kurtrambis

I hear people in AA meetings say they drank when they were happy, I also hear more so with females that they drank to try and ease depression.

A few questions first how can somebody who doesn't suffer depression sponsor somebody who does, they drank for totally different reasons.

If you drink to ease depression do you think that means you are not what you might call a real alcoholic.

The AA promises describe somebody who is being cured of depression, yet not all alcoholics are depressives, apart from the depression caused by alcohol itself. Infact from studies I have read most male alcoholics have no more incidence of depression than the general population.

Also the 12 steps are clearly about morality, does mean being a depressed means you are immoral?

Toronto68

I actually don't understand what you mean. I think I remember you trying to see a connection between shyness and immorality once too. I didn't understand that either. Are you dealing with the notion that you are or were a bad person?

keithj

Because the reasons I drank have no bearing on why I am an alcoholic. And those reasons have no bearing on AA's solution for alcoholism.

The Doctor's Opinion talks about classifying the types of alcoholics. The one in denial, the happy drunk, the depressive, etc. It's a trap in the book. The conclusion is IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER. If you have this particular reaction to booze, you are one of us. And the same solution that works for me will work for you.

You have a point, Kurt. If I think I drank for 'reasons', maybe I'm not alcoholic. Take care of those reasons and the drinking problem will be solved.

But that's not me. The difference is plainly spelled out in the first 8+23 pages of the book.

If you've been around AA for a while, and don't understand this, I suggest getting with a knowledgeable sponsor and getting a real First Step experience for yourself. It's more work than trying to define differences between me and the alkie that has been there before, but it's the pathway to freedom.

Identifying differences allows my ego the illusion of control.

keithj

The 12 Steps are not about morality. I've seen hundreds of alcoholics fail to stay sober because they falsely believed that if they just 'got good' or tried to live a moral life, they wouldn't drink. That kind of thinking kills people.

'If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago....We could try with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there.'

This is exactly the open-mindedness that is required. You have this idea or belief about the steps and about alcoholism that is blocking you from the experience. Set aside that pre-conceived notion about what alcoholism, the Steps, and a higher power is, and just have the experience that comes about by taking a few simple actions.

paraphrase aabb1st

Pagekeeper

Bill W, the cofounder of AA, suffered from severe bouts of depression for nearly his entire adult life--even after he got sober.

Clinical depression is a mental illness. It's a chemical imbalance in the brain that involves neurotransmitters.

Alcoholism is an illness that involves an adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body and a mental component, similar to amnesia or delusion, that the person will not have this adverse reaction when alcohol is put into the body.

Alcohol is also a depressant. It affects the central nervous system. It can cause depression in those who do not have a neurotransmitter imbalance. Typically their depression fades when they cease drinking. The clinically depressed person will continue to suffer from depression, even after they cease drinking, because the alcohol is not a component. Their brain chemistry is the cause of their depression.

Some alcoholics may believe they are drinking to relieve their depression, but a REAL alcoholic drinks because they are alcoholic, not because they are depressed. They'd be drinking with or without the chemical imbalance. The drinking may make their depression worse, though, as alcohol is a depressant.

In other words, they are separate illnesses.

BullDog777

no...it dosen't matter why you drank.

as alsoholism is defined:

It is characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health, relationships, and social standing.




no. depression is defined as: a state of low mood and aversion to activity.

it has nothing to do with ethics or morality.

Mark75

The 12 steps are about a spiritual awakening and for many, improves our morals.

I don't think morality and depression are on the same spectrum, though one who is immoral may have more regrets, guilt, whatever and if they have any morals at all, would be more likley to suffer depression.

NEOMARXIST

I am an alcoholic because I physically cannot stop drinking once I start. That will always be the case for me and drinking alcohol. So in that respect I am different to many other people as they don't develop terrible craving once they start. They can stop after 4 pints. I could never stop untill I was passed-out. Unless I was physically locked in the house (Which happened to stop me drinking more on a few occasions). That is not what happens to most people when they drink alcohol.

I did use alcohol to self-medicate mental health issues too. I found it worked very well temporarily. I also drank when I was feeling normal and well. I didn't need an excuse to drink. I drank because I loved drinking. I loved drinking way more than most people. I am an alcoholic. I also suffered from terrible clinical depression a few years ago. Untill I stopped drinking then I would never be able to recover from that. I would say most alcoholics are depressed. You never really see a trouble free happy smiley alkie to be honest.

In accepting myself as an alcoholic and becoming a recovering alcoholic then I am able to face underlying psychological issues that ned to be addressed for me to reach where i want to be in my recovery.

If I ever drank again then I would drink untill I blackout and wouldn't be able to stop untill I was too physically exhausted or I got arrested or such like. The whole terrible cycle would be set in motion again.

Pinkcuda

Why don't you just quit going to AA meetings Kurt??

kurtrambis

Have done, although went back recently out of desperation. had people who know nothing about me implying things about me.
Infact during my time away from AA i had my best period of sobriety. That flies in the face of if you stop going to AA meetings you'll drink that some AAers claim.

Mark75

Why do you think that was that the best period of your sobriety, that time away from AA?

