gerryP

The Kook Factor...it goes with the territory.

You got that right Tomas. Being one yourself would make it easy for you to spot one.

BackToSquareOne

Tomas, the gaping hole I see in your philosophy of helping others is that you assume that there is a "one size fits all" approach that will work for everyone. The whole whack them over the head with a 2x4, get tough, tough love, drill sergeant approach may be just the ticket for some but I seriously doubt that it would work for everyone.

Alcoholics are people and as such are also as different as night and day. They come from every walk of life, all ages, races, creeds, colors, educational backgrounds, male and female etc. etc.. Some are young and naive while others have been around the block more than once. Some are quite functional drunks while others have been to hell and back again with the disease. Some are deeply religious while others are atheists or agnostics.

The very nature of some people is that they tend to question everything to the Nth degree. They refuse to be led around by the nose and told what to do and how to do it. Your approach will be of little value to this group and if anything will drive them away. Life would be so much easier if there really was a "one size fits all" approach to everything unfortunately that is just not the case.

gerryP

Why isn't this post CLOSED by now? It's trolling.

There's an empty bed somewhere and the nurses haven't done their morning count.

navysteve

Lets see how that matches up to the Big Book:

Page 95- Never talk down to any alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection.


Page 93- use everyday language to describe to describe spiritual principles

Page 160- The very practical approach to his problems, the absence of intolerance of any kind, the informality, the genuine democracy, the uncanny understanding which these people had were irresistable. .

None of that matches :

Where I am falling short with your posts:

Page 19-20- Most of us sense that real tolerance of other peoples shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes that make more useful to others. Our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend on our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs.

I have a real hard time seeing you as the sick alcoholic that your posts show you to be. The fact that you irritate so many people shows that you are not being of maximum service to others. I am sure that you have a very clever retort to this. And I am certain that I am seen as a mere peasant who is too simple to grasp the very complex and long winded posts that you go through so much time to compose for us simple folks. I understand the value of brutal honesty. I deal with real truth everyday. I have been sober long enough to have people listen to me when I speak based on nothing more than my sobriety date, and I know that time is nothing more than a date on a calendar if not backed up by the practice of the AA program.

Page 58- If you have decided that you want what we have...

Sir,
With all due respect, you have absolutely nothing I want. I do apologize if this post is barbed with anger but as you said:

And from my own experience, that fake ass hard routine has killed more alcoholics than a friendly handshake. When i came into AA they welcomed me like I was the Prodigal son. When I was ready to get busy, they helped, when I balked, they let me find my way, always pointing me towards the book and away from their egos and opinions about my conviction.

Sober through the grace of God since 10-15-1989

yeahgr8

Well i have rung my co-worker who is a recovering alcoholic with 3+ years behind her and she is going to recommend a meeting. I am nervous but cannot wait to go to one. I have to say I hope it is a meeting that navysteve might attend rather than Tomas, at least for my first few!

Now that I am going to an AA meeting I would like to say i find all of you enjoying sobriety through non AA self recovery programs deeply offensive to me and my new AA friends to be! LMAO!

NB That was a joke, don't kick me too!!!

navysteve

Yeahgr8,
I have been to meetings in Spain and found them to be great!!!!! ( Albeit, only had a chance to attend a few in Rota and Cadiz). Good luck to you my friend and remember this, no jerk-off ever ran us out of a bar and into AA, please do not the likes of Tomas keep you from coming into an AA meeting and finding true recovery

BackToSquareOne

Think about this Tomas, a soldier in boot camp must be told what to do and how to do it as they must to an extent change his way of thinking to that of the military if he is going to survive as part of the group. In this case it truely is a matter of life and death as the military is using time proven techniques. The unit must function cohesively or you would have chaos if everyone was doing their own thing.

