Could have screamed!!!!!
Persevere, Never give up!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Stellenbosch, South Africa
Posts: 882
this is an interesting one. I think it is a strong will power like i had never to touch the stuff due to my D being one, no matter how many rehabs, nothing worked. He died from it. Then there's my AH whose parents were A, he started his drinking from age 14 and didnt stop, until one morning in his late 20's he just stopped cold turkey, but now 3 years he relapsed and when i ask him, and tell him how well he was doing sober, all he can say is WAS I, i cant sleep, i cant stop the nightmares, i have to do this t sleep, he has no will power this time to stop! It is really hard once you have taken that first drink. Choice or not, it is a disease of the brain and i feel choice comes second best! My heart breaks for all A's - there battle is a daily living hell!
Heathen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
Posts: 2,567
Originally Posted by BullDog777 
i guess i'm going to be the one who says i believe it's a choice to drink or not to drink.
Let me qualify that statement for a moment before anyone gets mad at me.
I was diagnosed by an addiction specialist as a "chronic" alcoholic...or a bottom of the barrell drunk. i had been in and out of AA for more than a decade. i had been in numerous in patient rehabs, and i was drinking a 1/2 gallon of whiskey a night.
nothing worked for me. but it was my choice to live this way. NOBODY was holding me down, pouring this poison down my throat.
my longest time of sobriety was when i was in a mental hospital commited by my own choice.
my last bender lasted years and that last days of my life i was losing my sanity and dying. i prayed and then realized i was the one who had to make the choice to live and not die.
imo all this crap about being "powerless over alcohol" is true ONLY when you have a bottle in your hand. put it down and you have all the power in the world.
this is not a disease imo. it's an obsession. imo too many people label this as a disease to become a victim and fall hopelessly into a pit of BULLS#IT excuses about why they have to drink.
i'm not pointing this rant at anyone in particular, but as an overall statement. i respect everyones opinion, but this is mine. if you don't agree with me, that's cool, and it's your right.
like i said, i'm sorry about the rant, but this topic really steams me up.
Let me qualify that statement for a moment before anyone gets mad at me.
I was diagnosed by an addiction specialist as a "chronic" alcoholic...or a bottom of the barrell drunk. i had been in and out of AA for more than a decade. i had been in numerous in patient rehabs, and i was drinking a 1/2 gallon of whiskey a night.
nothing worked for me. but it was my choice to live this way. NOBODY was holding me down, pouring this poison down my throat.
my longest time of sobriety was when i was in a mental hospital commited by my own choice.
my last bender lasted years and that last days of my life i was losing my sanity and dying. i prayed and then realized i was the one who had to make the choice to live and not die.
imo all this crap about being "powerless over alcohol" is true ONLY when you have a bottle in your hand. put it down and you have all the power in the world.
this is not a disease imo. it's an obsession. imo too many people label this as a disease to become a victim and fall hopelessly into a pit of BULLS#IT excuses about why they have to drink.
i'm not pointing this rant at anyone in particular, but as an overall statement. i respect everyones opinion, but this is mine. if you don't agree with me, that's cool, and it's your right.
like i said, i'm sorry about the rant, but this topic really steams me up.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by stugotz
We most certainly do have a choice to drink or not drink. Alcohol has absolutly no power over me unless I put it in my body.
If you can choose not to drink, than just choose not to drink and your problem is solved. Easy Peasey.
If you keep failing to manage that choice, might want to consider what successful AA's have found to be true for them. They even put it in italics because it's so important.
Originally Posted by AA BB, 1st
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by keithj
If you keep failing to manage that choice
We all make choices, choosing to make the right one can make all the difference.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Don't know if this debate does much good, but it's kind of fun. You either have the power to stay away from that drink or not. Best way to find out is to give it a try.
I remember really disliking that 'disease concept' idea when I first heard it in rehab or outpatient treatment or one of those places I didn't stay sober after. I felt exactly like many of those posting here, that it abdicated responsibility. Seemed like a cop out idea to me. Seemed weak and spineless.
But I kept getting drunk. It didn't make any sense. I was a smart guy, had demonstrated considerable will power and determination in other areas of my life, but I could not stay sober for any length of time. I was forced by booze to get open-minded about other ideas. Got my butt kicked over and over.
Seems to me at this point with some long term sobriety behind me, that what I really didn't like about that 'lack of choice' or 'powerless' idea was not that it released me from personal responsibility. Anything but. It made me a fully accountable member of society and a responsible human being.
What I really didn't like was the blow to my ego. The "I have no choice" idea meant I was weak. Powerless. And my ego couldn't stand that.
My ego would much rather maintain the illusion that I was control, that I could beat this, that I was strong enough, than it would to admit defeat. Even if it meant I kept drinking, my ego clung desperately to the idea that I had enough power to overcome alcoholism.
