How do I get out of this mess? LONG
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Intolerant?
Sorry, I just call it like I see it.
No one is forcing the AA way, just to counter misinformation about "the aa way."
Again the person says aa didn't work, but when pressed, the truth is revealed they didn't try aa... they only went to meetings.
And you know what? It ain't even about AA vs any other program.
Its about self honesty. Recovery begins with self honesty.
But I digress, when someone LIES and says "AA didn't work for me" when the truth is they weren't willing to work the aa program, co-signing that BS with a "there there honey, let's give you a hug. We'll love you until you learn to love yourself' could be the equivalent of signing their death sentence.
And again, it not about the original poster... its about a newcomer who might be looking for a solution, possibly considering AA, sees the lie "it didn't work for me (inspite of me never working it)" and as a result dies from alcoholism.
Intolerant? Yeah I don't tolerate people who lie to themselves. I might as well load the gun for them to play russian roulette.
If my post riles you, please understand, I don't coddle people. This disease kills. From the sounds of it, recovered1 will probably die from alcoholism.
if you believe me to be mean spirited, unloving, unsupportive, let me assure you, nothing could be further from the truth.
Sorry, I just call it like I see it.
No one is forcing the AA way, just to counter misinformation about "the aa way."
Again the person says aa didn't work, but when pressed, the truth is revealed they didn't try aa... they only went to meetings.
And you know what? It ain't even about AA vs any other program.
Its about self honesty. Recovery begins with self honesty.
But I digress, when someone LIES and says "AA didn't work for me" when the truth is they weren't willing to work the aa program, co-signing that BS with a "there there honey, let's give you a hug. We'll love you until you learn to love yourself' could be the equivalent of signing their death sentence.
And again, it not about the original poster... its about a newcomer who might be looking for a solution, possibly considering AA, sees the lie "it didn't work for me (inspite of me never working it)" and as a result dies from alcoholism.
Intolerant? Yeah I don't tolerate people who lie to themselves. I might as well load the gun for them to play russian roulette.
If my post riles you, please understand, I don't coddle people. This disease kills. From the sounds of it, recovered1 will probably die from alcoholism.
if you believe me to be mean spirited, unloving, unsupportive, let me assure you, nothing could be further from the truth.
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Originally Posted by bugsworth 
basIam...I agree that each one of us who does recover has our own personal understanding of what it means to have a "profound alteration in reaction to our lives"
That is not to say that any two need to be the same.
That is not to say that any two need to be the same.
from appendix II:
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. . . . With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. . . . With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Has it also never occurred to you keith that many people who attend AA don't believe they got sober by taking the 12 steps and hence that's why they don't abdicate it to others.
Wouldn't it be dishonest and wrong for these people to abdicate the 12 steps to others just to fit in and through fear.
Wouldn't it be dishonest and wrong for these people to abdicate the 12 steps to others just to fit in and through fear.
advocate : –verb (used with object) 1. to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly;
and notabdicate: –verb (used with object) to give up or renounce (authority, duties, an office, etc.), esp. in a voluntary, public, or formal manner;
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Originally Posted by Lolajames
UMMM, am I wrong to think it's a bit weird that approximately three pages out of four under Recovered's original message consist of a back and forth discussion that doesn't seem to involve Recovered? I don't get it.
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Bas, I don't think you are mean spirited or any of those descriptions. I think you are well intentioned and are frustrated that she is not seeking AA as the answer. Because it has worked for you and that is your ESH.
I do AA but it has not been what has helped free me from my addiction. It is something I do in addition to many many things. Intolerance is not tolerating that a person can find a way besides a step program. She may well arrive at AA and be helped, things are not all polarized that she can't step into a meeting but if people start up with the sort of dialogue I've seen on the thread here, I doubt she will step foot back in a meeting and is that truly helping? Not all addicts/alcoholics respond in the same manner to hard talking. I did not. I needed some self esteem buildup and some shame lifted off my shoulders.
I know you care, because you are passionate about it. I think you have a message that is not bad just is not what every person is geared to hear. Some will hear it and need that sort of dialogue some won't and be turned off by it.
