crisco

I read a lot of news as part of my daily routine and one of the major trends that I have noticed over the years is the UK appears to have worse problem with alcoholism than the US.

In the US, we have a pretty serious problem with alcohol, but it seems that press coverage of alcoholism makes it a more serious problem in the UK compared to the US.

NewUser

I was just in the U.K. for three years. You can get a two liter bottle of 7.5% strong white cider for like, 3.00 - drinking was never so accessible and cheap, and now I am paying the price for it.

Pints of lager in pubs, they start serving at like, eight in the morning. Walk into a breakfast pub any morning, and there are pints all over the tables.

CarolD

Time after time....I read posts here that say
"I l live in X....drinking is part of my culture"

Hmm...maybe so. What does that have to do
with your personal recovery from alcoholism?

When I was a drinker...everyone I knew was too.
Now that I don't drink....I know countless of others
who no longer drink.

I know for a fact.....the program of AA is wide
spread all over the world. The text book is
pubublished in 53 languages last I noticed.

And many people use other methods to find their solution
and move into a healthy productive future.....

If anyone is drinking and wishes to quit.....
forget about the location.....you too can win over alcohol.

feeling-good

CarolD - I think you make some very valid points.

I live in the UK and alcohol is cheaper than cigarettes - my vodka habit was costing less than £5 a day (what, maybe $6 or $7?) but I was still getting trashed on that amount.

I used to 'like' the drinking culture here in the UK, especially when I was younger (late teens, early to mid 20s) but I am now starting to loathe it. I still like pubs, restaurants, meeting places and things, but my main focus whenever I am / have been in such places is getting trashed as quickly as possible, as is the main focus for a lot of people. I don't know, it's weird, for sure.

I'm only truly on day 4 of sobriety, but I am already trying to imagine how I will socialise next time I am out. I don't want to avoid the places I meet people, but I need to find new alcohol free drinkies that I will love. That's something to work on.

There have been some moves in parliament to bring in a minimum price per unit of alcohol which has basically been squashed by the politicians. The objective was, in part, to try and discourage low and under age drinking. I wish it hadn't been squashed as maybe it would help some people, somehow.

I know for sure if I had had to pay double what I was paying for my vodka (which, haha, I don't even *like*), I would have still bought it, but I would probably have drunk a third to a half less per day as everyone has some kind of budget (or, at least, I work on a daily budget worked out between me and my husband). We are now starting to save those amounts away from our budget for something else.

Sorry, I have gone off track. All I was saying is I think there are definitely some not great influences in the UK re alcohol. But, there are also some not great influences in many, many european countries (e.g. France - you can buy some of the best tasting wines for almost nothing, even in gas stations - wth?!).

NewUser

Yeah, I have only been back in the states for a couple months, but before I left England, I remember them stamping out the legislation they were talking about passing, to make it so that Cider wasn't dirt cheap, If I remember right it was specifically Cider they were targeting, but to no avail. Carol, you have a good point about AA, and the book. I recently got the book at a Charity shop, it was as if it were laid out there for me by an angel... I am utilizing it - but yeah, the drinking culture over in the U.K. is like nothing I have ever seen, I grew up my whole life here in the U.S. - and the worst part is... I grew up in Panama City Beach Florida, - spring break capitol/party central, bars don't close till four in the morning... and you can buy alcohol again from convenience stores again when 7am rolls around.. and people still didn't drink as much as in the U.K. - where the bars close around eleven at night. (Just buy some from the store and drink at home after eleven, easy enough, and 'cheap as chips' as they say in the U.K!)

I'm so glad I am out of that mindset now, and never want to think like that again - but I do miss England and my wife there, we have separated, partly due to alcohol, but are both working to better ourselves and are communicating online quite often throughout the day. I'm going to check into a rehab facility while here to work on some issues I have with 'life' - mine has been a mess, We both have codependency issues to sort out first, so we don't slip back into the same pattern that we just escaped from.

LaFemme

Thanks for posting. I have been wondering about this myself.

While I agree with Carol regarding the fact chat the drinking culture of where you are shouldn't determine whether or not you get sober...I do think different societal aspects are important.

