blackouts and alcoholism
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
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In my experience yes, i have known heavy drinkers that blacked out regularly meet a new girl and just stop drinking or cut down significantly and stay like that...
Of course the reason they stopped drinking is to keep the girl, the job etc...otherwise they would have had to sacirfice those things for the blackouts...
Of course the reason they stopped drinking is to keep the girl, the job etc...otherwise they would have had to sacirfice those things for the blackouts...
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Huh...?
If you have blackouts from drinking alcohol and you are not an alcoholic then apparently some other biological change is taking place inside the body that is caused from drinking alcohol.
Continuing to drink would be unwise.
If you have blackouts from drinking alcohol and you are not an alcoholic then apparently some other biological change is taking place inside the body that is caused from drinking alcohol.
Continuing to drink would be unwise.
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,013
Certainly in England yes. Every weekend in every town and city scores of revellers will be blacking out and getting carted off in ambulances, police vans, passed out on street corners etc. I would say 95% of those aren't alcoholics. They are just binge-drinkers like most young people in England.
They will also be able to be around the Pub beer garden today and have a few pints during the afternoon and then go and drink a coffee when they get home... wtf? I never could comprehend drinking beers and just getting the buzz going and then killing it by drinking a non-alcoholic beverage...
But then I am an alcoholic.
They will also be able to be around the Pub beer garden today and have a few pints during the afternoon and then go and drink a coffee when they get home... wtf? I never could comprehend drinking beers and just getting the buzz going and then killing it by drinking a non-alcoholic beverage...
But then I am an alcoholic.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by NEOMARXIST 
Certainly in England yes. Every weekend in every town and city scores of revellers will be blacking out and getting carted off in ambulances, police vans, passed out on street corners etc. I would say 95% of those aren't alcoholics. They are just binge-drinkers like most young people in England.
They will also be able to be around the Pub beer garden today and have a few pints during the afternoon and then go and drink a coffee when they get home... wtf? I never could comprehend drinking beers and just getting the buzz going and then killing it by drinking a non-alcoholic beverage...
But then I am an alcoholic.
They will also be able to be around the Pub beer garden today and have a few pints during the afternoon and then go and drink a coffee when they get home... wtf? I never could comprehend drinking beers and just getting the buzz going and then killing it by drinking a non-alcoholic beverage...
But then I am an alcoholic.
totfit
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ft Collins, CO
Posts: 1,273
My understanding of blackouts is that those that experience the are physically different than those that don't. My take on this is that these people (including myself) are born "alcoholic". Now that doesn't mean that alcohol is necessarily all consuming or that they can't stop drinking. It does mean that something different occurs when they drink. While certainly not an AA Big Book thumper, not really much for AA personally (I believe to each their own), I think the description of the Alcoholic in the Dr's opinion is an excellent take on this.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Alcohol-induced blackouts are far more common than most people believe. They are only, usually, the combination of too much alcohol in too short a period of time, and they can happen to anyone. A person definitelt does NOT need to be an alcoholic, or someone who may become an alcoholic in the future, to have a blackout.
There's a lot of information regarding blackouts out there. I would suggest just using the search engine of your choice and searching....: blackouts; or, more specifically, alcohol-induced blackouts.....I did and found a plethora---lots of good stuff, too.
NoelleR
There's a lot of information regarding blackouts out there. I would suggest just using the search engine of your choice and searching....: blackouts; or, more specifically, alcohol-induced blackouts.....I did and found a plethora---lots of good stuff, too.
NoelleR
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by totfit
My understanding of blackouts is that those that experience the are physically different than those that don't. My take on this is that these people (including myself) are born "alcoholic". Now that doesn't mean that alcohol is necessarily all consuming or that they can't stop drinking. It does mean that something different occurs when they drink. While certainly not an AA Big Book thumper, not really much for AA personally (I believe to each their own), I think the description of the Alcoholic in the Dr's opinion is an excellent take on this.
Regardless that you are not an AA person, i would suggest reading the passage again and getting an understanding of why you are physically different from non-alcoholics:-)
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Join Date: May 2009
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Kudos is often gained within groups of people who'm blacked-out during the night out. The UK's whole drinking culture of the young is based upon binge-drinking and blacking out to a massive extent. The differnce is that most blackout a few times and learn from this and get to "know their limits".
