Afraid there is no help for me
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,759
I tried and failed, so many times, to stay sober, with and without AA. I thought I was hopeless and ready to give up. But with the support of my friends here and my wonderful counselor I never gave up and in two days I'll have seven months sober - my longest time sober since I started drinking three years ago. I was a chronic relapser and if I can do it, anyone can!
There is hope for everyone if they just hang on to it and don't let go.
Just realized I'd already posted this same thought... I might be sober but I'm still goofy sometimes... and my memory is older than I am...
There is hope for everyone if they just hang on to it and don't let go.Just realized I'd already posted this same thought... I might be sober but I'm still goofy sometimes... and my memory is older than I am...
Last edited by least; 07-06-2010 at 03:10 PM. Reason: duh!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On a big rock in the middle of the ocean
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by Fandy 
Tuffy, you do what works for YOU....I think you are just saying that you're ready to explore all the options.
I don't shout my problems from the rooftops, I post here almost daily, read a lot and try to concentrate on getting up and putting one foot in front of the other every morning....some days are better than others...but what I've seen is the most sobriety I've had in years and a different way to live, feel better physically and stave off most of my depression....exchanging, interacting here is my way of working through.
I don't shout my problems from the rooftops, I post here almost daily, read a lot and try to concentrate on getting up and putting one foot in front of the other every morning....some days are better than others...but what I've seen is the most sobriety I've had in years and a different way to live, feel better physically and stave off most of my depression....exchanging, interacting here is my way of working through.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On a big rock in the middle of the ocean
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by mcluhan
Hi Tuffnut,
I can relate to the problems you're having. I also went through a hellish Klonopin withdrawal and was using alcohol to “medicate” myself to make the anxiety (and other symptoms) go away. I also have a history of anxiety and depression, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.
Anyhow, about 8 months ago I was finally able to completely quit drinking. It took about 3 to 4 months to feel much improvement, but after that I noticed that my panic attacks went away and I could sleep much better. I'm feeling a little better each month. I really think alcohol was responsible for most of benzo protracted withdrawal symptoms. Give your nervous system a rest and a chance to heal.
I can relate to the problems you're having. I also went through a hellish Klonopin withdrawal and was using alcohol to “medicate” myself to make the anxiety (and other symptoms) go away. I also have a history of anxiety and depression, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.
Anyhow, about 8 months ago I was finally able to completely quit drinking. It took about 3 to 4 months to feel much improvement, but after that I noticed that my panic attacks went away and I could sleep much better. I'm feeling a little better each month. I really think alcohol was responsible for most of benzo protracted withdrawal symptoms. Give your nervous system a rest and a chance to heal.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On a big rock in the middle of the ocean
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by least
Just realized I'd already posted this same thought... I might be sober but I'm still goofy sometimes... and my memory is older than I am...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: north providence r.i.
Posts: 17
tuff,hang in there man,i have been sober since jan09,and i tell you it does get better one day at atime.hit your knees in the morning,say the 3rd step prayer.and through out the course of the day the serenity prayer.go to b.b.meetings,and 12 -12 meetings.and get involved with a home group.keep on keepin on.god bless.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 20,458
Tuffy; i've learned that drinking exacerbates my depression/anxiety which triggersmore drinking which triggers more depression.
there is nothing *wrong* with what you are doing or how you are writing...you jumped in and started a really interesting conversation.
AA is not the "only way" and there are many different ways people cope and many different opinions, but most everyone exudes kindness and support.
there is nothing *wrong* with what you are doing or how you are writing...you jumped in and started a really interesting conversation.
AA is not the "only way" and there are many different ways people cope and many different opinions, but most everyone exudes kindness and support.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by TuffNut
To Rob: It does seem like you may have missed where I outlined the things I am willing to change about my life, and the first steps I'll be taking to get there. That isn't all I'm going to do, but I guess if I don't have it all figured out before I even get started, that isn't good enough for you. I don't know what to say to that except I can't please all the people all the time, and I realize you have good intentions, which I appreciate whether we agree or not.
Okay, you got me all wrong. I apologise for any misunderstandings. I do. Let me see if i can do better with this post.