I would have been much worse much faster if alcohol were cheaper here. The fact that drinking is such an accepted social lubricant present a unique challenge to the newly sober and those trying to get sober. I am aware of the concept of walking in dry places in early recovery especially...that's a lovely idea but in certain places impossible to accomplish. For me to not be exposed to alcohol...I would have to quit my job, disown my family and have no friends (by the way none of my friends are alcoholics). People sometimes arrange happy hours at the dog park for crying out loud.

My point is..the more accepted and inexpensive drinking is in a society the easier it is to becomes an alcoholic and the harder it is to quit.

I can't speak for the UK but I have family in Denmark and I am very familiar with the drinking culture there...I have an aunt, uncle and cousin who are all alcoholics and its just accepted. In NYC I would say better than DK but probably heavier drinking then many other parts of the States.

NEOMARXIST

Yes the UK is full of booze and drugs. It is a massive part of culture and at 23 I had to detach from that culture. Booze is incredibly cheap. I used to buy 4 500ml cans of K cider 8.4% for about £3.00. You could beg that money.

However most people aren't alcoholics. They may be p*ssheads but they differ from me. Those like me either get sober or die. Simple.

I'm not really intersted in examining drinking culture anymore. I used to use my male working-class identity as a reason to buy into the whole drinking and smoking lifestyle. I used to love it but it would kill me and I grew out of love with it as I just ended up drinking alone on a bench and saw the reality of prison, institution or death.

In my recovery i make no excuses, I'm an alcoholic regardless of culture, socio-economic factors etcetc. I would have always been an alkie. My mind is vulnerable to chemical abuse and reliance on a chemical crutch. My creative musical streak makes it even more likely. However I just accept I'm an alkie and addict so regardless of culture then people like me always would drink themselves to death unless they lived a recovery program. I know that to be true for me, I would drink myself to death once back in the active insanity of alcoholism.

The UK is full of alcoholics and addicts, many unaware of the situation, and whose lives are to be totally destroyed as a result. There is a silver lining though if you use your recovery as a means to help those in active addiction or just realising that the culture they so readily embraced is destroying them.

Peace

Forwards

Yup, alcohol is everywhere in the UK and the culture would amaze many abroad. The drinks industry is fully aware of this and exploits it to the max.

Booze is the first thing you will see displayed on the end of the isle at any supermarket, in every corner shop, every petrol station. It is available 24 hours a day universally. Our leading chain runs a computer system that taylors the alcohol available to the local demographic completely automatically.

Drinking features prominently on British television (in fact it consumes the majority of screen time on our most popular soap). We don't have Cafe Perk, we have the smelly British pub. In the current plotline the locals all spend their time drinking in an undecorated fire-gutted basement.

Our university system revolves around alcohol. At a college I'll not mention, drinking with the post-grads was a necessary part of the interview process. The industry supplied free drinks as 'sponsorship' for weekend events hoping we'd work for them on leaving. There was a wine cellar made available at a discount on our meal cards. On special occasions free wine was served with every course. Our post-exam treat was access to the senior common room drinks cabinet. You may get hint here at where my drinking problem took hold but lest anyone think it glamorous, I literally watched a young lecturer drink himself to death (massive heamorrhage one night). It was covered up and never mentioned again.

A young 15 year old friend reports that her peer group spend every weekend drinking. We're not talking 'alco-pops' here - it's large bottles full strength vodka. Another friend (a local teacher) tells me every few weeks of the latest kids to be killed with or by drink drivers.

So yes, we have a cultural problem. Need I go on?

LaFemme

I used to adore "Absolutely Fabulous" I thought it was hilarious and the uptight daughter was an uptight pill. Rewatched some a Fe weeks ago and was horrified. Felt terrible for the daughter character and incredibly annoyed by the leads.

The reason to be concerned about these things in our culture's has nothing to do with our personal struggles...we at least have had our eyes opened. My concerned are the 15 year Oldsmobile who see this culture and are the next generation of alcoholics....provided they live Long enough.