The differnce with the alcoholic is that the notion of a "limit" is a foreign concept. When I start drinking I will drink untill I passout. Usually proceeded by a blackout where i remeber nothing for a good few hours. Also when non-alcoholics come around from a blackout they will feel terribly ill and the thought of alcohol will make them vomit. For me I will look to take a drink immediately to feel better again. I will wish to drink untill I pass out again. Cue inevtable daily drinking. I cannot participate in "life" if I take that first drink for this very reason. I can do nothing but drink and cocoon myself in my own little world, not a part of this one. Very alluring yet so destructive and harmful to myself and everyone else around me. Drink would take me to the gutter.
The differnce with the alcoholic is that the notion of a "limit" is a foreign concept. When I start drinking I will drink untill I passout. Usually proceeded by a blackout where i remeber nothing for a good few hours. Also when non-alcoholics come around from a blackout they will feel terribly ill and the thought of alcohol will make them vomit. For me I will look to take a drink immediately to feel better again. I will wish to drink untill I pass out again. Cue inevtable daily drinking. I cannot participate in "life" if I take that first drink for this very reason. I can do nothing but drink and cocoon myself in my own little world, not a part of this one. Very alluring yet so destructive and harmful to myself and everyone else around me. Drink would take me to the gutter.
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fenway Park
Posts: 119
Do you mean blackout and pass out from drinking too much, or waking and not remembering anything?
Personally, I rarely remember what I do. If I hang out with a group of friends, I have to talk to them all the next day individually to piece the night together.
Personally, I rarely remember what I do. If I hang out with a group of friends, I have to talk to them all the next day individually to piece the night together.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Blackout is when you are conscious and lose time, i.e. cannot remember slots of time...
Like someone saying i can't even remeber getting home last night...part of their memory is gone...
As far as i remember this is caused by the body shutting down parts of the brain that are not necessary in the state of extreme intoxication to avoid further compications and keep the basic functions going like breathing and consciousness...it's actually very dangerous state to be in...
Like someone saying i can't even remeber getting home last night...part of their memory is gone...
As far as i remember this is caused by the body shutting down parts of the brain that are not necessary in the state of extreme intoxication to avoid further compications and keep the basic functions going like breathing and consciousness...it's actually very dangerous state to be in...
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
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From "Under The Influence" and it is my experience too
I continued to drink despite blackouts.
I continued to drink despite blackouts.
Page 108 & Others}
The middle-stage alcoholic has probably been having blackouts from time to time. Blackouts are a very distinctive feature of alcoholism, and one symptom that clearly distinguishes alcoholics from non-alcoholics. The events which occur during an alcoholic blackout are not forgotten; they are simply not stored or are imperfectly stored in the brain. There is nothing there to be recalled later.
During a blackout, the alcoholic may be functioning normally and aware of everything that is happening around him. He continues to talk, walk, eat, drive a car, conduct a business deal, or make love to his wife. Yet on sobering up, he has no memory trace of what occurred during a certain time period -- it could be a minute, an hour, or even several days. In the early stages of the disease, blackouts are relatively infrequent, but as the disease progresses, they occur more often and last for longer periods of time.
Jack attended a series of weekend meetings held in a city 90 miles from his home. The last meeting ended in midafternoon, and Jack retired to the bar with several friends. It was happy hour, and the bartender announced a special on martinis: six ounces of gin for just $2.00. Jack drank four specials and then decided to order dinner before he drove home. With dinner, he drank a bottle of wine. It was late when he started driving, but he remembered watching the moon rise over the low hills. The next thing he knew and could later recall, he was travelling 110 mph and was 25 miles past his exit. He had driven 100 miles in a blackout.
It is not difficult to imagine how frightening blackouts can be. The alcoholic may wake up in the morning with no recall of the events of the previous evening. He gets out of bed, afraid to inspect his clothes -- did he get sick? Then the question occurs to him: "How did I get home?" He looks out the window, fearful that the car will be missing. He does not remember driving home.
The car is there, and he has another, even more frightening thought: "Did I hit something or someone?" He runs outside and looks at the front end. He searches the seats for clues to help him piece the lost time back together. Humiliating thoughts race through his mind: "Did I disgrace myself? Will my friends talk to me? How can I find out what happened when I am too embarrassed to admit that I don't remember?"
Blackouts can be so frightening that they make the alcoholic question his sanity. For the first time he may realize that he is in deep trouble with alcohol. Despite his increasing problems, however, the middle-stage alcoholic rarely considers giving up drinking...
The middle-stage alcoholic has probably been having blackouts from time to time. Blackouts are a very distinctive feature of alcoholism, and one symptom that clearly distinguishes alcoholics from non-alcoholics. The events which occur during an alcoholic blackout are not forgotten; they are simply not stored or are imperfectly stored in the brain. There is nothing there to be recalled later.
