In your opinion, is this end stage alcoholism? Have any of you been there?
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
In your opinion, is this end stage alcoholism? Have any of you been there?
Hi All,
I am not an alcoholic, but am the wife (soon to be ex) of one. In the past 5 months he has been sober maybe only two weeks total. He has alcoholic liver disease, had diabetes (but drinking lowered his blood sugar), severe muscle wasting and was hospitalized for a week last year and again this year for alcohol induced rhabdoymyolysis (acute alcoholic myopathy). In any event, he has been on steady decline for the past couple of months, to where he is drinking around the clock now, just drinks and passes out, drinks and passes out. Doesn't fish, play golf, doesn't even work. He is extremely drunk on a constant basis, can't even hold a conversation, and actually I believe hallucinates conversations that never took place. He can barely walk, and has to hold on to everything, he falls constantly. I can't do this anymore, and the final straw was yesterday when he cleared out his IRA (he's not 59 yet) and I'm going to be stuck w/the taxes. He doesn't care, he's going to move away.
In any event, my adults kids seem to think that he is very late stage alcoholic, and it's only a matter of time before he dies or is institutionalized. Now, all my kids have read "under the influence", and so have I, plus we reguarly follow the Alanon program, and attend open AA meetings when we can.
My questions are: does this really sound like late stage to you? If so, when does the death or institutionalization come in? How does one know whether they need to be institutionalized because of wet brain, psychosis or is it just plain drunk 24/7? I know alcoholics hate when I say this but I know and have accepted the fact that he can/will never stop drinking. It is way beyond his control. He was sober for 15 years without a single relapse, and has been drinking for the last 8 years. In the past two years, he has been in rehab 3 times, and each time was able to maintain about 3 mons. sobriety, before going back worse than before. Now he cannot remain sober, it's just not happening, even after his hospital stay.
I am taking care of me, I do for me, but I just would like to know, for ME, what am I in store for.
Any feedback is appreciated.
I am not an alcoholic, but am the wife (soon to be ex) of one. In the past 5 months he has been sober maybe only two weeks total. He has alcoholic liver disease, had diabetes (but drinking lowered his blood sugar), severe muscle wasting and was hospitalized for a week last year and again this year for alcohol induced rhabdoymyolysis (acute alcoholic myopathy). In any event, he has been on steady decline for the past couple of months, to where he is drinking around the clock now, just drinks and passes out, drinks and passes out. Doesn't fish, play golf, doesn't even work. He is extremely drunk on a constant basis, can't even hold a conversation, and actually I believe hallucinates conversations that never took place. He can barely walk, and has to hold on to everything, he falls constantly. I can't do this anymore, and the final straw was yesterday when he cleared out his IRA (he's not 59 yet) and I'm going to be stuck w/the taxes. He doesn't care, he's going to move away.
In any event, my adults kids seem to think that he is very late stage alcoholic, and it's only a matter of time before he dies or is institutionalized. Now, all my kids have read "under the influence", and so have I, plus we reguarly follow the Alanon program, and attend open AA meetings when we can.
My questions are: does this really sound like late stage to you? If so, when does the death or institutionalization come in? How does one know whether they need to be institutionalized because of wet brain, psychosis or is it just plain drunk 24/7? I know alcoholics hate when I say this but I know and have accepted the fact that he can/will never stop drinking. It is way beyond his control. He was sober for 15 years without a single relapse, and has been drinking for the last 8 years. In the past two years, he has been in rehab 3 times, and each time was able to maintain about 3 mons. sobriety, before going back worse than before. Now he cannot remain sober, it's just not happening, even after his hospital stay.
I am taking care of me, I do for me, but I just would like to know, for ME, what am I in store for.
Any feedback is appreciated.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 437
Sorry Queeteree that sounds terrible. I am also sorry that I can not answer your question however it sounds pretty bad to me. I do know that some go on a long time with this disease. It does help us here to be reminded how bad it can get. It seems like you already know he has no control over it. Did he ever use AA because it seems to me that is his only hope. There are also some drugs out there but don't know if he tried them or not. Good luck to you and you seem to be doing what you need to for yourself. You might also try posting in the friends and family forum, they may be able to answer your questions.
