spiritual/religious yet AA hasn't worked for me
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by Benowhere 
I have to say, I find it really baffling to hear what people are saying to you. Some of the things said are outragious. AA never had a 75% success rate, that is a myth! Bill W himself said 'you have no idea the failures we had'.
As usual, you are being accused of not 'working the program' because you don't think AA is perfect. Well, I am much more interested in truth. I have been to 700 meetings over 15 years, and I know it doesn't suit me, and it doesn't suit many many people. Most people recover completely without AA or steps, that is unarguable.
I have heard so many of people's dark secrets bandied about over the years in meetings, I found it 'normal' even though it wasn't.
I say to you in all honesty, if you feel AA is not for you, then fine. You are like most people, you are in the majority. It doesn't stop you having a perfect recovery. I quit smoking, drinking and other substances completely, at the same time, without any support program. If I can, you can. Good luck.
As usual, you are being accused of not 'working the program' because you don't think AA is perfect. Well, I am much more interested in truth. I have been to 700 meetings over 15 years, and I know it doesn't suit me, and it doesn't suit many many people. Most people recover completely without AA or steps, that is unarguable.
I have heard so many of people's dark secrets bandied about over the years in meetings, I found it 'normal' even though it wasn't.
I say to you in all honesty, if you feel AA is not for you, then fine. You are like most people, you are in the majority. It doesn't stop you having a perfect recovery. I quit smoking, drinking and other substances completely, at the same time, without any support program. If I can, you can. Good luck.
This is exactly my point...AA is getting a sponsor, working the steps and getting a spiritual awakening...why the hell would i go to 700 meetings for if it wasn't helping me, that's insane isn't it?
Like i said...stay away from the meeting makers will make it crowd and find someone who knows what they are talking about cos these kind of people will end up killing you...absolutely ridiculous comments!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by CarolD
MM.....
The Steps are the AA program.
The BB is a guideline for how to work the program.
Unless one is doing the work....not only sitting in meetings
one is not doing AA.
Save your confessionals to someone you do trust.
A minister ...a priest....your best friend.
My God already knows what I've done and forgives me.
War stories are not very interesting anyway.
Every AA member I know has their own...
The Steps are the AA program.
The BB is a guideline for how to work the program.
Unless one is doing the work....not only sitting in meetings
one is not doing AA.
Save your confessionals to someone you do trust.
A minister ...a priest....your best friend.
My God already knows what I've done and forgives me.
War stories are not very interesting anyway.
Every AA member I know has their own...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by Benowhere
I have been to 700 meetings over 15 years, and I know it doesn't suit me, and it doesn't suit many many people.
Also, I'm not quite grasping why you attended 700 meetings if it didn't suit you? Makes no sense to me but maybe I'm dense, eh?
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Mercurial--
Just a thought: if you are uncomfortable with AA, perhaps it is not the right approach for you. There are many others. SMART Recovery, for example, might be more to your liking. Or perhaps you could simply use the support available right here on this forum, as many others do.
OTT
Just a thought: if you are uncomfortable with AA, perhaps it is not the right approach for you. There are many others. SMART Recovery, for example, might be more to your liking. Or perhaps you could simply use the support available right here on this forum, as many others do.
OTT
Dismember
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Mitten, USA
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by Benowhere
AA has its own God, the God of the 12 steps, with set prayers and rituals, with the 'promises'. What if a God Of Your Own Understanding isn't compatible with the 'suggestions' of AA? In AA, you can only have a GOYOU if it agrees with the philosophy of the 12 steps.
I've stuck through AA and found it beneficial because I avoided the major pitfalls: not putting effort in, not getting a clear understanding of what's involved, and not needing AA to be "perfect" in all ways. But I can see how some may never be able to digest what AA requires of them. So although I encourage people to undertake AA with sincerity and patience, I am fine believing that some alcoholics simply aren't meant for the steps. No amount of "it works if you work it" can push some square drunks into round holes.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
I thought I was going to flunk out of AA because of the God thing, this afternoon I'm going to pick up a one year coin. Alcoholics Anonymous guarantees us the right to chose a Higher Power of our own understanding. You can have any faith or no faith. Spiritual experience is a drastic personality change and having the compulsion to drink removed, not necessarily chariots and trumpets blazing out of the sky. A lot of people don't understand that though.
Dismember
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Mitten, USA
Posts: 1,641
WakeUp, I know that and you know that, but I fear not everyone in AA knows that. 
