AA-Alcoholism-The science
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,493
the science,the figures for success quite frankly are none of my business and i couldnt care less about them,i tried something and it worked where all else failed.i have a sparkle in my eye.i live an honest life and im happy.im there when the new person walks through the door.if they want to get well,i can show them what was shown to me.thats all.the rest dosnt matter.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
Originally Posted by bugsworth 
Aside from your snide remarks and incessant ranting about how God gets people sober what have you passed on?
So If it's needless to rely on God and his inspiration for strength when it comes to sobriety why rely on faith in God for anything? Why pray for peace and an end to world hunger? Let's just nail the Church Door shut and tell the congregation that they're wasting their time.
The answer is that with faith we get strength. With belief we get hope. With trust, we get inspiration.
I'll put my faith and trust in God and you keep scratching lottery tickets in hopes of winning. All you need is faith that it will happen someday. Right??? We keep scratching no matter how many times we've lost in the past. Faith and hope keeps us in line to buy tickets again and again.
Fortunatley when we put faith in God, we're instant winners. When we have faith in Lotto Tickets we'll be scratching for a long time.
Sorry for the analogy, but faith is faith.
The answer is that with faith we get strength. With belief we get hope. With trust, we get inspiration.
I'll put my faith and trust in God and you keep scratching lottery tickets in hopes of winning. All you need is faith that it will happen someday. Right??? We keep scratching no matter how many times we've lost in the past. Faith and hope keeps us in line to buy tickets again and again.
Fortunatley when we put faith in God, we're instant winners. When we have faith in Lotto Tickets we'll be scratching for a long time.
Sorry for the analogy, but faith is faith.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
People who bash AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve bashing.
People who love AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve praise.
People who call AA a cult are wrong - there are ALL kinds of people in AA - some of whom will argue with each other till the cows come home. Cults don't allow that sort of diversity.
AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms.
People who love AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve praise.
People who call AA a cult are wrong - there are ALL kinds of people in AA - some of whom will argue with each other till the cows come home. Cults don't allow that sort of diversity.
AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
"AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms."
One the beautiful things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell you want to do.
One of the tragic things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell want to do do.
One the beautiful things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell you want to do.
One of the tragic things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell want to do do.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,351
Ok, this last little fracas has not been a civil exchange of ideas, not is it a discussion that seems to be leading anywhere
Frankly how all this sniping could help someone else in trouble is beyond me.
Please lets remember why we're here.
thank you all for you co-operation.
D
Frankly how all this sniping could help someone else in trouble is beyond me.
Please lets remember why we're here.
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No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.
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No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.
Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option.
D
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Wow... yea Dee, I get it.... but man, when this stuff gets posted:
... it's hard to sit quietly on the sidelines.
But I'll try.
Mark
Originally Posted by bugsworth
I agree faith is faith...what it has to do with aa is beyond me.
But I'll try.
Mark
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 185
Thank you all, and am sorry if this post has caused, any upset. Just a little naive thought, What if you just don't believe in God or any other power or force outside of yourself other than yourself as a living, breathing organism. How do you then even start on step 1, 2, & 3? Is there no hope for us? Do we go away and find another programme that works for us? AA monopolises the world of alcoholism, and its difficult sometimes to live in a society which still believes AA holds all the answers. Yet for the majority, this is simply not true. So, whilst I am certainly not bashing AA, for those it works for, I am sure you consider yourselves very lucky. But for those that it has not helped, surely they are the only ones who can speak out to try to promote a change in attitude, not in AA but in society. One solution, certainly does not fit all. Thanks x
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by Iriss
Thank you all, and am sorry if this post has caused, any upset. Just a little naive thought, What if you just don't believe in God or any other power or force outside of yourself other than yourself as a living, breathing organism. How do you then even start on step 1, 2, & 3? Is there no hope for us? Do we go away and find another programme that works for us? AA monopolises the world of alcoholism, and its difficult sometimes to live in a society which still believes AA holds all the answers. Yet for the majority, this is simply not true. So, whilst I am certainly not bashing AA, for those it works for, I am sure you consider yourselves very lucky. But for those that it has not helped, surely they are the only ones who can speak out to try to promote a change in attitude, not in AA but in society. One solution, certainly does not fit all. Thanks x
I did this:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-three-aa.html
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
A Rose By Any Other Name Is Still A Rose
Iriss,
The purpose of any recovery path is to establish a recoverd life. For some that recovery is ongoing [like myself], for others, it finishes ie: they are recovered, and they simply do something to keep sober, whatever that may be.
My ESH. Please believe me when i say that i would still be sober if i gave up my believe in God. God does not keep me sober, a program of recovery keeps me sober, thank you very much.
i also just chose to have a faith in God within my sobriety.
Whatever.
God is in my spiritual life for other reasons, much beyond sobriety, in fact. I'm not going to go into the details in this post, but not only could i get sober, stay sober and be happy without God, so can anybody else, [if they so choose] and many people do just exactly that. It's a big world
Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple.
Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that!
Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves.
Have a great day!
RobbyRobot
The purpose of any recovery path is to establish a recoverd life. For some that recovery is ongoing [like myself], for others, it finishes ie: they are recovered, and they simply do something to keep sober, whatever that may be.
My ESH. Please believe me when i say that i would still be sober if i gave up my believe in God. God does not keep me sober, a program of recovery keeps me sober, thank you very much.
i also just chose to have a faith in God within my sobriety. Whatever.
God is in my spiritual life for other reasons, much beyond sobriety, in fact. I'm not going to go into the details in this post, but not only could i get sober, stay sober and be happy without God, so can anybody else, [if they so choose] and many people do just exactly that. It's a big world
Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple.
Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that!
Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves.
Have a great day!
RobbyRobot
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple.
Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that!
Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves.
Have a great day!
RobbyRobot
It's possible to believe in "God" without believing in "A" God, or a deity, and Iriss, although Robby and I probably have very different conceptions of God, he and I could sit and talk about God and spiritual principals all night without one word of disagreement, that is the beauty of "why don't you choose your own concept of God" in AA
A spiritual way of living is alright, it really is
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Iriss...To begin with a belief in God has no bearing on sobriety. There are other "programs" such as SMART and Life Ring but the truth of the matter is that each of us as individuals must do the hard work. Putting our sobriety first is paramount...finding like minded people is also key. It is a hard road back to normal living but rest assured what ever path you walk can get you to the same destination. It is my personal belief that empowering people with the truth nets results that are life changing. I found it unnecessary to get tangled up in religious teachings when my life was on the line...keep things simple and know that if you want sobriety it is obtainable regardless of your beliefs in God.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by Ago
that was very nice Rob, thank you
It's possible to believe in "God" without believing in "A" God, or a deity, and Iriss, although Robby and I probably have very different conceptions of God, he and I could sit and talk about God and spiritual principals all night without one word of disagreement, that is the beauty of "why don't you choose your own concept of God" in AA
A spiritual way of living is alright, it really is
It's possible to believe in "God" without believing in "A" God, or a deity, and Iriss, although Robby and I probably have very different conceptions of God, he and I could sit and talk about God and spiritual principals all night without one word of disagreement, that is the beauty of "why don't you choose your own concept of God" in AA
A spiritual way of living is alright, it really is
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
Originally Posted by Iriss
Spirituality in itself it a beautiful word, and maybe I am even envious, but how do I choose my own concept of god, when all I believe in is the science of how we have evolved? I love all that is living, that is dear to me, yet I cannot see any other power or force beyond this. Thank you anyhow, I can feel you mean well x
I won't ruin it for you by telling you how it ends.
Easy Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by bugsworth
Plenty of people care Pink. No matter how much certain members here at SR want to bury threads like this with bb quotes and step tutorials there will always be those who care more about alcoholics than they do about a flawed religious movement that has a success rate equal to remission rates. Just for the record I did not call aa a cult you did...an astute observation but your words not mine.
Do you have any credible research that measures the efficacy for people who have followed the program as intended? Hint: ' regular attendance at meetings' is irrelevant.
Every study I've ever seen of AA effectiveness is strictly anecdotal. It's akin to studying the effectiveness of aspirin in mediating headache pain by using as data the number of people who purchased aspirin, as opposed to those
who used it prescribed.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by Pinkcuda
The Third tradition is meant to be inclusive. In the 12&12, Tradition 3 describes a member who refused to believe in God. Should he or should he not be entitled to membership with this attitude? This was pre-tradition.
I won't ruin it for you by telling you how it ends.
I won't ruin it for you by telling you how it ends.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,351
I wrote a big long post and it got lost LOL
hopefully this will make it more concise second time round.
I think Ago builds me a up a little calling what I do a programme.
Very simply I was killing myself and I didn't want to die just yet.
The first thing I did was not drink.
I finally got it through my head that this was a fight I could not win.
Every drink was a defeat for me.
I decided not to fight anymore.
I did everything I needed to in order not to drink again - I made sure I always had other options beside the obvious one to drink - always other things to do or people to call. I've not caved yet
The other part of my 'programme' was looking at why I drank.
I wasn't always an alcoholic, and to say that's why I drank might have become the truth, but it wasn't always so.
I believe I have underlying 'reasons' for my alcoholism and I never addressed them for years except to medicate them with drink...to work on those issues is an ongoing process, and takes a lot of honesty and diligence.
I try to make myself a better person and live a better life too - there's no need to get religious about that if you don't want to - I give a lot of time to service work here, I try to be a good man and a good partner...it's not rocket science - a happy and content person, grateful for what they have after the hell of drinking is IMO less likely to risk it all by drinking again
I think in hindsight all that is harder work for me than not drinking, but its rewarding too.
I see why most people pick a defined programme - there is safety in numbers and it is reassuring to have face to face contact.
Thats the briefest explanation I can give of what I do
God no God - just pick a programme you can work with, and work it, Iriss.
D
hopefully this will make it more concise second time round.
I think Ago builds me a up a little calling what I do a programme.
Very simply I was killing myself and I didn't want to die just yet.
The first thing I did was not drink.
I finally got it through my head that this was a fight I could not win.
Every drink was a defeat for me.
I decided not to fight anymore.
I did everything I needed to in order not to drink again - I made sure I always had other options beside the obvious one to drink - always other things to do or people to call. I've not caved yet
The other part of my 'programme' was looking at why I drank.
I wasn't always an alcoholic, and to say that's why I drank might have become the truth, but it wasn't always so.
I believe I have underlying 'reasons' for my alcoholism and I never addressed them for years except to medicate them with drink...to work on those issues is an ongoing process, and takes a lot of honesty and diligence.
I try to make myself a better person and live a better life too - there's no need to get religious about that if you don't want to - I give a lot of time to service work here, I try to be a good man and a good partner...it's not rocket science - a happy and content person, grateful for what they have after the hell of drinking is IMO less likely to risk it all by drinking again
I think in hindsight all that is harder work for me than not drinking, but its rewarding too.
I see why most people pick a defined programme - there is safety in numbers and it is reassuring to have face to face contact.
Thats the briefest explanation I can give of what I do
God no God - just pick a programme you can work with, and work it, Iriss.
D
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