I didn't think I missed your words here and i'm totally on your side with your intentions and you owning the credit for taking action:
Originally Posted by TuffNut
My intention was to explain the challenges that got me here, why it has taken me so long to do something about it, what I have already learned, and why I'm really scared to undertake this challenge that lies ahead of me. If I didn't intend to try to change it in spite of those fears (hopefully with the support of the people on these forums) I wouldn't have posted. I'm going to give myself some credit for that.
My comments were not about you personally, and i did say that in my past post, even followed the statement with a nice smilie, okay? Just about the struggle with alcoholism that will manifest, imo, when you stop drinking is what I'm talking about. My point is if you are using alcohol to self-medicate there are established reasons for that. When the alcohol stops not only will you have your original challenges but you will also have the new problems of quitting drinking. That will be alot on your plate.
My listing of: serious justifications, excuses, fears, delusions, resentments, and selfish ideations is simply my way of supporting you by stating what i believe you are already going through now and will continue to go through just after you quit alcohol, but sans alcohol so just imagine. Even simple detoxes are not simple if you get my drift here. Please, all these things are stock items in any alcoholic experience, imo, and so why not you? The thing is, i'm not convinced you appreciate just how much the state of living in alcoholism is being used to self-medicate your problems away from your awareness. I understand you are insightful, but still, you know? You mentioned in some post you thought of yourself as a textbook example, so please understand that my list of challenges is not personal but wholly examples of alcoholism. One of the greatest and most vile "tricks" alcoholism plays on us is when it plays the denial card. We all like to think we know why we are drinking, and we do for personal reasons, but we dont for alcoholic reasons, you know? If we did know, we would have stopped the moment we understood because it is that bad. No, the real acceptence and understanding of alcoholism becomes a real part of our thinking and our living after we stop drinking and not before, imo. We call it sober living.
If I have crossed a line with you in my thinking your alcoholic then so be it. Only you know for sure, but I also know what i know, and offered that in support, and nothing else. I dont even know you, so please see that my comments were not personal or whatever against you, even though it came across that way for your experience. Dont discount yourself, but please see where I'm coming from if you can.
The other thing is saying you cant please all the people all the time is absolutely correct, and i stand with you in owning that wisdom. You dont have to please anyone but yourself in your recovery. It is a hard lesson learned for us alcoholics that we have to own up and not be intangled in getting sober for others ongoing, so it is good that you know that already. Being inspired by others to get and stay sober is a wonderful thing of course and is not pleasing others, imo, but again falls under pleasing ourselves.
I appreciate that you know i have good intentions whether we agree or not. I own all my posts to whomever they may be, including mine to you, and yeah we may not agree but we are still who we are nonetheless and we are sharing with each other for a common purpose.
I look forward to more sharing of dialogues ((Tuffy))
Warmly and Sincerely,
RobbyRobot
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 4
Hi TuffNut,
OMgoodness - I love AA. Through AA I have been given life. TuffNut - it works - try it again - please. Go in there, listen, don't question - give it 90 days. Make no promises, have no deep discussions - see if you can just connect to the program. Let go of what you do or don't believe. TuffNut - you deserve to live - not struggle. To live vs. suffering - give it go. What have you to lose.
OMgoodness - I love AA. Through AA I have been given life. TuffNut - it works - try it again - please. Go in there, listen, don't question - give it 90 days. Make no promises, have no deep discussions - see if you can just connect to the program. Let go of what you do or don't believe. TuffNut - you deserve to live - not struggle. To live vs. suffering - give it go. What have you to lose.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On a big rock in the middle of the ocean
Posts: 43
Robby:
I guess it was the "selfish ideations" that bugged me, and it felt like you were disregarding the concrete steps I had mentioned, such as exercising and having a plan in place to address the anxiety before it hits, instead of setting myself up to fail before I even get started. I have a lot of problems that I'll never deny, but being selfish isn't one of them. Maybe that's just one of those nifty little recovery slogans that I love so much, but it read like a personal judgment on me. I judge myself enough, and I don't need any help from anyone else in that particular department.
