Mark75

Bugs, No, no, no.... He's asking you to get your own interpretation, not his!

Awesome basIam... I want to remember that!

Mark

bugsworth

Mark, I appreciate your attempt to clarify what you deem to be a miscommunication on my part but suffice it to say I have been reading Pinks post for a long time and I absolutely understand his ideology and message.

tiburon88

Recovered1, hang in there & don't listen to the negative Nellies.


tiburon

Mark75

sigh...

Recovered1... There is a way. You have to be willing to do things you may not want to do to recover. Bugs has done it outside of AA, so have many others... I am not going to sell you on AA, but I did want you to get accurate information. But I guess accuracy is subjective when it comes to AA... too bad really.

Good luck and I am sorry if I caused you any ill will or frustration.

Mark

basIam

Actually what we are selling is this:
And that each and everyone of us who do recover has their own personal understanding of what that means.

Zencat

I have a duel diagnosis and have found that as long as I keep treating both illness "no matter what" my overall health has improved. Even through difficult times with my mental health and addiction symptoms I have remained committed to practicing duel treatment. It has been a near deadly lesson to finally discover that without integrating the resources that the larger recovery community has to offer into my personalized duel treatment (a treatment developed with the help of a trained professional in that sort of thing)...I would have gone mad by now.

As for 12-steps I unitize the steps of DRA and have a secular humanist understand of what a helping power (some call it a higher power) is. There is a likelihood that a DRA meeting can be found at a mental health rehab or hospital like in my community.

bugsworth

basIam...I agree that each one of us who does recover has our own personal understanding of what it means to have a "profound alteration in reaction to our lives"
That is not to say that any two need to be the same.

keithj

And that's fine with AA. But she sure can't expect to get the results of the recovered alcoholics by taking what she wants and leaving the rest.

Frequently, the idea comes up on this forum from a new person seeking recovery, that they need to find the type of recovery that best fits them. It's like, 'what type of recovery fits my personal beliefs and best defines me as a recovering person.'

I look at recovery more like a life preserver. When I'm drowning, and I've been fighting with that last breath, choking and sputtering water, I don't really care what color the life preserver is or who does the throwing. I'm just going to grab it and hang on with all I've got. That's precisely what I did by giving myself up completely to the AA program.

If you're out shopping for a safety vest for a future boating trip, you can consider what color it comes in, how it fits, whether it's comfortable for water skiing, if the straps bind or not, etc. But if you're drowning, those little details get less important than grabbing whatever is thrown at you.

keithj

It also helps those who are not so inclined. Although I disagree with your basic outlook on powerlessness, Bugs, I think you generally have pretty reasoned arguments. But this statement, 'aa addresses not alcoholism...' is absurd.

I, and many others, was not seeking anything spiritual or religious. I simple wanted to stop drinking. I took AA's suggested program of recovery, and I recovered. As an aside, I developed an entirely new spiritual life, against my desire and against my belief. But the primary issue I addressed was alcoholism.

I always come back to a rubber meets the road idea with your posts, Bugs. Pick any number of the people who have posted in the past week about a relapse or inability to stop drinking for any length of time. What would you have them do?

I would suggest they take the 12 steps, have a spiritual awakening, and recover. I've never seen that fail, and I spend a lot of time working with new folks.

What would you have them do? Try harder? Really want to quit? What is it, Bugs? Why can't they quit, although seemingly sincerely wanting to?

meditation

I can actually see 2 viewpoints and understand how both work. I understand that AA is not for everybody. I also understand why AA works. What I have come to believe is that there is not ONE way that is the solution to alcoholism or addiction.

I do think it is wrong to insist on one way being the only way and criticizing a person for not accepting a certain brand of therapy. It would be akin to being told one must be a certain religion and only that religion to get to heaven. Insisting that that religion is the ONLY way is rather arrogant and will turn off the person seeking help faster than anything. One can't be bludgeoned with a treatment.

tyler

100% agree with you on that Keith. I was only responding to the folks who were saying that she was not welcome if she didn't want to "work the program".

I'm a perfect example. I've been to hundered of AA and NA meetings. But I only "went" to them. Didn't work the steps, didn't get a sponsor, didn't "work the program" in general. It didn't work for me, who's fault is that? Certainly not AA or NA's!!

The cool thing is that even though I did not choose to prusue the 12-step route, I did gain knowledge and support from those meetings. I tried not to be disrespectful of anyone at the meetings I attended and found most people to be very accepting of me, in spite of my stuborness of not working the program.

I think it's important not to "scare off" newcommers with demands that they do this and that before they even set foot into a meeting. Everyone is entitled to change their mind. I'm sure there are hundereds here at SR who went to a meeting, totally not intending to "buy into the program", but ended up finding their sobriety there anyway. It's true it's not a program for everyone, but I think sometimes people here come off so strong that it discourages newcommers, as well as the many more who read here and don't post, to even give it a try. Just my opinion.