I watch the hundreds of people come to this site and decide not to drink, and then subsequently fail over and over. What do we tell them? 'Get back on the horse, try again' and things like that.
And it works for some. And still others beat their heads off the wall again and again, always making that choice to not drink, and always failing, carrying that strong, powerful, intact ego all the way to the grave.
My ego suffered by realizing that I had lost the power of choice in drink. No doubt about it, that's a blow to my mighty self-image. But it's kept me sober, happy, and free.
The choice I know I can make, no debate, and my personal responsibility to make, is to sacrifice my ego in favor of my sobriety. It hurts a little, but whooowheee, I love the result.
I remember really disliking that 'disease concept' idea when I first heard it in rehab or outpatient treatment or one of those places I didn't stay sober after. I felt exactly like many of those posting here, that it abdicated responsibility. Seemed like a cop out idea to me. Seemed weak and spineless.
But I kept getting drunk. It didn't make any sense. I was a smart guy, had demonstrated considerable will power and determination in other areas of my life, but I could not stay sober for any length of time. I was forced by booze to get open-minded about other ideas. Got my butt kicked over and over.
Seems to me at this point with some long term sobriety behind me, that what I really didn't like about that 'lack of choice' or 'powerless' idea was not that it released me from personal responsibility. Anything but. It made me a fully accountable member of society and a responsible human being.
What I really didn't like was the blow to my ego. The "I have no choice" idea meant I was weak. Powerless. And my ego couldn't stand that.
My ego would much rather maintain the illusion that I was control, that I could beat this, that I was strong enough, than it would to admit defeat. Even if it meant I kept drinking, my ego clung desperately to the idea that I had enough power to overcome alcoholism.
I watch the hundreds of people come to this site and decide not to drink, and then subsequently fail over and over. What do we tell them? 'Get back on the horse, try again' and things like that.
And it works for some. And still others beat their heads off the wall again and again, always making that choice to not drink, and always failing, carrying that strong, powerful, intact ego all the way to the grave.
My ego suffered by realizing that I had lost the power of choice in drink. No doubt about it, that's a blow to my mighty self-image. But it's kept me sober, happy, and free.
The choice I know I can make, no debate, and my personal responsibility to make, is to sacrifice my ego in favor of my sobriety. It hurts a little, but whooowheee, I love the result.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 2,405
Originally Posted by Nicole23
If alcoholism wasn't a "disease", then health insurance would surely not cover rehab or detox services.
Why is that an addiction to alcohol is considered by many to be a "disease" yet you never hear of being addicted to nicotene as being a "disease"?
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Just my two cents worth: I think the word disease is used for lack of anything better. Because what I have, alcoholism, is indescribable and incomparable to other addictions.
Drugs like heroin are so addictive that if the average person subjects themself to it for long enough, they will become an addict.
If a non-alcoholic drinks alcohol long enough.....nothing happens. They don't become addicted. No matter how much they drink in high school, college, early career years. They can still walk away from that drink. I see that time and time again when I compare myself to my husband. He can drink a lot at a party and get drunk. But the next morning the last thought on his mind is: another drink. Me? Once I take that first drink, I can't think of anything else but the next one.
Now, I KNOW there is something different about me. When I took that first drink and started one of my many binges....I changed. My entire frame of mind changed. The alcohol did something that it doesn't do to other people. When I struggled with relapsing.....I was astonished to see how my entire character and mood would alter dramatically.
Of course the argument of choice comes into it. But for me, it wasn't to choose to drink or not to drink, to accept I am powerless over alcohol. It was a choice of a much broader theme: not the choice of drinking or not, but the choice of one lifestyle over another.
No, although I am an AA-er, I am not completely satisfied with the word disease, because my understanding of disease is that it is something I have no control over, such as cancer.
Yet, I know that my entire brain function and body chemistry is completely altered by alcohol in a different way than other people.
My view is that in another few decades, researchers will probably be able to come up with a better label. After all, the allergy and disease theory was established 70 years ago virtually without research.
But, I can't wait that long for someone to come up with a pleasing label. I know I am different when it comes to alcohol, I know too that I am strong and that I have faced some incredible life hardships with strength and resolve. I know I am not weak. But, when it comes to alcohol, all bets are off. I am different from the normal person when presented with a glass of wine. Call it disease, call it addicton, call it whatever. I just know, without a single doubt in my mind that there is something in my physical makeup that simply cannot tolerate the use of alcohol.
Drugs like heroin are so addictive that if the average person subjects themself to it for long enough, they will become an addict.