Forwards

Yes it haunts me too. Here's the latest today from good old Blighty:

BBC News - Tackle children's alcohol misuse 'early', urges report

tsukiko

I live in London and met a lot of my mates as a student and almost all the americans commented on how frequently the English drank and often, as well, how hard. Now those same americans drink like the English people they seemed shocked by when they arrived. Most my mates, we work in and around London, drink at lunch and every evening as well. There's drink in the studio, free drink at launches, drink at gigs, drink at readings etc. A lot of us are involved in a charity that, through the arts, endeavours to raise money for those suffering addiction...at the launch of the charity there was a well stocked bar and at every event since.

Someone mentioned the TV show Absolutely Fabulous which was a parody of how London life is for the 'creatives', those in the arts, music and fashion industry - sad truth is, like lot of people say, satire and parody now don't even need to exaggerate the truth for comic effect...just reproduce it.

That said, I find people drink less in London than the north where a lot of folk still refer to ‘southerners’ as ‘shandy pants’ (people who can’t hold their drink). It’s harder, as I learned when I first arrived in London and was still alcohol dependant, to get drink between 1am and 8am. Night clubs tend to close at 3 ish and the only way to get drink is to call the 24 hour alcohol take out services (like ordering take out food, except the only things on the menu are spirits, beer, cider and wine). We used to joke that between 1am and 8am it was easier to get heroin and crack etc than a beer...and it was.

The tiny city I came from every single night the latest clubs were open (free entry) till 8am and then the first bars opened for the day at 8am serving alcohol. There's cafes where I come from that still serve a bottle of Stella as part of their English Breakfast (served between 5am and noon).

One of my closest mates when we were kids was alcoholic by the time she was fifteen...I gave her her first drink when she was thirteen . I was also physically dependant on alcohol by fourteen. Both my brother's became alcoholic. My dad was alcoholic. One in three of my mates (female and male) back north are alcoholic...one of my mates died due to chronic alcoholism, three more died in alcohol related accidents, another is currently dying and despite brain hemorages due to his alcoholism continues to drink.

I remember, before I was expelled from school (another shruggable reality where I grew up), a school friend came to sleep over one night. We were twelve. My mum was going away for a few days so I had the house to myself. She left us three bottles of wine for the evening, said hello to my mate and left. When the carnival came to town every year my mum would 'treat' me and my then best mate by buying a big botle of Jack Daniels and filling two 2l coke bottles, half with whiskey, half with coke and sending us out to enjoy the bright lights and fairground rides. I never once went back sick or throwing up off drink 'cause I'd always drank - and because I never went back sick my mum would say my drinking wasn't a problem. I drank my first full pint when I was three years old and daily through summer my mum would mix me and my siblings 'lager shandys' - half a pint of lager and half a pint of lemonade. When ‘alcopops’ came out when I was about eight, we drank them like lemonade.

The attitude back where I grew up is -that's life. Most the people I know are functioning alcoholics and chronic alcoholism is viewed like cancer...like it happens to you, like there's no element of choice. When someone dies at 30 or 40 'cause of drink everyone toasts a drink and says 'he had a good run of it'. When my mate (who was fifteen) died in an alcohol related incident people said 'yeah, its a damn shame, but if he hadn't have died that way who knows, its pointless to speculate, y'know...' It wasn't until I left and experienced different cultures that I realised 'wow, I don't have to live like this', but to go back and try say that to my mates my family up there is seen as trying to force ‘pansy-arsed southern culture’ on them...its an insult. And half the people I know in London who don't drink as much only abstain because they're worried what people will think of them or the calories in a glass of wine.

AmericanGirl

Interesting thread. I lived in London awhile when I was just starting drinking and I loved the drinking culture and the pubs (of course). I even loved that the tube had a built in curfew for me so that I could have an excuse to be passing out by midnight, which was early by the standard of where I had moved from. (Unless it was a big night and I was out at a club and got a minicab. Those nights usually had some other drugs involved, though.)

I do think America has two things going for it in terms of creating a culture of recovery: first, sniffs of Puritanism pervading our culture which support the idea of temperance; second, that our culture loves the idea of "starting over" or people taking on new challenges at any point in life. So I consider myself lucky to be here for that . . had I stayed in London, I think it would have been much harder to decide to quit. So when I read posts here from those of you who live in the UK, speaking about social aspects etc, I always feel extra amazed by the challenges you have overcome.