During a blackout, the alcoholic may be functioning normally and aware of everything that is happening around him. He continues to talk, walk, eat, drive a car, conduct a business deal, or make love to his wife. Yet on sobering up, he has no memory trace of what occurred during a certain time period -- it could be a minute, an hour, or even several days. In the early stages of the disease, blackouts are relatively infrequent, but as the disease progresses, they occur more often and last for longer periods of time.
Jack attended a series of weekend meetings held in a city 90 miles from his home. The last meeting ended in midafternoon, and Jack retired to the bar with several friends. It was happy hour, and the bartender announced a special on martinis: six ounces of gin for just $2.00. Jack drank four specials and then decided to order dinner before he drove home. With dinner, he drank a bottle of wine. It was late when he started driving, but he remembered watching the moon rise over the low hills. The next thing he knew and could later recall, he was travelling 110 mph and was 25 miles past his exit. He had driven 100 miles in a blackout.
It is not difficult to imagine how frightening blackouts can be. The alcoholic may wake up in the morning with no recall of the events of the previous evening. He gets out of bed, afraid to inspect his clothes -- did he get sick? Then the question occurs to him: "How did I get home?" He looks out the window, fearful that the car will be missing. He does not remember driving home.
The car is there, and he has another, even more frightening thought: "Did I hit something or someone?" He runs outside and looks at the front end. He searches the seats for clues to help him piece the lost time back together. Humiliating thoughts race through his mind: "Did I disgrace myself? Will my friends talk to me? How can I find out what happened when I am too embarrassed to admit that I don't remember?"
Blackouts can be so frightening that they make the alcoholic question his sanity. For the first time he may realize that he is in deep trouble with alcohol. Despite his increasing problems, however, the middle-stage alcoholic rarely considers giving up drinking...
totfit
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ft Collins, CO
Posts: 1,273
I think those whose opinions it is that blackouts are not indicative alcoholism and exclusive to those predisposed should read medical literature and not just give an opinion. Medical literature overwhelmingly states that blackouts do not occur in all that drink too much, but instead are indicative of a bodily difference. Also, never said blackouts were mentioned in the Dr's opinion, only that it was a good take on the description of an alcoholic, mainly the bodily difference was the point.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by totfit
I think those whose opinions it is that blackouts are not indicative alcoholism and exclusive to those predisposed should read medical literature and not just give an opinion. Medical literature overwhelmingly states that blackouts do not occur in all that drink too much, but instead are indicative of a bodily difference. Also, never said blackouts were mentioned in the Dr's opinion, only that it was a good take on the description of an alcoholic, mainly the bodily difference was the point.
There is literally a pub every 20 feet in Dublin and come the weekend every single one of them is packed full and an awful lot of people will be so drunk they will have trouble walking/be aggressive/abusive/commit crimes etc
It's sad but a lot of people just seem to grow out of it. Then again a lot of people never will and they're the ones I feel sorry for.
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
blackouts are NOT just for alcoholics
Remember, 'Under the Influence' was written in the 80's, probably using studies and papers by E.M. Jellinek (1940's) and Ryback (1970's). Most early studies into alcohol induced blackouts were done using surveys of folks from AA (yes, Jellinek actually surveyed AAer's) and other admitted alcoholics.....therefore, what other conclusion could they come to but that 'only' alcoholics have blackouts.........eh?
More recent studies.....: Poikolainen (1982); Goodwin (1995); White, etal (2000); NIAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism), the VA; and Duke University.....to name a few. Here's some of the informtion I have found.....:
"...Alcohol primarily interferes with the ability to form new long–term memories, leaving intact previously established long–term memories and the ability to keep new information active in memory for brief periods. As the amount of alcohol consumed increases, so does the magnitude of the memory impairments. Large amounts of alcohol, particularly if consumed rapidly, can produce partial (i.e., fragmentary) or complete (i.e., en bloc) blackouts, which are periods of memory loss for events that transpired while a person was drinking. Blackouts are much more common among social drinkers—including college drinkers—than was previously assumed, and have been found to encompass events ranging from conversations to intercourse. Mechanisms underlying alcohol–induced memory impairments include disruption of activity in the hippocampus, a brain region that plays a central role in the formation of new auotbiographical memories..." (Aaron M. White, Ph.D.; Duke U.; NIAA--2000).
