The majority of alcoholics recover from alcohlism without AA
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Originally Posted by SelfSeeking 
:ghug3
Thanks Bam.
This is from the rest of that interview w/ George Vaillant from the Grapevine... There was some selective cutting and pasting in the OP and I think some of what was cut and NOT pasted is very good for us all to keep in mind.
"But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call "substitute dependency" doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses.
And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's "little" sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough."
I hope at least some people bother to follow those links and read the data with a critical eye. Some of that "research" is pretty fluffy- not published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal; very small and homogenous sample sizes; or dated; or confuses AA recovery with the success of rehab or intensive outpatient (IOP) therapy. I am of the opinion that an organization like AA is one of those things that is going to be hard to nail down with success rates for all the reasons that have been discussed on so many other threads.
I just know I'm happier sober with AA than I was abstaining without it. And so are my friends and family, when they interact with me
That's enough for me.
Thanks Bam.
This is from the rest of that interview w/ George Vaillant from the Grapevine... There was some selective cutting and pasting in the OP and I think some of what was cut and NOT pasted is very good for us all to keep in mind.
"But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call "substitute dependency" doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses.
And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's "little" sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough."
I hope at least some people bother to follow those links and read the data with a critical eye. Some of that "research" is pretty fluffy- not published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal; very small and homogenous sample sizes; or dated; or confuses AA recovery with the success of rehab or intensive outpatient (IOP) therapy. I am of the opinion that an organization like AA is one of those things that is going to be hard to nail down with success rates for all the reasons that have been discussed on so many other threads.
I just know I'm happier sober with AA than I was abstaining without it. And so are my friends and family, when they interact with me
That's enough for me.That most alcoholics who quit drinking do so without the help of AA
I have had people say to me if you don't go to meetings you will drink they know nothing about me and they should allow me to discover if that is true myself.
Overall AA is full of good people getting sober. But in my experience I have lost a great social support group because its become dominated by big book thumpers.
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
It's evened up DK is back!
Ladies and gentleman in the red corner we have DK and Kurt, in the blue corner we have the challengers Ian_g and Self seeking....let's get ready to rumble!!!! Ding ding....
Ladies and gentleman in the red corner we have DK and Kurt, in the blue corner we have the challengers Ian_g and Self seeking....let's get ready to rumble!!!! Ding ding....
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Originally Posted by SelfSeeking
You realize you just demanded evidence then followed it with anecdotal "proof"? An amazingly high percentage of Americans (and I assume you are living in America, based on your location) attend church, so I suggest you take a look at your biases... and btw I'm a Happy Heathen.
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Yes I agree I do use many of the ingredients of AA like not letting people get to me, peergroup etc etc. George Valliants study is pretty well regarded. There was no selective cut and pasting the source I got from didn't have the rest of the interview, but I had have included it, it wouldn't have made any difference to the statement.
That most alcoholics who quit drinking do so without the help of AA
I have had people say to me if you don't go to meetings you will drink they no nothing about me and they should allow me to discover if that is true myself.
Overall AA is full of good people getting sober. But in my experience I have lost a great social support group because its become dominated by big book thumpers.
That most alcoholics who quit drinking do so without the help of AA
I have had people say to me if you don't go to meetings you will drink they no nothing about me and they should allow me to discover if that is true myself.
Overall AA is full of good people getting sober. But in my experience I have lost a great social support group because its become dominated by big book thumpers.
If however you are an alcoholic simply going to meetings and not drinking is not enough. The time and place will come where the alcoholic without any defense against the first drink will pick up again. An alcoholic who does no work on themselves and doesn't implement a program into their life still has an alcoholic mind.
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I do attend AA and I am very happy with my recovery program today. But I would NEVER say or think that AA is for everyone or the only way to learn to live happy, joyous and free in sobriety. And I guess I am blessed because no one in my support circle would say that either.
I got sober 14 years ago and AA did not work for me. All I could see was the differences, not the similarities. I did go back out for 10 years. Today I am desperate to stay sober and I want more than that, I want peace. I am finding it today. But that does not mean what works for me would work for someone else.
Find what works for you and work it!
I got sober 14 years ago and AA did not work for me. All I could see was the differences, not the similarities. I did go back out for 10 years. Today I am desperate to stay sober and I want more than that, I want peace. I am finding it today. But that does not mean what works for me would work for someone else.
Find what works for you and work it!
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
Kurt glad that anti depressants are helping you and in turn keeping you sober. I think regardless of whether they are prescribed short term (6 months) or longer term they are an incredibly powerful help to people struggling with depression and/or anxiety who may be using alcohol to self medicate those problems.
I only ask this out of interest but did anyone at AA hint that you did not need medication and following AA would be the answer for you?
