Is alcoholism a disease?
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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I think of alchoholism as a disease just cause its what i've been taught to do...when i analize it...i don't know...i know it is physical in nature sorta like diabedis which i also have (but can't spell lol).
What i was told which is why i don't worry about it too much was that when an alchoholic is told they are a sick person trying to get better, not a bad person trying to get good they tend to recover...and that has been true for me....is it a crutch...a lie....???? well...it seems to be one that works at the moment and if it isn't true i figure i'll realize it at some point and then deal with it....but debating it doesn't seem to help me out much
Course i am notorius for mis using words ... it's my forte (lol)
What i was told which is why i don't worry about it too much was that when an alchoholic is told they are a sick person trying to get better, not a bad person trying to get good they tend to recover...and that has been true for me....is it a crutch...a lie....???? well...it seems to be one that works at the moment and if it isn't true i figure i'll realize it at some point and then deal with it....but debating it doesn't seem to help me out much
Course i am notorius for mis using words ... it's my forte (lol)
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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[QUOTE=ananda;2127299]Iit seems to be one that works at the moment and if it isn't true i figure i'll realize it at some point and then deal with it....but debating it doesn't seem to help me out much
Sorry this hasnt helped you out, and your right if it works for you, thats fantastic, however, for me, I cannot accept it, and I just wanted some thoughts from others who feel the same to see if it could help me.. Thanks
Sorry this hasnt helped you out, and your right if it works for you, thats fantastic, however, for me, I cannot accept it, and I just wanted some thoughts from others who feel the same to see if it could help me.. Thanks
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I think that it's all about belief systems. If you believe that you suffer from a disease, then you think, feel, and act accordingly. If you don't believe in the disease model, your approach might be different. What matters is the end result, and all points of view agree on it: if you don't want to be a drunk, then don't drink!
However, though I disagree with the disease model, I eventually chose to stop thinking so much
However, though I disagree with the disease model, I eventually chose to stop thinking so much
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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If you believe its a disease, then how can you hold alcoholics accountable for what they do while they're drunk? In other words, if they do something horrendous under the influence when driving then you can argue it was out of their control because they're diseased, and therefore not charge them with a crime.. If a person has a heart attack while driving we certainly wouldnt hold him accountable if in that brief second he crashed his car.
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Eroica, that's an interesting point. I have always felt that the disease model has allowed the powerlessness myth to fester.
While the courts take drinking and driving very seriously and do not hesitate to hold those accountable, i often wonder if the disease model of alcoholism is sometimes responsible for relapses.
While the courts take drinking and driving very seriously and do not hesitate to hold those accountable, i often wonder if the disease model of alcoholism is sometimes responsible for relapses.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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It would really help me in this thread if people could give some idea of how long they've been sober. I think that's the great arbiter of whether something works or not. I know this sounds like an invitation to pull sober rank, but I think it's dead important when we're discussing something like this that we get an idea of not just what people's beliefs are but how well those beliefs serve them.
I spent most of my drinking career arguinbg that alcoholsim wasn't a disease and that ppowerlessness was a load of bunk, and my drinking got worse.
Five years and eight months ago I accepted that I was powerless over alcohol - that I had a disease, for want of a better word - and I took responsibility for the unmanageable mess that my life had become. I haven't had a drink since. I've had the craving removed - or certainly it's gone.
There are newcomers reading this thread. They may be swayed by the opinions here. So let's just put it out there - disease model has served me well for more than five years. How about you?
I spent most of my drinking career arguinbg that alcoholsim wasn't a disease and that ppowerlessness was a load of bunk, and my drinking got worse.
Five years and eight months ago I accepted that I was powerless over alcohol - that I had a disease, for want of a better word - and I took responsibility for the unmanageable mess that my life had become. I haven't had a drink since. I've had the craving removed - or certainly it's gone.
There are newcomers reading this thread. They may be swayed by the opinions here. So let's just put it out there - disease model has served me well for more than five years. How about you?
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LOL I'm not sure I'm with you on the sobertime argument Paul - I'm unconvinced we have to bring our 'length of service' in to bolster our arguments.
I've known some long termers who had, in my opinion, some pretty dodgy ideas about addiction/recovery...but the people were technically sober.
LOL if someone had 50 years, and they believed they had been possessed by a demon named Trevor, would that view then hold sway?
My personal experience is I freely admit I don't know what alcoholism is - and don't much care.
I'm not at all scientifically minded - never have been - I'm in to feelings and emotions and...all manner of wibbly wobbly non quantifiable 'stuff'.
All I know is...drink make Dee go bad.