I do AA but it has not been what has helped free me from my addiction. It is something I do in addition to many many things. Intolerance is not tolerating that a person can find a way besides a step program. She may well arrive at AA and be helped, things are not all polarized that she can't step into a meeting but if people start up with the sort of dialogue I've seen on the thread here, I doubt she will step foot back in a meeting and is that truly helping? Not all addicts/alcoholics respond in the same manner to hard talking. I did not. I needed some self esteem buildup and some shame lifted off my shoulders.
I know you care, because you are passionate about it. I think you have a message that is not bad just is not what every person is geared to hear. Some will hear it and need that sort of dialogue some won't and be turned off by it.
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Originally Posted by meditation
Bas, I don't think you are mean spirited or any of those descriptions. I think you are well intentioned and are frustrated that she is not seeking AA as the answer. Because it has worked for you and that is your ESH . . . Intolerance is not tolerating that a person can find a way besides a step program.
What matters is the lies people tell themselves, purport to be the truth, and possibly cause harm to others seeking a solution.
Its a subtle point I am making. Trust me, you are completely mistaken as to my "frustrations" (your word not mine)
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Originally Posted by Lolajames
UMMM, am I wrong to think it's a bit weird that approximately three pages out of four under Recovered's original message consist of a back and forth discussion that doesn't seem to involve Recovered? I don't get it.
Meditation—
I really wish the thanks button was working. I would be thanking every one of your posts on this thread. So thank you.
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Oh meditation, the shame thing. I think we've talked a bit about that... crushing, overwhelming and annihilating. This holiday season is a good measure of how horrible it was last year.
That is why I Love the program of AA... especially as it is written in the Big Book itself. It is an affirmation of the human spirit and is a message of hope...
I wish that there was a way to let that spirit show in some of the posts we read and write. It is a result of my success in AA and the life changing spiritual awakening that makes me, perhaps, over enthusiastic and protective when it comes to the program. I have to step back and check myself from time to time because I come on too strong.
Recovered1... If you want what we have, recovered, happy,, joyous and free fellow travelers on the broad highway, in the sunlight of the spirit (I know, there I go again
)... you can have it... It's frustrating to me when it seems that the program is misrepresented by those who didn't get it, perhaps because they didn't realize it was about the steps, not the coffee at the meetings, or by those whom, for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, felt betrayed by it.
If we as AAs, come on too strong, too rigid, too defensive, we lose... and maybe you do too.
Sometimes, many times, it is life and death. It is hard to watch.
Mark
That is why I Love the program of AA... especially as it is written in the Big Book itself. It is an affirmation of the human spirit and is a message of hope...
I wish that there was a way to let that spirit show in some of the posts we read and write. It is a result of my success in AA and the life changing spiritual awakening that makes me, perhaps, over enthusiastic and protective when it comes to the program. I have to step back and check myself from time to time because I come on too strong.
Recovered1... If you want what we have, recovered, happy,, joyous and free fellow travelers on the broad highway, in the sunlight of the spirit (I know, there I go again
)... you can have it... It's frustrating to me when it seems that the program is misrepresented by those who didn't get it, perhaps because they didn't realize it was about the steps, not the coffee at the meetings, or by those whom, for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, felt betrayed by it.If we as AAs, come on too strong, too rigid, too defensive, we lose... and maybe you do too.
Sometimes, many times, it is life and death. It is hard to watch.
Mark
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Originally Posted by keithj
I hear what you're saying, Tyler. Dunno, though. It's something I struggle with. I think we sometimes do the newcomer a real dis-service by suggesting in the rooms of AA that all that's required to recover is to show up at meetings and call a 'sponsor' when they feel like drinking.
I'm definately not suggesting you should tell someone who is looking at AA, "that all that's required to recover is to show up at meetings and call a 'sponsor' when they feel like drinking". That is simply NOT how it works, I'm living proof of that, tried it for years, but I can be a bit stubborn!! I just think that sometimes AA folks beat the newcommer up with hardcore retoric that folks never make it to a meeting to find out what a helpful program it is, and make real personal contact with AA members.