24hrsAday

Everybody is Different.. i Know People Who Have Done Just Fine Without A.A.. Myself.. i Feel i Need it..

kurtrambis

AA makes me feel guilty mark and guilt equals depression which makes it harder for me to resist drink.
In the AA meetings i attended i feel there is a defeatist attitude to life, ambitions are frowned upon.
I believe hope just as much the realisation of the hope is good for psycholgical well being
I don't believe ambitions are bad especially when I am only in my early thirties! when you think of yourself as powerless over life I think it is unhealthy.
being powerless over life equals depression which means its harder to resist drink.
There is another reason why I didn't drink in that period but that's personal.
I once said to my doctor that the only way i can quit drink is if my life gets better or it gets worse.

Maybe AA is right and that i want too much out of life I really really hope not

Mark75

I never heard that. I wonder sometimes if I don't want enough!

If you haven't completely written off AA... A couple of suggestions for you...

Read the Big Book (again). Nothing in there about setting your sights low... In fact, I get the opposite message.

Find another group to attend meetings at (?).

Try to understand why you got that "message" in the first place... Lots of possibilities... Maybe you have to keep your sobriety first and right now being overly ambitious in other areas of your life may take away too much energy?

Kurt... I am only limited by my own self... I can do anything I want except drink. I have not yet arrived to a place where I can say that I have achieved everything I want nor am I doing all I can (should) in my career, family, other non recovery things... I am working on it.

Mark

Freedom1990

Those two statements are contradictory. If your time away from AA was your best period of sobriety, it makes no sense to go back.

Have you ever gotten a sponsor and actually worked those steps, Kurt, or were you just attending meetings?

keithj

Kurt, in reading your last couple of posts, an idea comes to me.

I don't know your situation, so I'm out on a limb and shooting in the dark. There is nothing about the AA program I know that involves resisting a drink. Nothing.

A set of actions that lead me to a spiritual awakening that removes my problem with alcohol and takes me to a life better than I've ever known. That's the AA program I know.

Some of the things you say you hear at meetings, some of the attitudes expressed there, are not the AA program of recovery.

Far too common is a group of people sitting around not drinking and talking about their problems and calling it AA. I agree with you. There is a vast feeling of despair and hopelessness in those rooms, interrupted occasionally by a cynical laugh.

It's like my old view of organized religions. I would find some members of whatever group who were really **** poor examples of that group and use them as a reason to discount the group (or religion, in this demonstration).

Same with AA. I can find some really **** poor, un-spiritually fit people who call themselves members of AA, who are in no way living the program of AA, and decide that AA sucks. I can do that even today. It feels good, and my ego thrives on it.

But that doesn't work for me. It doesn't keep me happy, and it most likely won't keep me sober. Instead, I sought out those who carried the message of AA. Those who could show me the directions for having a spiritual experience of my own. Truthfully, they weren't necessarily easy to find. But they are there. They have a Big Book and they actually follow the principles outlined in that book.

yeahgr8

Just wanted to say i wholly support what Keith has said and it has and continues to be my real life experience.

I found it very easy to find someone to fault AA in the few times i went when i thought it wasn't for me and i understand now that this will always be the case for any newcomer or regular member for that matter.

The steps led to a spiritual awakening for me, thats what got and keeps me sober. I went there for me, found someone who i thought could guide me through the steps and worked my ass off and what the Big Book said, whether i believed it really or not for a time, came true!

By now you know that i have regular once a week sessions, on skype now, with my CBT counselor who is recovered 20 years himself. We discuss all sorts of things and life issues. He is a great tool for me, so are my books that leave me with a topic for the days, so is SR etc...but first i had to get sober and to get sober i had to work the steps...then i have all the time in the world to get additional help for anything else:-)

BullDog777

i was in and out of AA for 10+ years. i was on a "revolving door" policy so to speak. i kind of felt like alot of the people went there to learn to stay sober and ended up hiding there for the rest of their lives. to me, that wasn't much better than drinking.

i drank for another 3 years until i almost died from this.

when i was knocking on death's door one day, i had a spirtual experience that was so profound that my obsession to alcohol was removed from me. i do think about it every now and again, but it's not an obsession and a compulsive knee jerk reaction to breathing, the way my life once was.

i took up alot of hobbies to occupy my time and i've become much more spiritual than i ever was in AA.

in the end, i chose not to attend AA, but it did plant a seed in learning a few tools for me stay sober.

AA isn't the only way to stay sober, but it is indeed a GREAT way if it has what you want.

i just wanna be happy and not drink. there are lots of ways to do that. AA probably has the best odds, but i was never much of a gambler anyway.

Norther

I drank alcoholically because I am an alcoholic. Drinking made my depression worse, but depression is not why I drank. Drinking made my liver worse too, but did my liver cause my drinking? Nope.

shaun00

i go to therapists and have a regime to deal with depression which has been prominant throughout my life..diagnosed with clinical depression when i was a nipper....15/17....
the support networks and therapist are well versed in depression and know what they are doing...

i go to AA the 12 steps and ultimately god...to deal with alcoholism which has been prominant in my life since..16 onwards.
sobriety is not down to me.........my part is clearing a path to allow a power in to keep me sober..

i do not mix the two.........i do not look at the two as related or use the same methods to deal with them....

being diagnosed for depression was wonderful.........it was the perfect bs excuse to get rat faced.
oh woe is me.......im depressed get me a drink......no wonder i drink like i do..blah blah..

i mentioned it to my sponsor early on........just to set the ground in case i drank..lol...
and he said "i dont know sh@t about that but i can show what i did about my drinking.".......