Unfortunately, I have found a lot of people in AA and on SR who simultaneously claim that AA is open to all and has no creed, and then make statements that are extremely creedal and exclusionary. It might not be good AA but it happens and the offenders often refuse to accept that they are pushing religious dogmatism through AA. It concerns me some because I don't wish for people who's spiritual ideas are heterodox to the AA mainstream to feel unwelcome.
Unfortunately, I have found a lot of people in AA and on SR who simultaneously claim that AA is open to all and has no creed, and then make statements that are extremely creedal and exclusionary. It might not be good AA but it happens and the offenders often refuse to accept that they are pushing religious dogmatism through AA. It concerns me some because I don't wish for people who's spiritual ideas are heterodox to the AA mainstream to feel unwelcome.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 336
I have struggled with steps 2 and 3 in my 12 step program.
What I have personally concluded is that I have NO IDEA whether there is a GOD - even a GOMOU. I had a really hard time with this...but not anymore.
I believe in the 12 steps.
I think for me for now, admitting to the possiblilty that there is some higher power, whatever it may be, is good enough. I just don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know. But it's certainly not something that I will allow to hold me back.
I guess I could say that this is what I understand.
What I have personally concluded is that I have NO IDEA whether there is a GOD - even a GOMOU. I had a really hard time with this...but not anymore.
I believe in the 12 steps.
I think for me for now, admitting to the possiblilty that there is some higher power, whatever it may be, is good enough. I just don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know. But it's certainly not something that I will allow to hold me back.
I guess I could say that this is what I understand.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by Benowhere
I originally went to AA for 3 years solid, and was a 'golden boy', with a sponsor of many many years sobriety. I absolutely cringe when I think back to those days. I was like a Moonie or Jehovah's Witness for AA. I talked the talked, did all the steps, did everything asked of me, but something was missing, and that was, my life.
I returned to AA many times, redid the steps various times, had another sponsor of 30 years plus sober, brainwashed to the core. I had been brainwashed so many times that AA held the answers, and that I faced jails, institutions or death if I thought otherwise.
However, finally, after many years, I have seen the con-trick, and have no desire to ever return, as it is positively unhelpful to me.
Before you start telling me my posts are ridiculous, please tell me of ANY evidence for AA being effective? See if you are the same person in 5 years of indoctrination before you denounce me. You seem to have utterly surrendered to the program and philosophy of AA, so of course you will want to gain new recruits as part of your 12th step, I understand that. But what 'works' for you does not work for other people. You would do well to respect that if you intend to live a spiritual and not a religious life.
I returned to AA many times, redid the steps various times, had another sponsor of 30 years plus sober, brainwashed to the core. I had been brainwashed so many times that AA held the answers, and that I faced jails, institutions or death if I thought otherwise.
However, finally, after many years, I have seen the con-trick, and have no desire to ever return, as it is positively unhelpful to me.
Before you start telling me my posts are ridiculous, please tell me of ANY evidence for AA being effective? See if you are the same person in 5 years of indoctrination before you denounce me. You seem to have utterly surrendered to the program and philosophy of AA, so of course you will want to gain new recruits as part of your 12th step, I understand that. But what 'works' for you does not work for other people. You would do well to respect that if you intend to live a spiritual and not a religious life.
To be fair to AA, I will say that I wasn't miserable the whole time; in fact the first few years were pretty good. It certainly does feel good to be sober! But as my self esteem and cognitive abilities returned (I had a lot of individual therapy, which I credit for helping me rebuild my mind) I found the program was holding me back, continually reinforcing group norms above individual progress. For a long time the only thing that kept me coming was fear that without the program I'd relapse, like they said I would. Ultimately I had somewhat of an existential crisis and I did leave. For that, I was shunned as an apostate.
Your posts are not ridiculous. Your experience is just as valid as the experience of those who have had a wholly positive experience in AA, and I agree that those who criticize you for sharing your story are not practicing the humility they purport to value so highly.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by glitter
What I have personally concluded is that I have NO IDEA whether there is a GOD - even a GOMOU. I had a really hard time with this...but not anymore.
I believe in the 12 steps.
I think for me for now, admitting to the possiblilty that there is some higher power, whatever it may be, is good enough.
I believe in the 12 steps.
I think for me for now, admitting to the possiblilty that there is some higher power, whatever it may be, is good enough.