If a non-alcoholic drinks alcohol long enough.....nothing happens. They don't become addicted. No matter how much they drink in high school, college, early career years. They can still walk away from that drink. I see that time and time again when I compare myself to my husband. He can drink a lot at a party and get drunk. But the next morning the last thought on his mind is: another drink. Me? Once I take that first drink, I can't think of anything else but the next one.
Now, I KNOW there is something different about me. When I took that first drink and started one of my many binges....I changed. My entire frame of mind changed. The alcohol did something that it doesn't do to other people. When I struggled with relapsing.....I was astonished to see how my entire character and mood would alter dramatically.
Of course the argument of choice comes into it. But for me, it wasn't to choose to drink or not to drink, to accept I am powerless over alcohol. It was a choice of a much broader theme: not the choice of drinking or not, but the choice of one lifestyle over another.
No, although I am an AA-er, I am not completely satisfied with the word disease, because my understanding of disease is that it is something I have no control over, such as cancer.
Yet, I know that my entire brain function and body chemistry is completely altered by alcohol in a different way than other people.
My view is that in another few decades, researchers will probably be able to come up with a better label. After all, the allergy and disease theory was established 70 years ago virtually without research.
But, I can't wait that long for someone to come up with a pleasing label. I know I am different when it comes to alcohol, I know too that I am strong and that I have faced some incredible life hardships with strength and resolve. I know I am not weak. But, when it comes to alcohol, all bets are off. I am different from the normal person when presented with a glass of wine. Call it disease, call it addicton, call it whatever. I just know, without a single doubt in my mind that there is something in my physical makeup that simply cannot tolerate the use of alcohol.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Merritt Island, Fl
Posts: 1,164
Originally Posted by Nicole23
If alcoholism wasn't a "disease", then health insurance would surely not cover rehab or detox services.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,249
WOW!!! This thread did turn into a debate. I look at it this way. Regardless whether it is a disease, choice, or a compulsion, it is a problem. It kills and ruins lives. Destroys families, and hurts all of the people who love the alcoholic. It impairs the users ability to function normally. Alcohol is Ethanol. That is a very strong chemical. It has a very negative affect on the human brain.
Some people can drink, and have no problems, and others, become addicted and can't stop. It pretty much depends on the person, and the way that person's brain is wired.
It's not for any one of us to Judge. Only GOD is the judge of all.
If a person has an addiction to alcohol, and has lost everything they have ever loved due to that addiction, then they need help and guidance so they can rewire their thinking. It's called treatment, and recovery, and it is possible.
Regardless of what repercussions an alcoholic has suffered, the severely addicted will still drink. WHY???? Because they are obsessed with it, and can't think of anything else. That is what makes it a brain disease. When the pull to use, is stronger than the understanding of the consequences. When the user doesn't even want to drink or use, but still goes to get it and drink it,and then hates him or herself for doing it.
Some people can drink, and have no problems, and others, become addicted and can't stop. It pretty much depends on the person, and the way that person's brain is wired.
It's not for any one of us to Judge. Only GOD is the judge of all.
If a person has an addiction to alcohol, and has lost everything they have ever loved due to that addiction, then they need help and guidance so they can rewire their thinking. It's called treatment, and recovery, and it is possible.
Regardless of what repercussions an alcoholic has suffered, the severely addicted will still drink. WHY???? Because they are obsessed with it, and can't think of anything else. That is what makes it a brain disease. When the pull to use, is stronger than the understanding of the consequences. When the user doesn't even want to drink or use, but still goes to get it and drink it,and then hates him or herself for doing it.
Heathen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
Posts: 2,567
Originally Posted by Nicole23
If alcoholism wasn't a "disease", then health insurance would surely not cover rehab or detox services.
If alcoholism wasn't a "disease", then health insurance would surely not cover rehab or detox services.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: southern U.S.
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by stugotz
We most certainly do have a choice to drink or not drink. Alcohol has absolutly no power over me unless I put it in my body. I ran with that "cant help myself its a disease" excuse for years. Just sayin...
I'm not sure anyone here is using disease as an excuse!
I sure wasn't.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: southern U.S.
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by wren
I'm not sure anyone here is using disease as an excuse!
I sure wasn't.
I sure wasn't.
In general, I'm just dissatisfied with simplistic explanations to complex problems---alcohol addiction/alcoholism. Furthermore, I don't find them helpful for my recovery.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
One of the reasons I never labeled myself an acoholic in the past was because I didn't need it everyday. At the end when I quit I was drinking 4 or 5 days a week normally 6-12 beers during the day, and about 20-30 oz of vodka at night. I could stop for a day or three, but looked forward to my next drink. I drank about the same amount for 2.5 years, unless I was out with the boys( 2 or 3 times a month), then it could be 6-10 pitchers of beer, 3 or 4 shots, and then home to drink 20-30 oz of vodka before bed. Where I got tripped up on the alcoholic definition was I thought it was someone whose body required them to drink daily, and I could stop for a week or two if I had a physical coming up, and I quit for a year when the courts told me I had to 8 years ago. So I figured I could really quit anytime I wanted to, which was true, and pretty easy.....unless I had booze in my system. If I had 1-3 beers and I cut myself off I would just want to go to sleep, if I had 4 or more I was drinking to get my fill, and that's where I started to lose control of how much and for how long I would drink, if I was still drunk when I woke up I would want to drink more.