Mark75

I think you have a valuable message Tyler. Thanx for your post.

Mark

CAPTAINZING2000

Every one wants a magic pill to make life better. That's not going to happen. Took me many years to hit a bottom. Life gets better one day at a time. I will tell you if, you keep doing what you're doing, it'll only get worse.

Set down priorities, make a list of what has to be done first

Prioritizing Your Life

keithj

I hear what you're saying, Tyler. Dunno, though. It's something I struggle with. I think we sometimes do the newcomer a real dis-service by suggesting in the rooms of AA that all that's required to recover is to show up at meetings and call a 'sponsor' when they feel like drinking.

AA has no monopoly on recovery or spirituality. But they do have a way that works. When someone asks, "How do I get out of this mess", recovered AA members can offer a direct solution to that. Too often, though, out of fear of scaring off the newcomer, members offer any number of personal opinions on just not drinking or psychological tricks that may or may not lead to recovery. In doing so, the real message of AA's solution is lost. Which is more tragic, someone getting scared off by the AA solution or someone sitting there dying with the solution right in front of them? Only being unable to hear it through all of the soft, fuzzy, let us love you into recovery stuff.

The idea of AA's spiritual solution scared the hell out of me. The idea of continuing to drink scared me a lot worse.

bugsworth

Keith, from the surface aa seems to address alcoholism but underneath the slogans, the meetings and the fellowship is a program who's real purpose is to be of maximum service to God. Not one of the steps, other than an admission of powerlessness over alcohol, addresses quitting drinking. I have no problem if you disagree or even think my line of reasoning is absurd it changes not the reality of my statement.
I spent a lot of time in aa meetings...I am a natural observer...I watched and I listened. I am curious as to why you think it is that many folks in aa can not get sober?
During my 10 months in the program I witnessed lots of relapses...a large portion of them were long time members of the program. Even here at SR we have members who advocate the program yet can't seem to stay sober. I stand by my assessment that people who really want to find sobriety do so.

Bob23

Opinions are a dime a dozen.
The 'program' is one alcoholic helping another, at its purest form. Nothing more.

keithj

So, Bugs, again I ask you, what do you suggest the newcomer do to get and stay sober? I've asked you this a number of times. I haven't heard an answer yet other than they will get sober when they really want to.

Go tell that to all the people who have posted in the past week of relapsing or unable to stop drinking. According to you, their problem is that they just really don't want to be sober. Too bad for them.

I have a different experience, Bugs. I find a direct relationship, nearly 1-1, between those who work the steps and those who recover. I started working with two different guys who came into AA a couple weeks ago. One chooses to work the Steps and one does not (so I'm not really working with him, just offering). One of them is well on his way to a lasting recovery and one is not. It's not random or arbitrary which guy is which in this case.

meditation

Well I do believe that is the true deal. If you really want to be sober you will be sober. It takes some help in the beginning. I like being locked up in rehab for a month because it would really take a lot of work to find some alcohol in rehab.
Being away from outside influences is helpful. Being in a safe environment is helpful. Not drinking is the only option in rehab.

But once out of rehab a person has to have resolved the entire not drinking issue. I wanted to be sober and I knew that it was never an option. If I thought it was I would not be sober now. Once one gets to that point in being ready to accept help then many types of programs could be used here to keep relapse at bay.

My point is Bugs is right, once you make up your mind to not drink you have arrived. And if I missed the whole point then I guess I was never an addict or alcoholic because once I made up my mind that was it. Programs help keep me on the path but they aren't the reason I stay free.

Mark75

If that's what you mean by aligning our will with God's will, if those are the words you choose to use, OK. If my God is a kind and loving God who simply wants the best for me, then I am cool with that. It certainly doesn't mean (to me) that I join a monastery, take a vow of celibacy and never allow myself to do the things that bring me real joy.

By doing so, be seeking God's will for us, many of us find our way to being Happy, Joyous and Free.

But this post, of mine, I think is what Tyler is getting at... "God's Will"... to some it is scary because the whole God thing has been push at us by... ready for this... RELIGION... Not that religion is a bad thing, I'm catholic.... but My God doesn't scare me... I have a God of my understanding... It is a spiritual thing, not religious.... However, just by me uttering the God word... to someone not in AA, who is scared off by it, does nothing to attract. It only allows people like yourself to get away with saying it is a religious program.

Sorry if I interrupted...

Mark

kurtrambis

Yes, I agree, that some of the thoughtful members who believe their sobriety was a result of rigorously following the steps do not big book thump others out of AA and hence receive no help of any sort.

In my area its absolutely impossible not go to AA without hearing the big book message over and over again. So from a big book devotee point of view encouraging people to go to meetings without scaring people away seems a sensible (attraction not promotion) idea.

Has it also never occurred to you keith that many people who attend AA don't believe they got sober by taking the 12 steps and hence that's why they don't abdicate it to others.
Wouldn't it be dishonest and wrong for these people to abdicate the 12 steps to others just to fit in and through fear.