I guess as a salesperson I kinda look at it like the difference between a soft sell and a hard sell. (I am in no way infering that anyone is "selling" AA as a program, its just an anology.) Used car salesmen close the deal with a hard sell all the time, but it's usually not a positive experience. I've always used more of a soft sell approach where I provide the information the person requested, give them a bit of a nudge, and let them make their own decisions. AA meetings really "sell" themselves, but not if the alcoholic never makes it throuh the door.
Anyway, I guess we are getting a bit off topic here, but I just wanted to clarify what I was saying.
Hope you're still out there recovered, even though things seem hopeless now threre are lots of people willing to help you if you are willing to help yourself. Take care.
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Originally Posted by basIam
You are abolutely right that we shouldn't tell the new comer they should do this or that...
The only thing we should tell them is what we have done ourselves and the result (be it good or bad)
Unfortunately, a lot of newcomers hear things they want to hear them. When we say, "you might want to do xyz, it worked for me." They hear, "you better do this, or else you'll drink again"
Now, don't get me wrong, there are some a-holes who say the latter... my advice, ignore them.
On the other hand when some one says they can't do aa, it is important to point out the that its a matter of willingness and not ability. "If you are capable of tying your shoes, you are a 'will not' and not a 'cannot'
Furthermore, when someone says it didn't work, typically they didn't work it due to some prejudice. Or they skimped on one aspect. Yes some will say, "I did the steps, and I didn't recover!" But when I ask them specifics about the actions they took, something was missed.
But here's the point.... I could give a rats a$$ whether someone comes to AA or not...
What gets me ticked is when someone says "AA didn't work for me" or "I can't do AA" when the truth is THEY DIDN'T WORK IT and THEY WON'T WORK IT. And they spout this self deception with NO CONSIDERATION on how it may affect someone else considering AA. Their sole intent it seems is to justify the lies they tell themselves with out any thought towards others.
It is pure selfishness.
And before you fire off a response saying I am baiting or flaming, I urge you to please take a moment and contemplate what I am really saying.
The only thing we should tell them is what we have done ourselves and the result (be it good or bad)
Unfortunately, a lot of newcomers hear things they want to hear them. When we say, "you might want to do xyz, it worked for me." They hear, "you better do this, or else you'll drink again"
Now, don't get me wrong, there are some a-holes who say the latter... my advice, ignore them.
On the other hand when some one says they can't do aa, it is important to point out the that its a matter of willingness and not ability. "If you are capable of tying your shoes, you are a 'will not' and not a 'cannot'
Furthermore, when someone says it didn't work, typically they didn't work it due to some prejudice. Or they skimped on one aspect. Yes some will say, "I did the steps, and I didn't recover!" But when I ask them specifics about the actions they took, something was missed.
But here's the point.... I could give a rats a$$ whether someone comes to AA or not...
What gets me ticked is when someone says "AA didn't work for me" or "I can't do AA" when the truth is THEY DIDN'T WORK IT and THEY WON'T WORK IT. And they spout this self deception with NO CONSIDERATION on how it may affect someone else considering AA. Their sole intent it seems is to justify the lies they tell themselves with out any thought towards others.
It is pure selfishness.
And before you fire off a response saying I am baiting or flaming, I urge you to please take a moment and contemplate what I am really saying.
I personally don't believe in "bashing" any program, they have all worked for someone, it's just a matter of finding what is the best fit. I only take issue with 12step folks how claim that is the ONLY way to sobriety. That's all. Take care.
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I went to AA to meet friends. It didnt work. It wasnt until I got serious about it and started doing the work that I was able to make friends. You need to be willing to try anything. I used to ABSOLUTELY hate AA. But I kept going and going and going until things started to sink in and those promises started coming true
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Bas...just to clarify I absolutely do not agree with the aa ideology...just like I don't agree with the teachings of Scientology and other organizations of a similar nature.
I do however believe that there must be a profound change (alteration) in ones life in order to truly recover. This change (alteration) is internal and can take shape in many different ways.