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
When he was sober for the 3 mon. stints, he went to AA, even went when he was drunk ... didn't help. He was on Campral, didn't help. Even tried Topomax, didn't do any good. He is not a candidate for Naltrexone cause he has liver disease. But I don't think that would do any good either.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Queentree, from what you describe he'll either end up in the hospital or kill himself with the alcohol. He needs professional help but will probably be reluctant to go on his own. Most cities have a crisis intervention hotline that will work with you to try and get him some help.
Heathen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
Posts: 2,567
I quit drinking before that point, thank goodness.
At what point would death come? Sounds like much sooner than later to me.
He COULD stop drinking if he wanted to. He CHOOSES not to get or stay sober. Whether or not it would be too late to save his life, I have no idea.
At what point would death come? Sounds like much sooner than later to me.
He COULD stop drinking if he wanted to. He CHOOSES not to get or stay sober. Whether or not it would be too late to save his life, I have no idea.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Talk to you doctor, express your concerns and ask your questions. Your doctor may have some suggestions on how to get him into a facility (not rehab) that is for people in his condition. Some last in end stage for years, some only months.
When his belly becomes extremely distended and he starts vomiting or passing blood or he falls and knocks himself out, etc call 911 and let the hospital figure out what to do with him.
No crystal balls here, but I can tell you that end stage is horribly painful (giving the alcoholic reason to drink more to stop the pain) and is a horrible way to go.
Love and hugs,
When his belly becomes extremely distended and he starts vomiting or passing blood or he falls and knocks himself out, etc call 911 and let the hospital figure out what to do with him.
No crystal balls here, but I can tell you that end stage is horribly painful (giving the alcoholic reason to drink more to stop the pain) and is a horrible way to go.
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
He Queenterri.
I'm sorry to hear that your husband is in such poor health and doesn't seem to have any effort to want to change. I'm sure that has to be hard for you and my heart goes out to you.You said that you read Under the Influence. Good. The follow up book to that is called Beyond the Influence. I'm just going to quote a few lines from pages 72 and 73.
"In the final stages of alcoholism, the drive to drink is so ferociously demanding that alcoholics often feel they have no choice but to obey the addicted brain's commands. Getting alcohol to the cells is the first priority; over time, it becomes the only priority."
That quote runs with what your husband is currently doing. He cleared out the IRA so he can get more alcohol. At least that seems to be his intent given your description of his current state of mind.
"When the drinker's blood alcohol condentration begins to descend, the blood vessels constrict, cutting down on the flow of blood and oxygen to the cells. Blood glucose levels drop sharply and remain unstable , and levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin and norepinehprine decrease dramatically.....The brain cells are starving for alcohol; they're literally dying for it."
Basically what the book says is that when the late stage alcoholic stops drinking then they are in so much pain that only alcohol will alleviate the pain.
"General deterioration in physical health also figures into withdrawal. The alcoholic's body, ravaged by liver disease, gastrointestinal problems, brain cell destruction, or malnutrition, may physically reject alcohol through vomiting, hemorrhaging, or passing out.....In addition, the mental confusion brought about by widespread brain cell destruction clouds the late stage alcoholic's judgement and makes it extremely difficult to decide when enough is enough."
You did say that he was possibly hallucinating about conversations that never occurred. You also said that he just drinks and passes out. It continues...
"In the third and most dangerous stage of withdrawal the late stage alcoholic may experience delirium tremens (DTs). Symptoms include severe tremors, anxiety, paranoia, profuse sweating, agitation, rapid pulse, fever and diarrhea. Hallucinations are tactile as well as visual and auditory - the alcoholic actually feels, hears and sees thinkgs that are not there."
I'm sorry again if your husband, or any human has to go through this. As some of those on SR can tell you, the kind of drinking you describe may lead to death. The thing is is that it's not too late for him to get the help he needs. According to the book he would most likely need an alcohol drip just to ween him off the alcohol. Of course there's all the work that would need to be done after that. But you seem to believe that that may not matter anyway based on his state of mind and his history with being hospitalized.