"...Most of the research conducted on blackouts during the past 50 years has involved surveys, interviews, and direct observation of middle–aged, primarily male alcoholics, many of whom were hospitalized. Researchers have largely ignored the occurrence of blackouts among young social drinkers, so the idea that blackouts are an unlikely consequence of heavy drinking in nonalcoholics has remained deeply entrenched in both the scientific and popular cultures. Yet there is clear evidence that blackouts do occur among social drinkers..." (Poikolainen--1982;Knight and colleagues--1999; and Goodwin--1995; Wechsler etal--2002; White and colleagues--2002+2004).
"...In classic studies of hospitalized alcoholics by Goodwin and colleagues (1969a,b), 36 out of the 100 patients interviewed indicated that they had never experienced a blackout. In some ways, the patients who did not experience blackouts are as interesting as the patients who did. What was it about these 36 patients that kept them from blacking out, despite the fact that their alcoholism was so severe that it required hospitalization? Although they may actually have experienced blackouts but simply were unaware of them, there may have been something fundamentally different about these patients that diminished their likelihood of experiencing memory impairments while drinking.
In support of this possibility, a recent study by Hartzler and Fromme (2003) suggests that people with a history of blackouts are more vulnerable to the effects of alcohol on memory than those without a history of blackouts..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In other words, although alcohol induced blackouts may be a sign of a person's being, or becoming, an alcoholic, they are not just for alcoholics; many other folks (not alcoholics) seem to have (had) blackouts. Perhaps some of the misconception has come from the non-alcoholics' unwillingness to admit to blackouts as they thought only alcoholics had them and didn't want to be classfied in that group......something to think about.....eh.....?
(o:
NoelleR
More recent studies.....: Poikolainen (1982); Goodwin (1995); White, etal (2000); NIAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism), the VA; and Duke University.....to name a few. Here's some of the informtion I have found.....:
"...Alcohol primarily interferes with the ability to form new long–term memories, leaving intact previously established long–term memories and the ability to keep new information active in memory for brief periods. As the amount of alcohol consumed increases, so does the magnitude of the memory impairments. Large amounts of alcohol, particularly if consumed rapidly, can produce partial (i.e., fragmentary) or complete (i.e., en bloc) blackouts, which are periods of memory loss for events that transpired while a person was drinking. Blackouts are much more common among social drinkers—including college drinkers—than was previously assumed, and have been found to encompass events ranging from conversations to intercourse. Mechanisms underlying alcohol–induced memory impairments include disruption of activity in the hippocampus, a brain region that plays a central role in the formation of new auotbiographical memories..." (Aaron M. White, Ph.D.; Duke U.; NIAA--2000).
"...Most of the research conducted on blackouts during the past 50 years has involved surveys, interviews, and direct observation of middle–aged, primarily male alcoholics, many of whom were hospitalized. Researchers have largely ignored the occurrence of blackouts among young social drinkers, so the idea that blackouts are an unlikely consequence of heavy drinking in nonalcoholics has remained deeply entrenched in both the scientific and popular cultures. Yet there is clear evidence that blackouts do occur among social drinkers..." (Poikolainen--1982;Knight and colleagues--1999; and Goodwin--1995; Wechsler etal--2002; White and colleagues--2002+2004).
"...In classic studies of hospitalized alcoholics by Goodwin and colleagues (1969a,b), 36 out of the 100 patients interviewed indicated that they had never experienced a blackout. In some ways, the patients who did not experience blackouts are as interesting as the patients who did. What was it about these 36 patients that kept them from blacking out, despite the fact that their alcoholism was so severe that it required hospitalization? Although they may actually have experienced blackouts but simply were unaware of them, there may have been something fundamentally different about these patients that diminished their likelihood of experiencing memory impairments while drinking.
In support of this possibility, a recent study by Hartzler and Fromme (2003) suggests that people with a history of blackouts are more vulnerable to the effects of alcohol on memory than those without a history of blackouts..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In other words, although alcohol induced blackouts may be a sign of a person's being, or becoming, an alcoholic, they are not just for alcoholics; many other folks (not alcoholics) seem to have (had) blackouts. Perhaps some of the misconception has come from the non-alcoholics' unwillingness to admit to blackouts as they thought only alcoholics had them and didn't want to be classfied in that group......something to think about.....eh.....?
(o:
NoelleR
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 196
Think you're pretty much spot on there Noeller. Blackouts happen to *tonnes* of non alcoholics, alcoholics are more likely to have blackouts considering the vast quantities consumed but theres plenty plenty plenty more people who get em that dont have a problem, for instance people indulging in shennanigans like drinking games etc where they're encouraged to drink quickly or just when theyve gone past their usual limit.