As far as signing other peoples bs I don't participate in that kind of "help". I have been here at SR for well over 2 years now and anyone who knows me knows I am a straight shooter. I don't coddle or pet people...I don't use cute smileys, I merely speak from the heart. You speak of intolerance and lies...these things upset you...they upset me too. Unfortunately we see the intolerance and the lies from opposite sides of the fence. Rather than make promises to Recovered about what God will or will not do I prefer to allow her to see the opportunity to take a different path. One which sits well with her soul. Recovered and others like her need to be told the truth...that freedom from addiction is indeed possible regardless of method. I'm a huge fan of the wisdom of Yoda..."Do or not do, there is no try." Tolerance of others opinions sometimes comes with a price.
I do however believe that there must be a profound change (alteration) in ones life in order to truly recover. This change (alteration) is internal and can take shape in many different ways.
As far as signing other peoples bs I don't participate in that kind of "help". I have been here at SR for well over 2 years now and anyone who knows me knows I am a straight shooter. I don't coddle or pet people...I don't use cute smileys, I merely speak from the heart. You speak of intolerance and lies...these things upset you...they upset me too. Unfortunately we see the intolerance and the lies from opposite sides of the fence. Rather than make promises to Recovered about what God will or will not do I prefer to allow her to see the opportunity to take a different path. One which sits well with her soul. Recovered and others like her need to be told the truth...that freedom from addiction is indeed possible regardless of method. I'm a huge fan of the wisdom of Yoda..."Do or not do, there is no try." Tolerance of others opinions sometimes comes with a price.
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Originally Posted by bugsworth
just to clarify I absolutely do not agree with the aa ideology...just like I don't agree with the teachings of Scientology
That you are comparing AA with scientology indicates one of several things... You don't really understand AA, you don't really understand scientology, you understand neither, or, that you can be very mean spirited.
I take offense.
Done here......
Mark
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Mark,
Your input is always valuable and I respect and admire you. You respect other's opinions and are tactful. I know you love AA and that is where you need to be. I am ok with AA and I just want you to know that you don't have to not state your opinions where you feel passionate. Don't let this thread get you down now, it's just friendly debate. I am perfectly 100% fine with someone finding step meetings as an answer. I also see other avenues as supportive. And I think I am like this because I realized thatI can't control anyone or anybody or make anyone see anything that they aren't ready to see. AA talks about bottoms. I see it as when a person is done they are done and it is a mindset a person has to arrive at....... and then they can find some supportive groups or therapy or something to keep relapses at bay. Don't beat yourself up Mark on this ........... we don't have that kind of power to influence anyone really. A hug to all on this thread but especially Mark because you've been very very kind to me.
Your input is always valuable and I respect and admire you. You respect other's opinions and are tactful. I know you love AA and that is where you need to be. I am ok with AA and I just want you to know that you don't have to not state your opinions where you feel passionate. Don't let this thread get you down now, it's just friendly debate. I am perfectly 100% fine with someone finding step meetings as an answer. I also see other avenues as supportive. And I think I am like this because I realized thatI can't control anyone or anybody or make anyone see anything that they aren't ready to see. AA talks about bottoms. I see it as when a person is done they are done and it is a mindset a person has to arrive at....... and then they can find some supportive groups or therapy or something to keep relapses at bay. Don't beat yourself up Mark on this ........... we don't have that kind of power to influence anyone really. A hug to all on this thread but especially Mark because you've been very very kind to me.
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Thanx Bugs and Meditation 
Some days I get my head up my a$$... My daughter is home from college and we went out christmas shopping together and had lunch and it was all good. Sometimes I get too enmeshed and I lose my objectivity and get self centered and all.
No apology needed Bugs, it's my issue not yours.
Recovered1, no I don't forget whose thread I am in.... sorry for the drama. I hope you find the recovery program that works for you. As you can see people's opinions and feelings run strong... and that is a good thing.... Meditation, Tyler, Bugs, basIam, myself, others here all have found recovery. Some of our paths are similar, some are different... but they all got us here today. If you ask anyone of us... Was it comfortable? Where you always willing? Are your days filled with rainbows and ponies coming down from the sky (sorry I like that, heard from a friend of my son's...)? NO, heck no...
Find one that's meaningful, not easy. Easy doesn't work. Oh, and I'm wrong sometimes!!