That's enough for me. It's served me perfectly well for night upon two years, but I'm not sure that means diddly to anyone else LOL.
It might go against ideas of scientific validity and empiricism, but I believe sooner or later we each find some concept of alcoholism that makes some kind of sense to us, and we work with that.
I doubt we're gonna find an objective truth here, but I'll leave you all with it
D
I've known some long termers who had, in my opinion, some pretty dodgy ideas about addiction/recovery...but the people were technically sober.
LOL if someone had 50 years, and they believed they had been possessed by a demon named Trevor, would that view then hold sway?
My personal experience is I freely admit I don't know what alcoholism is - and don't much care.
I'm not at all scientifically minded - never have been - I'm in to feelings and emotions and...all manner of wibbly wobbly non quantifiable 'stuff'.
All I know is...drink make Dee go bad.
That's enough for me. It's served me perfectly well for night upon two years, but I'm not sure that means diddly to anyone else LOL.
It might go against ideas of scientific validity and empiricism, but I believe sooner or later we each find some concept of alcoholism that makes some kind of sense to us, and we work with that.
I doubt we're gonna find an objective truth here, but I'll leave you all with it
D
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I know you're right Dee, about length of sobriety, but honestly I get confused with some of the things that are written. I did spend a lot of time making a "study" of alcoholism before I got sober and I found that pretty much all that knolwedge was academic.
The disease concept was really fundamental to me getting sober. It changed how I lived with my alcoholism. I don't really like to see people throwing the baby out with the bath water - and particulalrly if they can't get sober themselves - in other words they're still ligving in the problem rather than the solution. And would it be fair to say for yourself - that until such time as you lived in the solution, you couldn't imagine or conceive of what that solution was like? Anyway, taht was true for me. I feel very different in recovery than I did before recovery. So what that means is that people are throwing out things like the disease concept - without actually knowing how it works.
Good to see you by the way!
The disease concept was really fundamental to me getting sober. It changed how I lived with my alcoholism. I don't really like to see people throwing the baby out with the bath water - and particulalrly if they can't get sober themselves - in other words they're still ligving in the problem rather than the solution. And would it be fair to say for yourself - that until such time as you lived in the solution, you couldn't imagine or conceive of what that solution was like? Anyway, taht was true for me. I feel very different in recovery than I did before recovery. So what that means is that people are throwing out things like the disease concept - without actually knowing how it works.
Good to see you by the way!
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I don't really like to see people throwing the baby out with the bath water - and particulalrly if they can't get sober themselves - in other words they're still ligving in the problem rather than the solution.
I had to come to my recovery with a mind as open as I could possibly make it...I nearly died...and I so badly wanted to live - I wanted that second chance.
So I examined everything, no matter how risible I may have found it, and tried to leave my pride and arrogance and my preconceptions out of it as much as possible.
It wasn't easy, and it's still not - I had, and still sometimes have, to swallow a lot of...well lets say humble pie. I listened a lot.
I wanted to know as much as possible, have as much knowledge as I could (even if I did veer toward the wibbly wobbly stuff LOL) to beat this thing once and for all.
Like you say, I know me then, and I know me now.
I tried many times to fix myself while in the midst of addiction. Not surprisingly? I failed.
To me, to succeed you need perspective, you need patience, you need humility, and you need commitment...none of which I had in any particular abundance until I stopped drinking...and was posting here a good couple of months.
Good to see you too mate
D
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Originally Posted by paulmh 
It would really help me in this thread if people could give some idea of how long they've been sober. I think that's the great arbiter of whether something works or not. I know this sounds like an invitation to pull sober rank, but I think it's dead important when we're discussing something like this that we get an idea of not just what people's beliefs are but how well those beliefs serve them.
I spent most of my drinking career arguinbg that alcoholsim wasn't a disease and that ppowerlessness was a load of bunk, and my drinking got worse.
Five years and eight months ago I accepted that I was powerless over alcohol - that I had a disease, for want of a better word - and I took responsibility for the unmanageable mess that my life had become. I haven't had a drink since. I've had the craving removed - or certainly it's gone.
There are newcomers reading this thread. They may be swayed by the opinions here. So let's just put it out there - disease model has served me well for more than five years. How about you?
I spent most of my drinking career arguinbg that alcoholsim wasn't a disease and that ppowerlessness was a load of bunk, and my drinking got worse.
Five years and eight months ago I accepted that I was powerless over alcohol - that I had a disease, for want of a better word - and I took responsibility for the unmanageable mess that my life had become. I haven't had a drink since. I've had the craving removed - or certainly it's gone.