Perhaps this should be the start of a new thread?
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Poconos PA
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by BullDog777
This will not be a popular answer, but i have to be honest. I'm also not trying to be in any way disrespectful to anyone, this is just my experience...
I went to AA on and off for the better part of 8-10 years or so. It was not a good experience for me, personally.
I found it incredibly difficult to have to listen to a bunch of people sit in a room and talk about how booze ruined thier life on one hand and seeing the "oldtimers" tell everyone what to do on the other.
It didn't take rocket science for me to figure out that if i didn't drink, my life would be a heck of alot better. i didn't like that alot of these people came to rely so much on these rooms that they ceased to live much outside of them.
i also felt like it was almost selective brainwashing. you didn't do anything without talking to your sponsor. pray, share, call your sponsor, work the step you're on, go to a meeting....question nothing. everyone who had more time than you, knew more than you. it really rubbed me the wrong way. it seemed like it was alot like highschool where there were hierarchies and cliques and if you didn't blindly follow, you were an outcast and there was alot of judgement.
My faith is in God. My program is my relationship with him, and how i treat my fellow man. I too have lost faith in most people, and that's ok. I don't need them to stay sober. All i need is God, and my faith that he has taken away this horrible obsession from me. He has.
I was a bottom barrell drunk with no hope except for a foxhole prayer with my last day on earth. I got a miracle. I don't know why i did, but i was delivered from the hell of what my life was and i no longer rely or obsess on the poison that was killing me.
I chose to now live a life of gratitude. That's how i thank God for what he did for me. I am the father i always wanted to be and the husband i should have been 12 years ago.
It' not my way to try to change people or boast about things like that, but when the question you asked is posed, i have to tell you the truth as i see it. i believe i was the product of divine intervention.
AA has a statistic of about 1-13 people getting sober will stay sober longer than 90 days. To me, those are still some pretty slim odds. If man has let you down, maybe seeking God as you understand him with the same vigor you drink will deliver you from the same hell i was in.
bro-hug,
bulldog
I went to AA on and off for the better part of 8-10 years or so. It was not a good experience for me, personally.
I found it incredibly difficult to have to listen to a bunch of people sit in a room and talk about how booze ruined thier life on one hand and seeing the "oldtimers" tell everyone what to do on the other.
It didn't take rocket science for me to figure out that if i didn't drink, my life would be a heck of alot better. i didn't like that alot of these people came to rely so much on these rooms that they ceased to live much outside of them.
i also felt like it was almost selective brainwashing. you didn't do anything without talking to your sponsor. pray, share, call your sponsor, work the step you're on, go to a meeting....question nothing. everyone who had more time than you, knew more than you. it really rubbed me the wrong way. it seemed like it was alot like highschool where there were hierarchies and cliques and if you didn't blindly follow, you were an outcast and there was alot of judgement.
My faith is in God. My program is my relationship with him, and how i treat my fellow man. I too have lost faith in most people, and that's ok. I don't need them to stay sober. All i need is God, and my faith that he has taken away this horrible obsession from me. He has.
I was a bottom barrell drunk with no hope except for a foxhole prayer with my last day on earth. I got a miracle. I don't know why i did, but i was delivered from the hell of what my life was and i no longer rely or obsess on the poison that was killing me.
I chose to now live a life of gratitude. That's how i thank God for what he did for me. I am the father i always wanted to be and the husband i should have been 12 years ago.
It' not my way to try to change people or boast about things like that, but when the question you asked is posed, i have to tell you the truth as i see it. i believe i was the product of divine intervention.
AA has a statistic of about 1-13 people getting sober will stay sober longer than 90 days. To me, those are still some pretty slim odds. If man has let you down, maybe seeking God as you understand him with the same vigor you drink will deliver you from the same hell i was in.
bro-hug,
bulldog
Again though, congrats to anyone who works the steps and is successful. Whatever works to keep you sober is good in my book, it's just not for me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 401
Originally Posted by skg
Okay, first rule: Seek out THE PRINCIPLES of the program, not the personalities. Seek out someone who has what you want--and ask them how they did it. Don't get wrapped around the 'friends of AA' nonsense. AA is about The Steps and learning how to live life sober through a set of spiritual principles; not people. It's a proven fact that relying on the people of AA rather than the principles of AA will fail--miserably. We're a bunch of drunks, thieves, liars and cheats brought together to learn to live by a set of spiritual principles to become happy and usefully whole.