I'll say a prayer for his sake and yours.
I'm sorry to hear that your husband is in such poor health and doesn't seem to have any effort to want to change. I'm sure that has to be hard for you and my heart goes out to you.You said that you read Under the Influence. Good. The follow up book to that is called Beyond the Influence. I'm just going to quote a few lines from pages 72 and 73.
"In the final stages of alcoholism, the drive to drink is so ferociously demanding that alcoholics often feel they have no choice but to obey the addicted brain's commands. Getting alcohol to the cells is the first priority; over time, it becomes the only priority."
That quote runs with what your husband is currently doing. He cleared out the IRA so he can get more alcohol. At least that seems to be his intent given your description of his current state of mind.
"When the drinker's blood alcohol condentration begins to descend, the blood vessels constrict, cutting down on the flow of blood and oxygen to the cells. Blood glucose levels drop sharply and remain unstable , and levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin and norepinehprine decrease dramatically.....The brain cells are starving for alcohol; they're literally dying for it."
Basically what the book says is that when the late stage alcoholic stops drinking then they are in so much pain that only alcohol will alleviate the pain.
"General deterioration in physical health also figures into withdrawal. The alcoholic's body, ravaged by liver disease, gastrointestinal problems, brain cell destruction, or malnutrition, may physically reject alcohol through vomiting, hemorrhaging, or passing out.....In addition, the mental confusion brought about by widespread brain cell destruction clouds the late stage alcoholic's judgement and makes it extremely difficult to decide when enough is enough."
You did say that he was possibly hallucinating about conversations that never occurred. You also said that he just drinks and passes out. It continues...
"In the third and most dangerous stage of withdrawal the late stage alcoholic may experience delirium tremens (DTs). Symptoms include severe tremors, anxiety, paranoia, profuse sweating, agitation, rapid pulse, fever and diarrhea. Hallucinations are tactile as well as visual and auditory - the alcoholic actually feels, hears and sees thinkgs that are not there."
I'm sorry again if your husband, or any human has to go through this. As some of those on SR can tell you, the kind of drinking you describe may lead to death. The thing is is that it's not too late for him to get the help he needs. According to the book he would most likely need an alcohol drip just to ween him off the alcohol. Of course there's all the work that would need to be done after that. But you seem to believe that that may not matter anyway based on his state of mind and his history with being hospitalized.
I'll say a prayer for his sake and yours.
To Thine Own Self Be True
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,946
Wow. I am so sorry for you both and your children as well. How devastating and what a reminder to us all. After 15 years sober and now he can't stop.
Can't they put him on a 36 hour hold for behavior like this???
Can't they put him on a 36 hour hold for behavior like this???
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,279
Dear queenteree, so sorry to hear about your situation. My heart goes out to you & yours. I will also be sending out a prayer your way. I dont have a lot of information on your situation other than get him to the hospital & see if they can do something.
Ken L, wow that is scary stuff. It should be listed in the "beyond the influence" sticky in the Alcoholics section (I dont think I saw it if it is). That is where its from right?
Take Care,
NB
Ken L, wow that is scary stuff. It should be listed in the "beyond the influence" sticky in the Alcoholics section (I dont think I saw it if it is). That is where its from right?
Take Care,
NB
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
To put it bluntly... I think he either bottoms out or dies. I know if I had not quit I would have figured out a creatively stupid way to kill myself from some of the dangerous things I did in the past. All I can say is to take care of yourself. There is only so much you can do to help an addict; some of which can be counter productive.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, one big happy dysfunctional family!
Posts: 23,051
Laurie and Ken nailed it QT, I can't add anything else. I've been reading your posts since I joined SR, and just wanted to send hugs and prayers your way 
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
Yea, NB010, it's from Beyond the Influence: Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism by Katherine Ketcham and William F. Asbury. But I didn't get it from the sticky. I can still type in spite of my lost brain cells! 