My question is, (even though I am not really into the label thing), would I be considered an alcoholic, or just a problem drinker? I always thought I was just a heavy drinker who liked to drink alot and drink often. After a long night or a couple of hard days in a row I would get the shakes, but I just considered those a symptom of a bad hangover. Please let me know what you think I would clinically be considered. (I'm still staying sober either way, because either way alcohol isn't good for me or my relationships).
My question is, (even though I am not really into the label thing), would I be considered an alcoholic, or just a problem drinker? I always thought I was just a heavy drinker who liked to drink alot and drink often. After a long night or a couple of hard days in a row I would get the shakes, but I just considered those a symptom of a bad hangover. Please let me know what you think I would clinically be considered. (I'm still staying sober either way, because either way alcohol isn't good for me or my relationships).
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
For me, knowing I had disease and not a moral failing made it much easier to get into recovery. Because I accepted I had a disease that could be treated, I could get help with it. I could take personal responsibility for pursuing the treatment. I never justified my drinking with the concept it was disease over which I had no control.
I don't know if that makes sense but I hope you all understand what I'm trying to say!
Love,
Lenina
I don't know if that makes sense but I hope you all understand what I'm trying to say!
Love,
Lenina
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by Supercrew
If I had 1-3 beers and I cut myself off I would just want to go to sleep, if I had 4 or more I was drinking to get my fill, and that's where I started to lose control of how much and for how long I would drink, if I was still drunk when I woke up I would want to drink more.
My question is, (even though I am not really into the label thing), would I be considered an alcoholic, or just a problem drinker?
My question is, (even though I am not really into the label thing), would I be considered an alcoholic, or just a problem drinker?
My own experience with that question is that it has been a journey of rigorous honesty that is fraught on all sides with denial. or something like that ... lol
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Posts: 266
I guess we know addiction is not only a question of choice precisely due to the existence of legal drugs that 99 percent of the population has tried at some point in their lives. I do not know anybody in Western societies who has never ever tried alcohol. I do not know anybody from my generation who has never ever tried a cigarette.
The friends I started smoking and drinking with are still present in my life. All of them have quitted smoking. All of them drink quite a lot in social occassions, not at all as a normal rule. And I come from one country (Spain) where it is socially/culturally normal to drink small amounts frequently. However, I believe non-alcoholics tend to spend weeks/months without a drink. They do not notice it.
There is something different about the way I feel when I drink, the constant 'obsession' about it. Is the fact that I became obsessed about alcohol and cigarettes a disease? Is obsessive behaviour a disease? What is the definitio of disease: I guess some kind of problem that affects your health due to reasons beyond your control... Obsessive behaviour does not seem very manageable for people suffering from it.
superscrew.... I do not know what to answer to your question. I have the same question myself sometimes due to this search for definitions. I was not drinking every day. I did stop many times for short periods of time, even periods beyond a year when I had my kids. I have never ever faced a bad consequence due to drinking: have never got into some bad argument with someone, missed work, DUI, NOTHING.
But I have picked up the bottle so many times after thinking it was a very bad idea...
The friends I started smoking and drinking with are still present in my life. All of them have quitted smoking. All of them drink quite a lot in social occassions, not at all as a normal rule. And I come from one country (Spain) where it is socially/culturally normal to drink small amounts frequently. However, I believe non-alcoholics tend to spend weeks/months without a drink. They do not notice it.
There is something different about the way I feel when I drink, the constant 'obsession' about it. Is the fact that I became obsessed about alcohol and cigarettes a disease? Is obsessive behaviour a disease? What is the definitio of disease: I guess some kind of problem that affects your health due to reasons beyond your control... Obsessive behaviour does not seem very manageable for people suffering from it.
superscrew.... I do not know what to answer to your question. I have the same question myself sometimes due to this search for definitions. I was not drinking every day. I did stop many times for short periods of time, even periods beyond a year when I had my kids. I have never ever faced a bad consequence due to drinking: have never got into some bad argument with someone, missed work, DUI, NOTHING.
But I have picked up the bottle so many times after thinking it was a very bad idea...
Last edited by Dee74; 07-16-2010 at 03:29 PM. Reason: clarity
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