I don't think I'm physically dependent on alcohol for various reasons that I don't even want to try to explain here, but there's no question that I'm not a healthy drinker. A line has been crossed (I could tell you exactly when and what it was, but it's not important to the narrative). Someone else said something to the effect that I haven't hit rock bottom yet, because if I had I wouldn't be saying certain things. I don't think I have to hit bottom to want to stop drinking, or to seek out support, or to succeed when I do. So while I honestly DO NOT think I'm special, I simply don't buy the "one size fits all" mentality that some people in recovery subscribe to; or what often goes along with it, which is the feeling that anyone who doesn't must be in denial and can't be helped until they buy the whole thing hook, line and sinker.
I have strong opinions about things, but they are all well informed by experience and education. It doesn't mean I'm not open to new ideas, but there are some ideas that I have already considered and have studied the evidence so thoroughly that it is unlikely that any new information is available or able to sway me. As it applies to this situation, my decision to never take psych meds again, and that AA is not for me, are my only entrenched positions. People are welcome to try to change my mind, but when I tell you the reasons I disagree, that doesn't mean I'm being resistant to new ideas, or that I'm in denial, or most importantly, that I don't want and need your help and support in other ways.
What it boils down to is that I'm an information geek and I love a good discussion of the issues. This isn't just any topic, though, because it's so highly personal, and I'm in a fragile state and probably overly sensitive to criticism. I respect differences of opinion, but I don't like to be misrepresented or misunderstood.
I probably got myself into more trouble with this, but I ask that you please try to read it in the most neutral tone possible, because that is how I intended it.
Tuffy
I guess it was the "selfish ideations" that bugged me, and it felt like you were disregarding the concrete steps I had mentioned, such as exercising and having a plan in place to address the anxiety before it hits, instead of setting myself up to fail before I even get started. I have a lot of problems that I'll never deny, but being selfish isn't one of them. Maybe that's just one of those nifty little recovery slogans that I love so much, but it read like a personal judgment on me. I judge myself enough, and I don't need any help from anyone else in that particular department.
I don't think I'm physically dependent on alcohol for various reasons that I don't even want to try to explain here, but there's no question that I'm not a healthy drinker. A line has been crossed (I could tell you exactly when and what it was, but it's not important to the narrative). Someone else said something to the effect that I haven't hit rock bottom yet, because if I had I wouldn't be saying certain things. I don't think I have to hit bottom to want to stop drinking, or to seek out support, or to succeed when I do. So while I honestly DO NOT think I'm special, I simply don't buy the "one size fits all" mentality that some people in recovery subscribe to; or what often goes along with it, which is the feeling that anyone who doesn't must be in denial and can't be helped until they buy the whole thing hook, line and sinker.
I have strong opinions about things, but they are all well informed by experience and education. It doesn't mean I'm not open to new ideas, but there are some ideas that I have already considered and have studied the evidence so thoroughly that it is unlikely that any new information is available or able to sway me. As it applies to this situation, my decision to never take psych meds again, and that AA is not for me, are my only entrenched positions. People are welcome to try to change my mind, but when I tell you the reasons I disagree, that doesn't mean I'm being resistant to new ideas, or that I'm in denial, or most importantly, that I don't want and need your help and support in other ways.
What it boils down to is that I'm an information geek and I love a good discussion of the issues. This isn't just any topic, though, because it's so highly personal, and I'm in a fragile state and probably overly sensitive to criticism. I respect differences of opinion, but I don't like to be misrepresented or misunderstood.
I probably got myself into more trouble with this, but I ask that you please try to read it in the most neutral tone possible, because that is how I intended it.
Tuffy
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 729
"BTW I've been reading these forums for several months, and I have become very fond of you all. I have serious doubts I can ever achieve what many of you have, but I need to try. "
Ever heard the saying that alcoholism is a prison with the key inside the cell?
I read the entire thread and I see some great advice and many many excuses. I can only re iterate two things;
1-It can be done
2-There is always Hope.
I have never used AA but I respect and love the one organization that has turned millions.
I am not religious(I am an atheist).
I am four years sober.
You should have no doubt at all. I am proof of that.
I sincerely hope you find the inner resolve to let sobriety take you to a new life.
Best.
Ever heard the saying that alcoholism is a prison with the key inside the cell?