Ask questions about the principles and how to apply them. Get a sponsor whom you can trust, and develop a sponsor/sponsee relationship with them. Working steps will allow you to clear away your wreckage and develop some principles for trust and tolerance. We don't come in all fixed...
Sort of hard to complain about something you've not completely tried, isn't it? What part of the AA program isn't working for you?
Great, but it might be time to think about getting another one that is based on love rather than fear. I found that I was incredibly judgmental and terminally unique--all because of my fears of what I might lose, or what I might not get. Some guy in the meetings said, "You might wanna get another God, because the one you got is keeping you drunk!" Heck, I didn't even know I COULD choose one of my own understanding! Seems it was ME with all the fear and condescending judgment worrying more about the personalities in the rooms than getting sober--and what others thought about me. When THAT was revealed to me (and after I screwed myself back out of the ceiling), I managed to start looking at the steps rather than the people.
Ask questions about the principles and how to apply them. Get a sponsor whom you can trust, and develop a sponsor/sponsee relationship with them. Working steps will allow you to clear away your wreckage and develop some principles for trust and tolerance. We don't come in all fixed...
Sort of hard to complain about something you've not completely tried, isn't it? What part of the AA program isn't working for you?
Great, but it might be time to think about getting another one that is based on love rather than fear. I found that I was incredibly judgmental and terminally unique--all because of my fears of what I might lose, or what I might not get. Some guy in the meetings said, "You might wanna get another God, because the one you got is keeping you drunk!" Heck, I didn't even know I COULD choose one of my own understanding! Seems it was ME with all the fear and condescending judgment worrying more about the personalities in the rooms than getting sober--and what others thought about me. When THAT was revealed to me (and after I screwed myself back out of the ceiling), I managed to start looking at the steps rather than the people.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
The AA program I work is in the Big Book. It is a set of instructions to help those who want to have a spiritual awakening. It's not the only way, but it may be the easiest way, to have a spiritual experience for those who are recovering from alcoholism.
I hear things by people in meetings occasionally that make me wonder if I read the same book... Or things said as if the person sharing is reading from the same tired old cue cards... But since I read the book myself and know what it means to me, I also hear a lot from people who help me understand AA, the 12 steps, the program... and most importantly... help me understand myself...
Knocking AA based on what happens in a meeting, or something stupid somebody said or did, or looking for people who spout doctrine when they obviously never understood in the first place... knocking AA based on personalities... which is what I perceive this thread to be about... is not really about AA.
It's in the book.
I hear things by people in meetings occasionally that make me wonder if I read the same book... Or things said as if the person sharing is reading from the same tired old cue cards... But since I read the book myself and know what it means to me, I also hear a lot from people who help me understand AA, the 12 steps, the program... and most importantly... help me understand myself...
Knocking AA based on what happens in a meeting, or something stupid somebody said or did, or looking for people who spout doctrine when they obviously never understood in the first place... knocking AA based on personalities... which is what I perceive this thread to be about... is not really about AA.
It's in the book.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by Benowhere
I originally went to AA for 3 years solid, and was a 'golden boy', with a sponsor of many many years sobriety. I absolutely cringe when I think back to those days. I was like a Moonie or Jehovah's Witness for AA. I talked the talked, did all the steps, did everything asked of me, but something was missing, and that was, my life.
I returned to AA many times, redid the steps various times, had another sponsor of 30 years plus sober, brainwashed to the core. I had been brainwashed so many times that AA held the answers, and that I faced jails, institutions or death if I thought otherwise.
However, finally, after many years, I have seen the con-trick, and have no desire to ever return, as it is positively unhelpful to me.
Before you start telling me my posts are ridiculous, please tell me of ANY evidence for AA being effective? See if you are the same person in 5 years of indoctrination before you denounce me. You seem to have utterly surrendered to the program and philosophy of AA, so of course you will want to gain new recruits as part of your 12th step, I understand that. But what 'works' for you does not work for other people. You would do well to respect that if you intend to live a spiritual and not a religious life.
I returned to AA many times, redid the steps various times, had another sponsor of 30 years plus sober, brainwashed to the core. I had been brainwashed so many times that AA held the answers, and that I faced jails, institutions or death if I thought otherwise.
However, finally, after many years, I have seen the con-trick, and have no desire to ever return, as it is positively unhelpful to me.
