Vulcan

The medical community has offered no solution to alcoholism. In fact they have greatly reduced funding for treatment and treatment centers. Naltrexone I guess can help with short term cravings but quiting for a month or so is not really the issue for most. I've seen hundreds of people quit for short terms and then start again. Even though the consequences are devastating. Why?

In my experience we are afraid of AA. We are afraid of life. we have fears, stress and many uncomfortable feelings that go away when we drink. We don't have the answers but think we should. We harm ourselves but want to be in full control. We are complicated beings.

Anyone who really knows AA knows that it is "treatment for the soul" or the psychology of the person who would drink if there were no other solution. Only one step mentions alcohol. Why? Probably because we don't know why we we drink when it is the cause of such severe consequence in our lives.

Change is a scary prospect, it's much easier to just imagine not drinking. That the alcohol is the problem not us.

Being an alcoholic is admitting to being mentally ill. Or actually insane(or acting insane). A heavy drinker who can stop and be happy for a long term (years)does not fall into this category.

I am an alcoholic. I need to treat the underlying condition that makes me want to drink to feel "right". Working in AA makes me fell right so I don't want to drink. I have to give it 100 percent for it to work. I have a sponsor. work the steps and help other alcoholics. I can tell you this action has given me a new life. I used to feel doomed and broken at my worst. But not now. A small price.

Good luck

Murray4x5

Just for the record, I've never slagged AA, and have said I'd crawl there on my knees if I felt the urge to drink was getting the better of me.

Nitey nite. Bedtime for me too

Murray

oak

I love this thread. Good things to talk about.

I have read people writing about being a 'real' alcoholic. And the idea that people who are unsure should try drinking moderately. I can see how it could encourage someone to believe that they don't really have a problem (or be willing to keep drinking to see if they are a 'real' alcoholic).

I do limit my time on SR and I am careful about what I read. There are many 'recovery' ideas that don't help me in recovery. Take what works for me and leave the rest (although it is hard not to be influenced by ideas that I don't find so helpful for me).

Outside of SR and alcoholism, I have seen this desire to show that you have the most suffering. Like among child abuse survivors, there can sometimes be a 'contest' to show that you were hurt the most (i.e., my pain is more valid or bigger than your pain). Or among people who need to lose weight- it's like the one who needs to lose the most weight is somehow the winner.

It's sad because it separates us.

skg

I've always heard that, "If you spot it, you got it," when dealing with judgment of others. THAT keeps me busy working on MY character defects. And I spot a LOT.

Spiritual Axiom and all that.

UniqueNewYork

Murray I have met a few people in AA like this and they have tried to get under my skin as well. I am close with a couple of people in AA and to those people I have at times tried to explain why I'm an alcoholic because I feel like I owe them my honesty and we are very open with each other.

The arrogant types you are talking about I pretty much write off. Its funny how my brain works; my first thought is to get angry and try to justify why i'm an alcoholic. Then I remember there are hundreds, thousands and maybe millions of reasons why I think I'm an alcoholic. These reasons can be as internal as "normal people don't debate if they could walk up to the bar and slam two shots and bring drinks back to the group hoping no one noticed what just happened". They can be as external as arrests and events that caused alienation of family and friends. These reasons are only shared with the people I trust and care about. The arrogant types you describe do not get to hear these because they aren't worth my time.

I try to remove all malice towards other people from me, but frankly Murray I have met enough of the type you describe that I just can't shut my mouth on this. These high and mighty types tend to be some of the most immoral and self righteous people you'll ever meet in your life. They are the people that will make some believe AA is a cult (its not). They are the ones screwing the drug addict that just came in and has a week of sobriety. They are the ones taking new comers through all 12 steps in a week during their first month of sobriety. They are the ones playing a game of "Lets see how many sponsees I can have and then brag about it". They are the loudmouths. They are devoid of self esteem on the inside while giving the appearance of being lost in pride on the outside. Lastly these people tend to have no life outside AA. If I sound arrogant in what I feel is my very accurate assessment of these people, have no fear. I don't kid myself that I am somehow better or worse "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

skg

Worrying about what others think (or don't think) about my behaviors kept me out of recovery for a very VERY long time. I found that, as long as I walked around waiting to be offended, I wouldn't have to wait long--it was like I had no skin and everyone else had rock salt. It wasn't until I had been beat down enough to become teachable that I found that people thought of me a LOT less than I thought of myself--part of my self-centered world I'd created. You know, I'm not much but, "I'm all I'm always on my mind..."

I can't STAND listening to drunk-a-logs nor reading them on recovery boards either. It's my opinion that the drinking profession has a lot of room for every type of drinker, and that I should focus on the solution rather than the problem. I also found out that if I wasn't the problem, or part of the problem, I had no business trying to fix it. "If I'm not the problem there is no solution." That meant that I was going to have to focus on ME, MY problems, and MY relationship with MY Higher Power in order to get MY self sober.

Alcoholics are sick people trying to get well. Upbringings, backgrounds, egos--all the other outside issues--need to be left at the threshold and that is one reason that AA always considers The Twelve Traditions as important as The Twelve Steps. The latter deals with learning how to get sober without killing ourselves, and the first deals with learning how to get sober without killing one another. 'AA's primary purpose is to, stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety." Period. That's the last line in the preamble.

My addictions were a ME dis-ease--I couldn't be at ease with me. I drank for me and me alone. I figured I needed to get sober for the same reasons. HOW I do that is the question, and I have no business telling YOU how to answer it. I CAN show you how I have been successful, though, if you ask. I tried a lot of 'em...