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,013
I think if you have been brought up in England (UK and Ireland) then a blackout from drinking is almost considered a "normal" thing. You will find very few drinkers who haven't at least expeinced an alcoholic blackout at least once. Most learn from it and get to "know their limits". Many p*sshead will experince them fairly regularly but grow out of them with age and change in lifestyle/responsibilites.
The alcoholics blackouts, but crucially behaviour/moods during the blackout, will get more irrational, depressive, abusive and generally bizzarre. They start to become a liability and somebody that even fellow drinkers acknowledge that there is something disticticly different about them. It gets dark and hopeless.
That is my experience as somebody who got sober at 23 and was in the "scene" every weekend without fail from 16. I saw/drank with a very wide range of different people, ranging from private-schooled toffs to council estate scallywags!!
In relation to the OP though. Make sure that you're aware that probably all actual alcoholics experience blackouts regularly. It is a definate indicator of a total loss of control in drink.
For me I would blackout pretty much every time I drank whereas 'normal' drinkers just don't do that in my experince. If I didn't blackout then I would view it like I had more drinking to have been done and would make up for it on the next sesh.
The alcoholics blackouts, but crucially behaviour/moods during the blackout, will get more irrational, depressive, abusive and generally bizzarre. They start to become a liability and somebody that even fellow drinkers acknowledge that there is something disticticly different about them. It gets dark and hopeless.
That is my experience as somebody who got sober at 23 and was in the "scene" every weekend without fail from 16. I saw/drank with a very wide range of different people, ranging from private-schooled toffs to council estate scallywags!!
In relation to the OP though. Make sure that you're aware that probably all actual alcoholics experience blackouts regularly. It is a definate indicator of a total loss of control in drink.
For me I would blackout pretty much every time I drank whereas 'normal' drinkers just don't do that in my experince. If I didn't blackout then I would view it like I had more drinking to have been done and would make up for it on the next sesh.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,279
Originally Posted by qs4thinking
Is it possible to have blackouts while drinking and not be an alcoholic?
If you are questioning whether you are an alcoholic or not this test may help AM I AN ALCOHOLIC?
Someone may have a better one for you as this is the first one that showed in a Google search.
Based on one of your posts here in the past I would be concerned about my drinking (I have had similar experiences to yours in the past... its a real life nightmare).
Take care & all of the best in your recovery.
NB
P.S. Here is the post I was referring to:
Originally Posted by qs4thinking
went to the bar friday with coworkers. i have a rule never to drink with coworkers. they all know about my drinking and tolerate me, i guess.
serious black out drunk. no idea how i got home. woke up, my car wasn't in the front so i took the bus back to the bar. car was where i parked it. sometimes i'm pretty smart even when drunk.
massive flooding in bathroom. no recollection of what happened. and here's the scary part - (very) shallow wounds on my hand. one looks like a fork stab and the other is just a puncture. they are shallow so i don't think any attacked me out of anger. some bruising too.
did i do something at the bar?
am i going to get fired tomorrow?
it's illogical to worry about it. but after hitting it hard last night as well as friday night, i'm having massive panic attacks all day today.
it's frustrating because things are looking very good for me in the immediate future. i should enjoy it, instead i just panic panic panic panic.
trying to resist going to the bar to make everything ok. i could go for just one beer right? i've never once gone for "just one beer."
oh well, i guess i'll know in 24 hours if i'm fired or not. and if i'm not and i'm still having a panic attack, i'll find something else pointless to worry about tomorrow
serious black out drunk. no idea how i got home. woke up, my car wasn't in the front so i took the bus back to the bar. car was where i parked it. sometimes i'm pretty smart even when drunk.
massive flooding in bathroom. no recollection of what happened. and here's the scary part - (very) shallow wounds on my hand. one looks like a fork stab and the other is just a puncture. they are shallow so i don't think any attacked me out of anger. some bruising too.
did i do something at the bar?
am i going to get fired tomorrow?
it's illogical to worry about it. but after hitting it hard last night as well as friday night, i'm having massive panic attacks all day today.
it's frustrating because things are looking very good for me in the immediate future. i should enjoy it, instead i just panic panic panic panic.
trying to resist going to the bar to make everything ok. i could go for just one beer right? i've never once gone for "just one beer."
oh well, i guess i'll know in 24 hours if i'm fired or not. and if i'm not and i'm still having a panic attack, i'll find something else pointless to worry about tomorrow
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