There are newcomers reading this thread. They may be swayed by the opinions here. So let's just put it out there - disease model has served me well for more than five years. How about you?
IMO there are generally 2 types of people who obsess over alcohol, those trying to look for a solution and people in AA (who the majority support the disease theory). Therefore this is reflected in respondents to this thread
I have found people who recover from alcoholism who don't go to AA (which is the majority of alcoholics) generally don't make alcohology there hobby they forgot about alcohol and just accept they can't drink. Whereas a people in AA tend to obsssess over it and quite few (minority but dominant guru types) in AA think reading the big book and long term sobriety makes them an expert on alcoholism. Which means supporting the disease theory of alcoholism.
I do understand where you are coming from with your acceptance paul but I think peoples replies on this thread are very balanced, nobody has given the impression that they don't have a disease therefore they can drink normally.
I'm in the camp of thinking its not a disease anymore than smoking is but I am well aware that I am powerless over alcohol once I pick up that first drink.
I will say calling it a disease has its benefits and drawbacks as people have mentioned.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Sobriety date - 15th Oct 2008
Method - counselling twice a week, one to one and group
AA - Will be going to AA in order to learn how to live sober. I am doing ok but it is like learning a new way of living. I will also be going because it will be a great way to meet like minded people. I have read the big book and working the steps seems to me that it will make me a happier and more content person in sobriety. I don't care if it is flawed, right or wrong, outdated etc. I have met long term people who are able to stay sober and happy for the rest of their lives. I have never met a sober person with a good amount of time behind them that was a true alcoholic using alternative programs. I have met a lot of people who use alternatives and keep relapsing. I'm just basing my decision on my life experiences, people I have met and common sense.
Method - counselling twice a week, one to one and group
AA - Will be going to AA in order to learn how to live sober. I am doing ok but it is like learning a new way of living. I will also be going because it will be a great way to meet like minded people. I have read the big book and working the steps seems to me that it will make me a happier and more content person in sobriety. I don't care if it is flawed, right or wrong, outdated etc. I have met long term people who are able to stay sober and happy for the rest of their lives. I have never met a sober person with a good amount of time behind them that was a true alcoholic using alternative programs. I have met a lot of people who use alternatives and keep relapsing. I'm just basing my decision on my life experiences, people I have met and common sense.
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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For me it is very simple...I can't drink alcohol without the consequences being dire. That does not mean I have a disease...especially one I am powerless over. I think putting those two words together...disease and powerless spells disaster...I have seen the damage it does first hand and it is deadly.
yeaghr...I would venture to say that you actually have met true alcoholics with a "good amount of time" behind them that have used alternative programs or the old fashioned DIY program. Many are here at SR. Maybe you just haven't realized it.
yeaghr...I would venture to say that you actually have met true alcoholics with a "good amount of time" behind them that have used alternative programs or the old fashioned DIY program. Many are here at SR. Maybe you just haven't realized it.
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Join Date: May 2008
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I have found people who recover from alcoholism who don't go to AA (which is the majority of alcoholics) .
alcohology is the scientific theorized, or study of the hydroxyl compound Alcohol, in partial, or as a whole.
I don't believe we do that at all.
Whereas a people in AA tend to obsssess over it
seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We
react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any
thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had
been places in a position of neutrality—safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.
react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any
thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had
been places in a position of neutrality—safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.
reading the big book and long term sobriety makes them an expert on alcoholism.
Don't confuse the Gurus with the recovered. There are more of us than there are them. We even sit in the back row at the meetings.
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Anyone can call it anything they like...I don't believe in the disease model.
Just from reading countless thousands of posts at SR, I realize that addiction and the circumstances behind it/around it are extremely varied...this condition manifests in different ways in everyone. That is why there isn't a “one size fits all” method to recovery.
I’m not an expert, but I do understand that brains are fairly complex and that the medical community doesn’t even come close to understanding the finer points.
In regards to recovery, some common themes:
Some folks quit/relapse and after enough time passes, they move on with their lives sober.
Others quit/relapse…struggle, and find that they need face to face support….they get that and move on with their lives sober.
There are those who quit/relapse…they may obtain sobriety or not…and realize that there’s more to it than the drinking. Some of these folks can beat this on their own once they work through their problems…many find they can’t do it alone and receive professional help to become/remain sober.
Just from reading countless thousands of posts at SR, I realize that addiction and the circumstances behind it/around it are extremely varied...this condition manifests in different ways in everyone. That is why there isn't a “one size fits all” method to recovery.
I’m not an expert, but I do understand that brains are fairly complex and that the medical community doesn’t even come close to understanding the finer points.