Indeed it is scary stuff. I can't imagine what that is like. I guess there's a documentary too about some second and I think third stage alcoholics. The title escapes me. It has the word "Rain" in the title I think. Maybe someone else knows.
Indeed it is scary stuff. I can't imagine what that is like. I guess there's a documentary too about some second and I think third stage alcoholics. The title escapes me. It has the word "Rain" in the title I think. Maybe someone else knows.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,385
Here it is. It was NewBeginning010 who initially posted this...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-10-parts.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-10-parts.html
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by queenteree 
When he was sober for the 3 mon. stints, he went to AA, even went when he was drunk ... didn't help. He was on Campral, didn't help. Even tried Topomax, didn't do any good. He is not a candidate for Naltrexone cause he has liver disease. But I don't think that would do any good either.
If someone doesn't want sobriety, nothing will help.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
There is always hope.
even if we appear to be hopeless..
im not sure what end stage alcoholism is ..but ken kindly quoted this..
"In the final stages of alcoholism, the drive to drink is so ferociously demanding that alcoholics often feel they have no choice but to obey the addicted brain's commands. Getting alcohol to the cells is the first priority; over time, it becomes the only priority".
thats me.........chronic alcoholic living on the streets..
money for food out weights money for booze period.
the hopeless variety........you would think.
only to recover and live a happy and fulfilling life.
with the help of god the 12 steps and aa.
not easy but i wanted it.........thats the deal...i wanted it.
it only becomes hopeless when a alcoholic is dead ...imo.
you are both in my prayers.......god be with you both.
even if we appear to be hopeless..
im not sure what end stage alcoholism is ..but ken kindly quoted this..
"In the final stages of alcoholism, the drive to drink is so ferociously demanding that alcoholics often feel they have no choice but to obey the addicted brain's commands. Getting alcohol to the cells is the first priority; over time, it becomes the only priority".
thats me.........chronic alcoholic living on the streets..
money for food out weights money for booze period.
the hopeless variety........you would think.
only to recover and live a happy and fulfilling life.
with the help of god the 12 steps and aa.
not easy but i wanted it.........thats the deal...i wanted it.
it only becomes hopeless when a alcoholic is dead ...imo.
you are both in my prayers.......god be with you both.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 818
I don't think anyone can give you an exact timeline as to how much longer your husband is going to live. From what you describe, I'd hazard a guess and say probably not much longer. There's nothing you can do for him at this point. You asked what's in store for YOU, and that's a good question. You've already begun moving in the right direction by recognizing the importance of taking care of yourself. That's what you have to concentrate on now, not your husband. He's already determined what's in store for him. What's in store for you depends on how well you care for yourself. Focus on your needs and the rest will fall into place.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
and if your husband is suffering from delerium tremens he should be in hospital...
if it helps i experienced..
severe tremors...ranging from muscle spasms to tremors in voice and limbs.
voices..whispers.....laughing.....all audible hallucinations.
mild to severe hallucinations ranging from seeing things out the corner of my eyes to monsters trying to get into my bed or through the window.
seizures or fits.....later on ..if i remember right..day 6 or 7.
raised heart beat.....blood pressure.
all this started with sweating...aggitation..high anxiety.
this is my experience.......please dont take this as a medical opinion.
if it helps i experienced..
severe tremors...ranging from muscle spasms to tremors in voice and limbs.
voices..whispers.....laughing.....all audible hallucinations.
mild to severe hallucinations ranging from seeing things out the corner of my eyes to monsters trying to get into my bed or through the window.
seizures or fits.....later on ..if i remember right..day 6 or 7.
raised heart beat.....blood pressure.
all this started with sweating...aggitation..high anxiety.
this is my experience.......please dont take this as a medical opinion.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,439
There is always hope queenteree.
This was me to a tee:
I'm not much for the jargon - I dunno if it was end stage alcoholism or not - but I'm eternally grateful that I had one moment of clarity one day and realised I was going to die...soon....and I didn't want to.
That fear was enough for me to never pick up a drink again in the last 2 and half years.
I'm gonna pray your husband has that moment too, (((Q))).