I only ask this out of interest but did anyone at AA hint that you did not need medication and following AA would be the answer for you?
That's the good thing with AA you can shop around and find a meeting that suites you and if n sute then move on.
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Oh no Kurt's from the UK, I'm from the UK, sorry guys i've got to switch sides;-)
Selfseeking I know it's all just a good debate don't worry :ghug
Just read your reply Kurt, it is a disgrace to anyone at AA that a member should comment on your medication in that manner and these sort of complete bellends should be given a damn good hiding!
Selfseeking I know it's all just a good debate don't worry :ghug
Just read your reply Kurt, it is a disgrace to anyone at AA that a member should comment on your medication in that manner and these sort of complete bellends should be given a damn good hiding!
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Originally Posted by SelfSeeking
Hells no!!! We are buds... we all want to get/stay sober. I'm just rubbing a couple of brain cells together for sh!ts and giggles.
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The poster who says AA is the only way is a rare one these days and they're usually a newcomer to sobriety, if not the site.
The rest of us know better. I have nearly 2 years no AA at all - 51anna has 8 years I think. They're lots of others here who've made long term recoveries with other programmes.
How many more pages are we gonna waste on this?
I made up my opinion about AA a long time ago.
I'd much rather hear what's worked for you, Kurt
D
The rest of us know better. I have nearly 2 years no AA at all - 51anna has 8 years I think. They're lots of others here who've made long term recoveries with other programmes.
How many more pages are we gonna waste on this?
I made up my opinion about AA a long time ago.
I'd much rather hear what's worked for you, Kurt
D
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There's a Lincoln in the UK?? Sorry, I was thinking of Nebraska. Sorry I came across as picking on you. In all fairness, I thought we were talking research. You're the one who started the thread by "attacking", in your own words.
99% of Secular Recovery posters think Bamboozle smells like roses... the other 1% have colds.
Hi guests!
99% of Secular Recovery posters think Bamboozle smells like roses... the other 1% have colds.
Hi guests!
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery
These threads really only create discord and agitation. They are seldom useful. Seen them to many times and I don't understand why people who have successful recovery just don't share their own experience and how it worked for them? Why dwell on the negative and negate another program? IMO, it is a total waste of time and is tiresome.
Why can anybody be offended by the statement
The majority of alcoholics who quit drinking do so without AA.
There is lots of help out there aswell as AA
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This is the only time I will post on this thread.
You say that you aren't attacking AA or it's effectiveness. You say you are only attacking people that say AA is the only way.
My only question is why attack anyone?
You say that you aren't attacking AA or it's effectiveness. You say you are only attacking people that say AA is the only way.
My only question is why attack anyone?
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I started this thread because navysteve asked me by PM twice to quote my sources and said I was b**********g and making very false claims.
Once again I haven't attacked the program of AA. If it suites you fantastic.
Once again I haven't attacked the program of AA. If it suites you fantastic.
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Originally Posted by SelfSeeking
There's a Lincoln in the UK??
99% of Secular Recovery posters think Bamboozle smells like roses... the other 1% have colds.
true tho 
D
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Originally Posted by jimhere
This is the only time I will post on this thread.
You say that you aren't attacking AA or it's effectiveness. You say you are only attacking people that say AA is the only way.
My only question is why attack anyone?
You say that you aren't attacking AA or it's effectiveness. You say you are only attacking people that say AA is the only way.
My only question is why attack anyone?
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Originally Posted by ian_g
No the Big Book defines the alcoholic as an individual who can not stop on self-knowledge alone.
What it boils down to is this: The alcoholic has a mind that can't stop thinking about it and a body that can't live without it. The alcoholic can't stay stopped because when they stop, they no longer have a solution to life's problems. The solution used to be alcohol and now with no solution they are forced to pick it back up again.
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Kurt...I did see where Steve did ask you to quote or provide your sources in a recent thread. Thank you for doing so.
I have read the same study that you provided...in addition to the Harvard Medical School study...and the hundreds of other articles relating to this issue. The truth is available to anyone who seeks it.
Kurt didn't cite the whole study as it is too long to post here but in short Dr. Vaillant's question was: does the A.A. program improve on the percentage of alcoholics who undergo spontaneous remission?
His conclusion.........
“Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.”
I thank you again for providing your source.
I have read the same study that you provided...in addition to the Harvard Medical School study...and the hundreds of other articles relating to this issue. The truth is available to anyone who seeks it.
Kurt didn't cite the whole study as it is too long to post here but in short Dr. Vaillant's question was: does the A.A. program improve on the percentage of alcoholics who undergo spontaneous remission?
His conclusion.........
“Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.”
I thank you again for providing your source.
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