Also, this thread is helpful for me another reason. Out of all the people I worry about telling I've quit drinking, the friends from London are the ones who make me the most nervous and are the ones who seem to think complete abstinence is the most strange/bizarro.

I also want to travel more and often wonder what places I might visit. For a long time my list has included some heavy drinking places, but now I'm curious about seeing some places where drinking isn't such a huge part of normal daily living (or not at all).

reggiewayne

Good topic. I know the Big Book says to not (paraphrasing) worry about alcohol being legal - but it's hard not to. The fact that wherever we go it's available does make it harder to stop than other drugs. Also, the fact the we (even alcies) see alcohol as normal is baffling to me. We say, "We wish we could drink like a normal drinker"... IMO there is no such thing. To me a normal drinker is one that just simply doesn't enjoy the affects of alcohol. There is nothing "weak or flawed" in us when we get addicted to an addictive substance. IMO the flawed and weak are the people that don't get hooked. It took a lot of work on my part and strong will to get up to a fifth a day (lol)...

I hate how accessible and accepted alcohol is. There is no other drug on earth that is advertised, glorified, and pushed as hard as alcohol. I'm not bitter about it, I just think it's much more difficult to quit a substance that 90% of our society embrasses... So - I agree with you...

That's my two cents...

Stang

I haven't been to Europe. I think the US has its' own problem in this area so this isn't meant as criticizm but I just have to ask.....how the hell does anything get done over there? We have alcoholics at work just like anywhere else but if you come in drunk you are fired on the spot. I've heard of German contractors taking a case of beer up a ladder to drink while roofing a building. We have an agreement with a German mill that allows us to go over there and observe their mill in operation. The engineering is supposedly excellent. All anyone talks about who has been is getting drunk.
Again it is terrible here but I marvel at how smooth Europe seems to flow with a drinking culture worse than ours.

Isaiah

I totally believe that. There is a lot of drinking in the US, but I've lived almost entirely in college towns my whole life, which has colored my perception a lot. Particularly due to the strong influence of certain religious groups there are also a whole lot of people who do not drink at all.

Going to Eastern Europe was a whole new thing for me. In America it is not uncommon for people to celebrate something with a bottle of wine, in Poland and Russia people celebrate with a bottle of vodka. Getting drunk was a lot more respectable than it is here.

tomdecel

Changing continents, I will never forget three years ago, I spent a week at an all inclusive resort in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico.

I was shocked at my fellow Americans there on Vacation. They started serving beer at the pool at 10:00 AM. They were lining up 20 minutes before. Same for happy hour. There would be 30 to 40 people lined up when the free drinks bar opened. I have never seen so many intoxicated people in my life. Especially the first couple of days.

It was like they had discovered nirvana. Luckily I was not drinking at the time but I could not wait every day to leave the resort.

I have never seen bigger fools as at the dinner shows where they were passing out shots of tequila (watered down with 7-up of course) as part of the entertainment.

I don't think it was a cultural thing. I think it was just being in an environment where drinking was expected, condone and tolerated.

sampar

You should come visit Ireland, drinking here is a national passtime, For a small country of only 4million population , its horrific here, mainly because its acceptable!!!!

shaun00

The UK has been producing alcoholics for hundreds if not thousands of year.
much the same as alot of countries i guess..

Russian has a huge alcohol problem......same as parts of Australia.....
Ireland is another....

ive lived in lots of places in Europe...... Madrid.....east/west Germany......southern France./mid France.

With all of them, alcoholism followed me around like a bad smell........so for me it isnt about the culture that drives me to drink.......its alcoholism.

LaFemme

In Denmark, at the Carlsbeeg factory...they used to have cases of free beer for the workers and the truck drivers were allowed 3 a day (while on their routes!). I believe they have started to ration the free alcohol and there were protests over it.

Dee74

I have friends who can stay sober through the loooooong winter in Iceland...and other friends who can get drunk in a Muslim country like Dubai.

I don't doubt some cultures have more peer pressure than others, but if I can stay sober in Australia, it's definitely far from impossible

D