D
This was me to a tee:
he is drinking around the clock now, just drinks and passes out, drinks and passes out. Doesn't fish, play golf, doesn't even work. He is extremely drunk on a constant basis, can't even hold a conversation, and actually I believe hallucinates conversations that never took place. He can barely walk, and has to hold on to everything, he falls constantly.
That fear was enough for me to never pick up a drink again in the last 2 and half years.
I'm gonna pray your husband has that moment too, (((Q))).
D
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: KC MO
Posts: 980
Hello Queenteree.
I wen't to an AA meeting tonight, and one of the things that we talked about was how in the beginning AA members wen't to visit people like your husband. (Nowdays it's mostly visiting alcohol /drug programs).
My point is, the pioneers of AA were considered (hopeless). You say you have attended open meetings. Perhaps if you explain this to members in the AA hall, they could visit him, and give it one more shot. (I realize he will probably reject this). Do the people where he used to attend know how bad he is?
Did he have a sponser? Does he have any friends there?
If you (or they) can find the right person, it could maybe turn him around.
Just an idea.:praying
Fred
I wen't to an AA meeting tonight, and one of the things that we talked about was how in the beginning AA members wen't to visit people like your husband. (Nowdays it's mostly visiting alcohol /drug programs).
My point is, the pioneers of AA were considered (hopeless). You say you have attended open meetings. Perhaps if you explain this to members in the AA hall, they could visit him, and give it one more shot. (I realize he will probably reject this). Do the people where he used to attend know how bad he is?
Did he have a sponser? Does he have any friends there?
If you (or they) can find the right person, it could maybe turn him around.
Just an idea.:praying
Fred
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
To find out how to have your husband committed
and or declared mentally unstable
you need to ask a lawyer ...states differ as to requirements.
You could also discuss his decline with his doctor
getting an opinion on
And..... Prayers continue
and or declared mentally unstable
you need to ask a lawyer ...states differ as to requirements.
You could also discuss his decline with his doctor
getting an opinion on
What is wet brain ---
Dr. James West, Betty Ford Center
"Good question. The term wet brain refers to a very real condition known as Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. This chronic brain syndrome is caused by long-term alcoholism and is accompanied by a triad of symptoms: 1) mental disturbance; 2) confusion, drowsiness and paralysis of eye movements; and 3) ataxia or a staggering gait. A primary cause for this is a thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency due to severe malnutrition and poor intestinal absorption of food and vitamins caused by alcohol. The person with wet brain acts much like the Alzheimer’s victim with loss of recent memory, disorientation with regard to time and place, confusion and confabulation, or telling imagined and untrue experiences as truth. If wet brain is identified in its early onset, an infusion of thiamine (B1) may help. Unfortunately, there is no recovery from Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Therefore, it is one of the most tragic consequences of alcoholism."
Dr. James West, Betty Ford Center
"Good question. The term wet brain refers to a very real condition known as Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. This chronic brain syndrome is caused by long-term alcoholism and is accompanied by a triad of symptoms: 1) mental disturbance; 2) confusion, drowsiness and paralysis of eye movements; and 3) ataxia or a staggering gait. A primary cause for this is a thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency due to severe malnutrition and poor intestinal absorption of food and vitamins caused by alcohol. The person with wet brain acts much like the Alzheimer’s victim with loss of recent memory, disorientation with regard to time and place, confusion and confabulation, or telling imagined and untrue experiences as truth. If wet brain is identified in its early onset, an infusion of thiamine (B1) may help. Unfortunately, there is no recovery from Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Therefore, it is one of the most tragic consequences of alcoholism."
CHRONIC ALCOHOLISM — The individual becomes a loner in his drinking. He develops alibis, excuses and rationalizations to cover up or explain his drinking. Personality and behavior changes occur that affect all relationships — family, employment, community. Extended binges, physical tremors, hallucinations and delirium, complete rejection of social reality, malnutrition with accompanying illness and disease and early death all occur as chronic alcoholism progresses.
Source: American Medical Association
Source: American Medical Association
Last edited by CarolD; 09-10-2009 at 10:32 PM. Reason: dded Info
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