Humility at depth was a significant component in me asking for help--and I was only able to understand that after coming into the rooms of AA and listening (and relating) to others who had my problem. Not all of them did, but enough that I was able to come back to see if they'd come back--because they told me I should. Humility, in AA terms, is defined as, [i]"A clear understanding of what and who we really are, followed by a sincere attempt to become what we could be."* Learning what I was only came as a result of identifying with them and believing that they weren't (necessarily) pathological liars. Getting better meant trying what they tried and getting what they got: Sobriety. Everything else they had (or didn't have) was immaterial to my getting and staying sober once I worked the steps.

My point is this: Whatever the reason, I was responsible for getting sober, and I was ready to do whatever was required. No person, place, or thing will be allowed to stand between me and sober living today. That's not pompous; that's not arrogant; that's not reverse pride; That's survival.

*Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,[/URL] pp 58 (step 5)

No2

Actually, what you call reverse elitism is similar to what I always used as an excuse to tell myself for years that I wasn't an alcoholic. I have been in the Navy for 20 years and there are always examples of others in a worse condition than I was, or at least there was the appearance that they were worse off. Those guys were the alcoholics, the ones showing up 3 hours late or being carried back to the ship at 3AM, I just didn't want to stop drinking once I got going but I could if I really wanted to.

There were many days I had to hide it when I went in to work in the morning by chewing gum and using visine or sometimes not talking at all because I was so wasted I knew I was better off just leaning on the wall or pretending to be busy on a computer, chomping on gum. I always tried to believe that since I woke up on time I must be OK, even if I could barely stand up in the shower because everything was spinning and also knew that if there was a breathalyzer driving to work I'd blow way over the limit even at 7AM because I had 15+ beers and didn't stop drinking until I passed out in my chair at 2.

Then the next night I go and do it all over again. Sometimes I'd take a day off between though so I could prove that I was perfectly fine. If my wife started calling me an alcoholic I'd stop drinking for 5 days and tell her "see, I'm fine. Now I'm going to get a 12 pack" and I always brought her some food, snacks, etc. hoping that she wouldn't say anything. It usually worked too.

Bamboozle

I think some folks need to create a bizarre hierarchy of misery in order to feel better about the poor choices they've made in life.

Pissing contests of 'my alcoholism is more valid than yours' helps no one.

It is dangerous to suggest to someone ever so remotely that they don't have a problem. I stumbled on to this site precisely because I do have a problem with alcohol--coming here was no accident and I'll wager most everyone else who finds their way here can say the same. I’m fortunate that I did not listen to the people who told me I’m not a ‘real alcoholic’. If I had, I have no doubt I’d be drinking myself dead right now.

We aren’t here to diagnose--we’re here to help ourselves and others stay sober.

Murray4x5

We can all stand to read that again!

Murray

LaFemme

Gosh...I wish I had said that....brilliant post Bam...thanks

yeahgr8

This is the best part of the quote...this is exactly what happens and then you have the reverse which are people who think they aren't as bad as others and they too try and create a bizarre hierarchy of misery...

Anything i guess to actually avoid asking for help to another human being in person?!

omegasupreme

If the main problem centers in the mind and not in the body how can you diagnose yourself???

Supercrew

This is where self awareness comes in. Many people will never recognize they have the issue because it is mental. That's why they have interventions and such, and people still don't believe they are alcoholics.

But then there are others who are able to look at there drinking patterns and look at past problems they have had or maybe it is just one episode where we become introspective about our problem, and where we to coin a phrase, "become sick and tired of being sick and tired". Self diagnosis is the key to recovery, and it is the first step of AA.

omegasupreme

That question wasn't meant to be answered, at least not in words.

Self diagnosis is NOT the first step in AA. The first step in my Big Book has a "we" in it, AA is not self help. I can't help myself. If I could help myself I would have done it years before I hurt all those people, scorched employers, created debts, etc...if I could help myself I wouldn't need God, AA, forums like this and the list goes on.

LaFemme

Yes but not all of us are in AA

omegasupreme

I understand completely dear. My response was to Supercrew's post as working AA's steps were mentioned.

I lost count of how many topics were in this thread now, lol might be time for a lock, lol.

Supercrew

Well the first step is admitting that you are powerless over alcohol. If that isn't self diagnosis I don't know what it is. You helped yourself by going to AA, and I think the saying is that God helps those who help themselves...just sayin.

Murray4x5

I have no problem with the way things are going on this thread, it's flowing naturally, as a conversation would.

Murray

Antiderivative

Honestly, I think you are playing word games and being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. "We" cannot admit "we" are powerless over alcohol, unless you concede to your innermost self that you are an alcoholic.

From pages in 31-32 in the BB.

We do not like to pronounce any individual alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.

It seems pretty clear that the BB promotes self-diagnosis if you are unclear about your condition.

omegasupreme

When I got to AA I thought alcohol was my problem. If alcohol is your problem then just don't drink is your solution. I didn't know what it meant to be alcoholic. I didn't know selfishness and self-centeredness was the root of my problem. I thought I was drinking over my "issues". I learned drinking was my solution, it was the only way I knew to treat my spiritual malady. Because I am alcoholic I couldn't diagnose myself, see...I thought all that time alcohol was my problem. Then some people explained some things to me out of that book. Yes, stepping over to the bar to try some controlled drinking is a great way to see if you have the phenomenon of craving or not, but it never mentions the obsession of the mind. Read on after that paragraph and the book spends some time explaining the other piece, the mental twist. Bodily and mentally different is what the book says...that's two things, not one. My experience might be different than others but I had read the Big Book dozens of times and still had no clue what it meant to be alcoholic, fortunately some people were there to help me with these things. They helped me look at my experiences and decide if I were alcoholic or not. No one said, "Hey buddy, you drinking too much? Cool, your an alcoholic." Not my experience. That's why I said the question was not meant to be answered with words necessarily, but experienced.