I read the entire thread and I see some great advice and many many excuses. I can only re iterate two things;
1-It can be done
2-There is always Hope.
I have never used AA but I respect and love the one organization that has turned millions.
I am not religious(I am an atheist).
I am four years sober.
You should have no doubt at all. I am proof of that.
I sincerely hope you find the inner resolve to let sobriety take you to a new life.
Best.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Sharing Dialogues
Originally Posted by TuffNut
Robby:
I guess it was the "selfish ideations" that bugged me, and it felt like you were disregarding the concrete steps I had mentioned, such as exercising and having a plan in place to address the anxiety before it hits, instead of setting myself up to fail before I even get started. I have a lot of problems that I'll never deny, but being selfish isn't one of them. Maybe that's just one of those nifty little recovery slogans that I love so much, but it read like a personal judgment on me. I judge myself enough, and I don't need any help from anyone else in that particular department.
I don't think I'm physically dependent on alcohol for various reasons that I don't even want to try to explain here, but there's no question that I'm not a healthy drinker. A line has been crossed (I could tell you exactly when and what it was, but it's not important to the narrative). Someone else said something to the effect that I haven't hit rock bottom yet, because if I had I wouldn't be saying certain things. I don't think I have to hit bottom to want to stop drinking, or to seek out support, or to succeed when I do. So while I honestly DO NOT think I'm special, I simply don't buy the "one size fits all" mentality that some people in recovery subscribe to; or what often goes along with it, which is the feeling that anyone who doesn't must be in denial and can't be helped until they buy the whole thing hook, line and sinker.
I have strong opinions about things, but they are all well informed by experience and education. It doesn't mean I'm not open to new ideas, but there are some ideas that I have already considered and have studied the evidence so thoroughly that it is unlikely that any new information is available or able to sway me. As it applies to this situation, my decision to never take psych meds again, and that AA is not for me, are my only entrenched positions. People are welcome to try to change my mind, but when I tell you the reasons I disagree, that doesn't mean I'm being resistant to new ideas, or that I'm in denial, or most importantly, that I don't want and need your help and support in other ways.
What it boils down to is that I'm an information geek and I love a good discussion of the issues. This isn't just any topic, though, because it's so highly personal, and I'm in a fragile state and probably overly sensitive to criticism. I respect differences of opinion, but I don't like to be misrepresented or misunderstood.
I probably got myself into more trouble with this, but I ask that you please try to read it in the most neutral tone possible, because that is how I intended it.
Tuffy
I guess it was the "selfish ideations" that bugged me, and it felt like you were disregarding the concrete steps I had mentioned, such as exercising and having a plan in place to address the anxiety before it hits, instead of setting myself up to fail before I even get started. I have a lot of problems that I'll never deny, but being selfish isn't one of them. Maybe that's just one of those nifty little recovery slogans that I love so much, but it read like a personal judgment on me. I judge myself enough, and I don't need any help from anyone else in that particular department.
I don't think I'm physically dependent on alcohol for various reasons that I don't even want to try to explain here, but there's no question that I'm not a healthy drinker. A line has been crossed (I could tell you exactly when and what it was, but it's not important to the narrative). Someone else said something to the effect that I haven't hit rock bottom yet, because if I had I wouldn't be saying certain things. I don't think I have to hit bottom to want to stop drinking, or to seek out support, or to succeed when I do. So while I honestly DO NOT think I'm special, I simply don't buy the "one size fits all" mentality that some people in recovery subscribe to; or what often goes along with it, which is the feeling that anyone who doesn't must be in denial and can't be helped until they buy the whole thing hook, line and sinker.
I have strong opinions about things, but they are all well informed by experience and education. It doesn't mean I'm not open to new ideas, but there are some ideas that I have already considered and have studied the evidence so thoroughly that it is unlikely that any new information is available or able to sway me. As it applies to this situation, my decision to never take psych meds again, and that AA is not for me, are my only entrenched positions. People are welcome to try to change my mind, but when I tell you the reasons I disagree, that doesn't mean I'm being resistant to new ideas, or that I'm in denial, or most importantly, that I don't want and need your help and support in other ways.