At face value that analogy seems to support your approach, but really it does not. The disease of alcoholism is much too complex and there are just too many variables, many alcoholics also suffer from a lot of other mental health issues. In treating alcoholism your not running a group of candidates through boot camp, you are however trying to treat a very complex disease process. I would never be so arrogant as to even suggest that there is a "One Size Fits All" approach to the problem.

stone

I haven't bothered reading Tomas's later posts because, apparently my comprehension isn't very good.

gravity

Hey least, take the high road.

I'm beyond letting words on a screen get me down. There are posts that I read that my mind kind of processes as "blah, blah, blah...whatever". I have better things to do.

gerryP

Yeah........(sigh)

No point in waisting time reading something we're not going to understand...(LMAO)


Bla, bla, bla, blablabla...Bla..bbbbbbbblllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

least

I do feel very sorry for him. I hope I never treat my friends so unkindly. I was in an abusive relationship and know full well the '2x4' method of teaching, maybe that's why it touched a nerve. I believe with all my heart that kindness ALWAYS is better. And tho I have my doubts about God and His son, I seem to remember that Christ NEVER hit back, not even hanging from a cross. Whether I believe or not, I try to follow that example. I'd rather die from being too kind than from being too mean.

Toomutch

The 2 x 4 method was a contributing factor that led to my drinking in the first place. How in the he!! would this method keep someone sober, unless they were knocked unconcious?

gerryP

Oh I think we all know that the "2x4" method is about control. Bullies who have no perceived control over their own lives try to control others.

Tough love means humiliating and demeaning other individuals in order to raise their curb level self esteem.

doorknob

does that have to do with anything?

Least is not an atheist.

For many of us, reaching bottom has nothing to do with being an atheist.

Least is not a young male (although it would still be condescending).

Thanks for creating a contrast that has allowed me to more clearly see what AA is really about, atleast for some people...

and

for allowing me the opportunity to use one of my favorite emoticons.

least

I try so hard to love others, whether they 'deserve' my love or not. I try to do unto others as I would have done unto me. Love is ALWAYS better. And if I love others, I won't die feeling guilty for having hated when I should have loved. My beloved Beatles said it best: Love is all you need. Even when revenge would taste sweet, love will taste better.

gerryP

Yes Doorknob. Me thinks our self confessed literary genius doesn't read and comprehend the written word as well as he might think he does.

gerryP

Yeahgr8,

Well at least you know you won't be attending a meeting WITH Tomas, cuz he's sail'n around the world, throwing mutts overboard at customs.

At least that's what I got out of his post.

doorknob

warrens

I have to avoid entering this kind of thread, regardless of how passionate my feelings. Not good for my mental and spiritual health to trade ad hominems. No one learns in these exchanges anyway.

All I know is that the perpetrators of 9/11 were privy to "the truth." The "one way." We apparently were poor learners... They got their 72 virgins and we got angry.

It makes me sad when I read of the newcomers fear and loathing for AA and they have never been to a meeting. They are depriving themselves of a serious opportunity. What are they afraid of? I think the discourse in this thread is what they are afraid of. Truth is, it hasn't been a part of any meeting I have attended.

The principle of "all that is required is a DESIRE to stop drinking" needs to be stretched once in a while. It's not often pleasant to accomodate someone who is 3 sheets to the wind at a meeting. I do think it is necessary, however.

When one throws thunderbolts, all one receives is retaliation. Look at Gaza. No one has been "persuaded" by the other since 1948! The power of attraction makes a Gandhi or a Dr. King. The power of repulsion makes a tyrant.

This is directed at no one. It is simply my feeling. My fear of AA was immediately allayed by the power of attraction, fed by the uncritical support I received. Had I been repelled by some "Thor" or "Zeus" my life may have turned out for the worse. It is the rose that attracts us, not the thorns.

warren

SavageHurricane

I was thinking this place is so amazing because everyone is so lovely and there doesn't seem to be any fighting. And now I read this. It's very sad to see such a disintegration into the kind of behaviour seen on other message boards.