Mark
Some days I get my head up my a$$... My daughter is home from college and we went out christmas shopping together and had lunch and it was all good. Sometimes I get too enmeshed and I lose my objectivity and get self centered and all.
No apology needed Bugs, it's my issue not yours.
Recovered1, no I don't forget whose thread I am in
.... sorry for the drama. I hope you find the recovery program that works for you. As you can see people's opinions and feelings run strong... and that is a good thing.... Meditation, Tyler, Bugs, basIam, myself, others here all have found recovery. Some of our paths are similar, some are different... but they all got us here today. If you ask anyone of us... Was it comfortable? Where you always willing? Are your days filled with rainbows and ponies coming down from the sky (sorry I like that, heard from a friend of my son's...)? NO, heck no...Find one that's meaningful, not easy. Easy doesn't work. Oh, and I'm wrong sometimes!!
Mark
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One last thing from me on this...
Yes, recovered1 started the thread, but then she posted it to SR.
SR is a site where a lot of newcomers come to learn from others what did and did not work for people in their search for recovery.
Those who have tried, and found success, with a particular approach - any approach, have an obligation to redress those who say something didn't work, when, in fact, the person never really tried something.
Otherwise, the next person might erroneously conclude that the program doesn't work... and then die.
This redress belongs in the original thread, as that is the context being rebutted.
I have never said AA is the only way to recover. If you believe I have you are simply delusional. I have contended that some other methods make some ludicrous contentions about AA as well as the nature of alcoholism. But those are two completely different arguments.
For example, any program that contends that AA dwells on the problem, resigns one to a life of meetings, forces one to conform to religious belief, and believe that we never recover is simply lying about AA. If you want to pursue that program, by all means do. But understand, those contentions are lies.
Did I say it did not, and never would say, it won't work. Never did I say, nor would I ever say AA is the only way.
Heavy handed about AA? Never... heavy handed pointing out alcoholic delusion? Always.
The nature of alcoholism IS delusion.
A deadly insipid delusion.
The last thing a newcomer needs to see is the uncontested rantings of a deluded alcoholic, and run the risk of further self justification feeding their own deluded thought process.
Yes, recovered1 started the thread, but then she posted it to SR.
SR is a site where a lot of newcomers come to learn from others what did and did not work for people in their search for recovery.
Those who have tried, and found success, with a particular approach - any approach, have an obligation to redress those who say something didn't work, when, in fact, the person never really tried something.
Otherwise, the next person might erroneously conclude that the program doesn't work... and then die.
This redress belongs in the original thread, as that is the context being rebutted.
I have never said AA is the only way to recover. If you believe I have you are simply delusional. I have contended that some other methods make some ludicrous contentions about AA as well as the nature of alcoholism. But those are two completely different arguments.
For example, any program that contends that AA dwells on the problem, resigns one to a life of meetings, forces one to conform to religious belief, and believe that we never recover is simply lying about AA. If you want to pursue that program, by all means do. But understand, those contentions are lies.
Did I say it did not, and never would say, it won't work. Never did I say, nor would I ever say AA is the only way.
Heavy handed about AA? Never... heavy handed pointing out alcoholic delusion? Always.
The nature of alcoholism IS delusion.
A deadly insipid delusion.
The last thing a newcomer needs to see is the uncontested rantings of a deluded alcoholic, and run the risk of further self justification feeding their own deluded thought process.
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It would seem by the amount of views this thread has had that many people do find this topic interesting...If it is the newcomer that you worry about, this thread and others like it are no threat. People die from drinking too much alcohol not from conflicting opinions on a message board. Anyone whom is seeking help here at SR will be able to find all sorts of people, in all stages of recovery, using many varied methods. I think sometimes we forget how large the world is apart from SR....information abounds...anyone, at anytime, can get information about anything....gotta love google. Simply put you and I just don’t have that much power.
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When I was last on a big binge my flat was a real mess but I couln't find any motivation to clean it - then it occured to me, why not pay one of my friends to do it for me, which I did. She was working really hard, and I felt a little guilty so I started helping and in only 6 hours the place was sparkling.
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