I agree with you 100%.

I don't know if you go to AA or not?

assuming that a person did go to AA and they had the power to choose if they drank or not, why would they go or need it?

not nit picking just curious.

Dave...your assertion that people lose their power to choose is incorrect. Once physical addiction is addressed we regain our ability to choose...some will choose to drink some will not.
I no longer attend aa as it was not a lifestyle I was willing to adopt.

Having the power to choose doesn't mean that the choice is an easy one.

we should agree to disagree then, I respect your views,

I do try though not to use my own experience as a yard stick to measure what I think is good or not good for others,

what I mean is because that is your experience does not make it the rule of thumb for all,

not criticizing, like I said I respect your views.

Dave

God bless you if you simply put down the drink, have clarity of mind to keep away from it, but for alcoholics that is not the case. Dave is actually 100% correct if we are talking about the alcoholic. If we are talking about a hard drinker then that is a different story. I know for a fact that I had no ability to choose.

Here the distinction - It wasn't I put a drink in my body and suddenly I'm powerless, of course that happened, but the issue is that I am powerless over the choice of whether or not I'm going to put the drink in my body.

If I had choice in the manner than there would be absolutely no reason for me to seek out help...there would be no problem. If I have a choice, how could there be a problem? In addition, I was not able to differentiate the true from the false.

Another thing, why would anyone take offense to not being an alcoholic? It isn't like being one is something highly regarded in society anyways.

Thanks Dave and likewise I think that your experience also would not be the rule of thumb for all. No criticism from me either.

For this alcoholic I didn't simply put down the drink and go on my merry way...lol
I put down the drink and worked damn hard to make sure that I wouldn't pick it up again.
I am sorry you feel you had lost your choice but feelings aren't facts.
I'm glad you found your way Ian but many choose to take a different path...thank God the destination is the same.

You make it sound like some mysterious supernatural force overtook your will and forced you to ingest alcohol.

an “ALCOHOLIC MIND” will produce the “INSIDIOUS INSANITY” to take another drink in spite of the alcoholic’s determination to stay off it.

Ask any alcoholic and they will tell you that they have lost the choice in the manner. They are unable to stay away no matter how great the necessity. The only times I stayed away was when I was in an institution. I would try with all my might to not pick up but suddenly I would be there lit up again not knowing how it happened.

Being that I couldn't live without it, my mind craved it every second and I was so agitated without it that in order for me to feel "OK" I needed it in my body. I needed that ease and comfort to face the world...if you want to call it that. I had lost the ability in choice, I could not just say no or think through the first drink. I can not remember the pain or humilation or the last time and thus I think that this time is going to be different. That is why I lost the power of choice. If I could choose then problem solved and I sure wouldn't be on a recovery website.

Man I sure relate to "insidious insanity"....still doesn't negate our power to choose.

Sounds like addiction to me.

My mind cannot remember the misery and humiliation I suffered only a few days prior to needing that first couple of drinks. The result of which is that the REAL alcoholic will begin drinking one more time. And as Dr. Silkworth stated, “This is repeated over and over, and unless I can experience an entire psychic change there is little hope of my recovery.”

I could never manage the decision to stay stopped because of the INSIDIOUS INSANITY

I am curious as to why this issue is so important for those who choose aa as a program of recovery. Why must an alcoholic believe they are powerless? What purpose does it serve to reduce us incapable of exerting the one thing that separates us from the animals?
I am an alcoholic and I am not and never was powerless....I was incapable of making rational decisions during active addiction....but still not powerless.

Just because people seek peer support to help them sustain their resolve doesn't negate choice. And not all alcoholics will agree with you, just the ones who subscribe to AA doctine, and not even all of those will agree. I've seen plenty of debates on that one within AA.

Dave...I understand the insanity.....I drank like that...still can't believe it sometimes...the sheer desperation...so much so that I spent a lot of time thinking about how fast I had to drive into a telephone pole in order to end it. Please do not minimize my experience by quoting a "theory" that I do not subscribe to. Dr. Silkwood had an opinion...nothing more.

I could not break the cycle of obsession with my human will, when I saw the hopelessness of my situation, that I am powerless then I became open minded and willing enough to do anything to have the obsession lifted,

It was always my choice to pick up that drink again. I would always fool myself saying I will only catch a little buzz and stop.....well my alcoholism kicked in when I would completely lose all control over my drinking despite having important stuff later that night or the next day....and get wasted drunk. The next day being like what the hell was I thinking....when I get a little bit in me....it ignites a fire inside me that yearns for more. And I would try and get more......sometimes too hard. Oh and those little surveys they have you fill out in treatment exams about your drinking.....I answered yes to like 98% of those questions as at one point in my drinking career I did just that

I understand that this is what you believe Dave...if this is what makes your sobriety rock solid don't worry about my opinion...it has no bearing on you. However many real alcoholics like myself can and do break the obsession with human will alone and I thank God for that everyday. Your way...my way and Doorknobs way all work.