In regards to recovery, some common themes:
Some folks quit/relapse and after enough time passes, they move on with their lives sober.
Others quit/relapse…struggle, and find that they need face to face support….they get that and move on with their lives sober.
There are those who quit/relapse…they may obtain sobriety or not…and realize that there’s more to it than the drinking. Some of these folks can beat this on their own once they work through their problems…many find they can’t do it alone and receive professional help to become/remain sober.
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This is a classic AA argument used to try to invalidate newcomers views and enforce Big Book ideology
And honest, I don't think about booze. I go to wet places when the need arises and it doesn't bother me. I only really think about my alcoholism when I do my morning meditation and when I pop in to SR or other websites - which is infrequently. I remember vividly what it's like to suffer in drink, and all I'm doing when I come here is telling people how I recovered from that. I'm not a religiouos man but it's nothing short of a miracle that someone like me, who certainly DID obsess about booze, can now have such a relaxed attitude towards the substance. All I have to do is make sure none gets in my system. Why? Becuae I've got a disease!
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The debate that alcoholism is a disease will rage on for eons I suspect...each one of us entitled to our own beliefs on the matter. It is my opinion that if alcoholism was truly a medical disease science would be much further along in finding a cure. Behaviors are not diseases...some like smoking and drinking may lead to true diseases but they are not diseases by themselves.
Fortunately for me and my sobriety I don't debate the issue with myself...I like paulmh am armed with the knowledge that I can't allow any alcohol into my system...pretty simple really...I do what it takes to get the job done...been working for me coming on 2 years.
Fortunately for me and my sobriety I don't debate the issue with myself...I like paulmh am armed with the knowledge that I can't allow any alcohol into my system...pretty simple really...I do what it takes to get the job done...been working for me coming on 2 years.
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I am in agreement 100% with kurtrambis on all accounts.
I believe that there are as many ways to find long term sobriety as there are people in this world. it's purely a matter of finding what works for you individually. that can be a program of some sort, a support group, therapy, but at the end of the day it is up to you. No one is going to keep anyone sober.
Yeagr8. there are thousands and thousands of people worldwide who stop abusing alcohol on their own, in fact i have read studies that have claimed 80%. You are looking at one option being AA. Not everyone chooses to get involved in AA or any other alternative to AA. I say respectfully, how can you say that you haven't seen any long term sobriety in those that used alternatives? As Kurtrambis mentioned and I concur, not everyone obsesses over their past substance abusing lifestyle for the rest of their life. In my opinion that is not healthy. I've been to AA meetings where their are people who haven't had a drink for 20 years and they're still talking about it like it was still happening.
I know I can't drink. Period, end of story and oh yes...I DO have a defense against that first drink, because I choose not to drink and enjoy a healthy happy alcohol free life, but more importantly, I live my life.
I believe that there are as many ways to find long term sobriety as there are people in this world. it's purely a matter of finding what works for you individually. that can be a program of some sort, a support group, therapy, but at the end of the day it is up to you. No one is going to keep anyone sober.
Yeagr8. there are thousands and thousands of people worldwide who stop abusing alcohol on their own, in fact i have read studies that have claimed 80%. You are looking at one option being AA. Not everyone chooses to get involved in AA or any other alternative to AA. I say respectfully, how can you say that you haven't seen any long term sobriety in those that used alternatives? As Kurtrambis mentioned and I concur, not everyone obsesses over their past substance abusing lifestyle for the rest of their life. In my opinion that is not healthy. I've been to AA meetings where their are people who haven't had a drink for 20 years and they're still talking about it like it was still happening.
I know I can't drink. Period, end of story and oh yes...I DO have a defense against that first drink, because I choose not to drink and enjoy a healthy happy alcohol free life, but more importantly, I live my life.
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Navysteve,
Nor am I trying to stir anything up, although it often seems to be seen as such when someone has a different opinion.
Having spent 2 years and 7 months in AA out of 4 years of not drinking, much of the information I had was courtesy of AA and AA approved literature. There are a boat load of books out there that differ in opinions set out in the BB, based on research that is current.
I wouldn't seek legal advice based on 1935 observational data, nor would I see a dentist who practiced based on what was available in 1935. i suppose i could list a few other examples.
Nor am I trying to stir anything up, although it often seems to be seen as such when someone has a different opinion.
Having spent 2 years and 7 months in AA out of 4 years of not drinking, much of the information I had was courtesy of AA and AA approved literature. There are a boat load of books out there that differ in opinions set out in the BB, based on research that is current.
I wouldn't seek legal advice based on 1935 observational data, nor would I see a dentist who practiced based on what was available in 1935. i suppose i could list a few other examples.
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