Boleo

First of all - the steps are about spirituality, not morality (church people might not see the difference).

Also, I may not know much about clinically depression, but I do know a lot about about despair. When I tried to quit drinking on my own, despair was was akin to going into a tail-spin for me. I could never pull out of it on my own. Sometimes it lasted for days and I was beginning to suspect it might be some form of clinical depression. However, because I lacked health insurance, I put off seeking professional help.

Then I got a job as an over-the-road truck driver and my despair became worse than ever. Fortunately, I was working steps 10,11 & 12 daily by then and found that if I focused on them 24 by 7, it relieved all of my emotional problems, not just my obsession to drink.

artsoul

Hi Kurt - I don't have any answers, really, but my initial response to your post(s) is that it sounds like you're making yourself miserable trying to figure it all out - like maybe you're overthinking this whole thing (?). Of course, maybe you're sober and happy and I'm reading things into what you said.

I think AA is a great program which has saved countless lives, but it can only do so much if a person has other mental or emotional issues. Unless we stop drinking, though, it's really impossible to address anything else in our lives. So, for me at least, the number one priority is taking advantage of all the positive support and direction I can get so that I don't drink today. I try to let the rest go.

p.s. You said AA makes you feel guilty? Can you be a little more specific as to what about it seems to make you feel that way?

Toronto68

I think that is what I said to myself.

I personally don't know what my situation is. That is, when you look at what Pagekeeper drummed out above, I don't know whether I have got a lingering case of depression after quitting drinking (which supposedly lasts a good while) or whether the underlying reality that would have been there without drinking is there, and now in an uncomplicated state. If anyone has spotted me saying that more than once, they will be thinking, "Would you get it checked already." Do you have an opinion about your depression?

I'm not sure I understand inside about the guilt though. I understand intellectually but I don't think I share the experience right now. Do you feel guilty if you picture the fact that you interact on this site sometimes? There must be something about the way you are taking in what is said at the meetings that is making you feel wounded. Unless someone is being an out and out _____ in the way they are speaking, and that's always possible. Not everyone is the same, but people usually seem to feel better about themselves when someone else has felt similar things.

If you want more for your life, that sounds good to me. What was the "desperation" that made you go back to AA, were you afraid you would drink again and thought that was the way to go?

I don't mean to play 20 questions, but I am trying to see if I can be helpful and keep the topic going with you.

hps

I'm reading "Undoing Depression" by Richard O'Connor, which seems to be quite a good book on depression, and up to date on the science.

It states:
"There is a very clear link between depression and substance abuse, especially alcohol. Some people who have depression become alcoholics because drinking temporarily numbs the pain. Some alcoholics, when sobered up, find that they are terribly depressed, more so than is accounted for by the effects of their drinking alone. Others become depressed because cleaning up the mess they've made of their lives is overwhelming."

The Steps are helpful with me living my life after I've made a mess of it. This is life-affirming, and to me more spiritual than moral. In contrast, my drinking was soul-destroying. Depression can be soul-destroying as well. Does this mean sufferers of either are immoral? Not to me, but their lives are out of whack and they owe it to themselves to live better.

Dee74

I don't know much about clinical depression, and I know even less about AA - that being said, if it was me, I'd be seeing somebody who really knew about clinical depression for my depression, and someone who really knew about alcoholism for my alcoholism....

I wish you well, Kurt. Keep posting

D

Brucel

Kirt, I've worked the steps twice now and the only time moral is mentioned is in the fourth step. For me it was there to use as a litmus test against my behavior and my resentments. I agree with so many of the posts, and so much with those who referred to co-occuring disorders like substance abuse and depression. A mental health professional in California cannot and will not attend to an depressed person who is an active alcoholic. It's because some of the symptoms overlap and are too hard to identify. That said, if you stop drinking and it sounds like you can, then try seeking outside help and going to meetings with an opened mind. In chapter 5 it says "there are those too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, BUT many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest". Honest with themselves as to whether or not they have lost the ability to control their drinking. Hey bro, I hated how my behavior made me feel when I was sober, and it's a process. It's not the only way. Except for me it was. Good Luck and God Bless

yeahgr8

Different experience for me, i'd been through all sorts of treatment over the years and the only people i had ever met with 20 years plus sobriety were AA. I have never met a person with that length of sobriety who has not attended AA at all...so when i was serious and ready i only really had one choice?!

I'd love to meet someone with 20 years plus sobriety who has never been to AA, i would have so many questions for them and it would be fascinating to see how they went about it and look for the similarities:-)

Don't get me wrong ive met lots of people who have had serious consequences from drinking and cut down o the point that they make drink once a year if that but i kind of knew that wouldnt work for me!

kurtrambis

There's been studies that show there are many people who have achieved long time sobriety without AA. Frank Skinner a british comedian for one.

It's skewed thinking in AA I have met 100s of alcoholics both active and sober.
Outside AA I have met very few and am actually not in contact with any of them now.
I should think people outside AA don't generally go around introducing themselves as hi my name is X and I am an alcoholic and I have been sober X years

Dee74

I know two guys with about 30 years sobriety - one's in AA one's not.
They both seem like pretty miserable buggers to me.

I'm not sure what that proves.

If I live long enough, I'm up for that chat in about 16 and a half years Cliff.
Keep it free

D

yeahgr8

I totally agree but the impression given on SR sometimes is that they are on every corner and as AA stats are always bought into question and people asking for the proof in the puddding so to speak...i would like to meet at least one person in my life, bearing in mind that i meet a lot of people as i have been in 5 different countries in as many months, that is an alcoholic and has achieved long term sobriety without AA.

I do know a person that went to rehab and then never went back to cocaine and doesnt go to meetings but again this is a step rehabas most are so we are back to the AA program again?!

Im not saying AA is the only way honestly...i just want to meet someone in person, i would love to spend some time with them and askthem how they did it etc...you must be curious about it like me?

My sponsor says that people do just stop drinking and he has seen it, im seeing him next week and ill ask him...i just want to meet one as i am fascinated by it...with 20 years because i would want some proof that it wasnt a few years run:-)

Just to add....i have also heard of a guy who went to AA for a while then went into the Church and never went back to AA and i have heard of guys that go to AA for a number of years, get a new family etc and then dont go back and they are still happy and sober...but once again at some point AA!

yeahgr8

You should be careful what you say! You might just get a 'stranger' knocking on your door in 16 and a half years...lol