What it boils down to is that I'm an information geek and I love a good discussion of the issues. This isn't just any topic, though, because it's so highly personal, and I'm in a fragile state and probably overly sensitive to criticism. I respect differences of opinion, but I don't like to be misrepresented or misunderstood.
I probably got myself into more trouble with this, but I ask that you please try to read it in the most neutral tone possible, because that is how I intended it.
Tuffy
Others as well as you have strong thoughts and feelings [me included LOL] on this, that, and the other thing in these forums, and thats a good thing overall. None of us are experts on the other guy, or all things, and so with that in mind we can all share ourselves from a level playing field, yes?
I'm not gonna agree with some of your stuff, nor you mine; as we both accept our differences civilly, which is well and good; I will support and dialogue with you, and you know that I will also be honest and forthcoming too.
Im grateful for your thoughtful, honest response post, Tuffy.
Robby
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 84
Congrats on your self awareness and willingness to open up on this forum. I think it's very impressive that you have the insight to want to stop drinking before it becomes a bigger problem in your life. Your situation is complex and while perhaps not unique, it is distinctive. I agree with the idea that an on-line support forum may be very useful to a person who is not good in groups.
I'm new to this forum too, although I have 13 years' sobriety by the grace of God but not through AA. I was a bit taken aback by the responses to my initial forum post that I found to be rather insistent, even strident that I try AA, going back to step 1 perhaps. I think those members simply wanted to encourage me in a system that is dear to them and that they credit for saving their lives.
I also initially received the comments about an alcoholic's selfishness, and I, too, rejected that notion. I have lots of evidence in my life of my unselfishness. However, in time I began to see that my selfishness is expressed in very subtle ways, even in my thoughts, in my behavior patterns, in the quality of my intimate relationships. It's a very personal, individual, habitual thing with me. I'm not trying to tell you that you are selfish, but maybe your definition of selfishness is too narrow. I now appreciate that my selfishness harms me as much as it does anyone else.
I had just one other observation to add to all that's been said. I have a lot of experience with doctors, specialists, social workers, therapists and counselors, not due to alcoholism but for other reasons. At one time I was shocked by the disparity of skill and knowledge exhibited by various medical professionals. Of all the therapists I know one stands head and shoulders above the others, and it was quite evident during our very first phone conversation. There's no doubt about his talent, expertise and ability. I've also known a couple of excellent physicians, who just outshine dozens of others. I would like to believe that one of those - a star in the medical or therapy field - could help you sort out all of your history and present troubles. It's simply a matter of how to find that person, but if you are mistrustful it's probably irrelevant.
I think the steps you have taken are to be applauded. Hope you are well tonight, Tuffy.
I'm new to this forum too, although I have 13 years' sobriety by the grace of God but not through AA. I was a bit taken aback by the responses to my initial forum post that I found to be rather insistent, even strident that I try AA, going back to step 1 perhaps. I think those members simply wanted to encourage me in a system that is dear to them and that they credit for saving their lives.
I also initially received the comments about an alcoholic's selfishness, and I, too, rejected that notion. I have lots of evidence in my life of my unselfishness. However, in time I began to see that my selfishness is expressed in very subtle ways, even in my thoughts, in my behavior patterns, in the quality of my intimate relationships. It's a very personal, individual, habitual thing with me. I'm not trying to tell you that you are selfish, but maybe your definition of selfishness is too narrow. I now appreciate that my selfishness harms me as much as it does anyone else.
I had just one other observation to add to all that's been said. I have a lot of experience with doctors, specialists, social workers, therapists and counselors, not due to alcoholism but for other reasons. At one time I was shocked by the disparity of skill and knowledge exhibited by various medical professionals. Of all the therapists I know one stands head and shoulders above the others, and it was quite evident during our very first phone conversation. There's no doubt about his talent, expertise and ability. I've also known a couple of excellent physicians, who just outshine dozens of others. I would like to believe that one of those - a star in the medical or therapy field - could help you sort out all of your history and present troubles. It's simply a matter of how to find that person, but if you are mistrustful it's probably irrelevant.
I think the steps you have taken are to be applauded. Hope you are well tonight, Tuffy.
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