Before you start telling me my posts are ridiculous, please tell me of ANY evidence for AA being effective? See if you are the same person in 5 years of indoctrination before you denounce me. You seem to have utterly surrendered to the program and philosophy of AA, so of course you will want to gain new recruits as part of your 12th step, I understand that. But what 'works' for you does not work for other people. You would do well to respect that if you intend to live a spiritual and not a religious life.
AA is a bridge to normal living
You don't live in AA, i got sober on 2 meetings a week
These are just a couple of things my sponsor told me first week...you see the difference in sponsors and making sure you choose the right one?
I worked the steps and recovered...you were hanging round with the crazy that has stayed abstinant for 20 years, of course you are going to end up going down the same route...he doesn't know any other!
I agree with you if we think just going to meetings, making the tea, putting out the chairs etc is going to get an alcoholic sober then we're crazy or4 simply not an alcoholic...it's all in the Big Book:-)
And its true what you say if another course works for someone then great...but this is not the case for the OP!
Ive only been sober since July 09! I don't know if i will be sober in 20 years time or even alive, if i keep doing what i have been doing then i will be...but that said what i do have is a roadmap to recovery from alcoholism (i mean really recovered from alcoholism) and a handful of real life friends who all have 20 years plus sobriety and are happy and are not crazy people living in AA...thats better than a pep talk and a couple of positive affirmations for the future!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 46
You see, this is what I mean. You presume that my sponsor was some 'crazy' with 20+ years sobriety. Well, he wasn't. He was and is, a beautiful guy. He had nothing to do with my issues with AA. And all I hear is that meetings aren't AA, the people aren't AA, sharing isn't AA, it's not 'really' about God, its about the 12 steps, if it isn't working, there's something wrong with you et etc ad infinitum ad nauseam. I have heard all of this before a thousand times. It's all so predictable. Stock answers to defend AA against all criticism, without any willingness to question the fundamental wisdom of XA. AA's program is nothing but a reworded, repackaged version of the Oxford Groups. And the Oxford Groups were one dangerous fundamentalist organisation.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hull, England.
Posts: 169
Wow this is getting a bit rough. As has been said, the program is the principles. Surrender, hope, commitment, truth, honesty, willingness, humility, brotherly love etc. These are far from dangerous. I work the steps so that i then have experience of the principles and know their benefits, I then continue to work them because i see it is a better way of living then MY way. AA does not claim to be the only solution, that would be nothing but egoism, we wish luck to those who can sober up in other ways.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hull, England.
Posts: 169
AA teaches me to be open minded. I can have opposing views to another person without either party being wrong and without the need for debate. We have ceased fighting anything or anyone. I cant help but be frustrated by many things i have read in this thread. We simply lay out our tools for inspection, we dont need to try and force people to agree with them. Principles before personalities.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by mercurial me
I appreciate your post but reading it was like getting hit over the head with a blunt instrument. I am not dogging AA, just asking others here how to approach it as a newbie who has been burned before
I suggest SMART Recovery because it is the largest of the alternative programs, is well-organized, and has online meetings where you don't need to reveal your identity at all (I think there are 17 per week now, so you can go to more than one a day if that's your thing).
I wonder if you think that because SMART Recovery isn't based on spiritual principles, it won't be a good fit for you either. If you truly view sobriety as something that comes from an outside source, then you might be right, but frankly the SMART tools are useful even if you DO believe that! In fact, many SMART members are also in AA.
SMART RecoveryŽ | Self Help for Alcoholism & Addiction
If you aren't interested in SMART, then I offer the following thoughts about AA (all of which are my opinion, based on my own experience).
1. Keep as your mantra the famous AA slogan: "Take what you need and leave the rest." Nothing is more important than this. Use what you like and leave the rest alone.
2. No not feel pressured into revealing things about yourself or your life, especially in meetings. Your concerns about having your personal business discussed among group members or outsiders are valid. If you do decide to reveal things, pick your confidantes carefully and take your time doing so.
3. You do not need to have a sponsor. This is a tool of the AA program, not a requirement. If you do use a sponsor, take your time making the choice. (NOTE: My own AA sponsor is a wonderful lady and even supported me in leaving the program: she is the only friend I have left from my AA days! But her being nice didn't make the program a good fit for me.)
4. If you are afraid of giving your lead, then don't give your lead.
I hope these suggestions are helpful. If not, please let us know more about your specific concerns and I'll do my best to give you more suggestions.
OTT
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