Music

Hi again Don,
You know, I was thinking after I posted last and I have to apologize. You're right! Absolutely right. I do use my will power!
I will go to AA meetings. I will ask God for help each morning. I will have a sponsor. I will call my sponsor at least once a week to let him know how I'm doing. I will perform service work to return to those what they so freely gave to me. I will do 12 step work when called on to do so. I will participate in speaker meetings when asked. I will sponsor (men) when I'm asked. I will devote time to the men I sponsor so as to give back what was/is freely given to me. I will practice the 12 steps of AA on a daily basis. I will thank God every chance I get for allowing me the opportunity to attempt to aligne my will with His so that I don't have to depend on myself and myself alone to make good and right decisions.
Thanks Don for helping me to see your point.
PS....I'm sorry if I put you on the defensive by stating that you were muddying the water.
PSS....But I still believe that's what's happening, however you're more than welcome to continue to state your opinion.

Peter

Just for the record.

This is not an AA recovery forum.This is an open forum to any discussions related to alcoholism and recovery.

Members who choose to participate are free to discuss there own particular method of recovery provided they refrain from proselythizing and can share their own experiences in a non abusive manner.

Don S

Hi, Music,
That's a great description of how AA has worked for you. It is a specific description of actions you take, and a forthright declaration of your beliefs. I know there's an element of sarcasm there, but you really have illustrated my point. Those are the things YOU do that make your sobriety successful.

I'd hate to think that one who doesn't believe in God is incapable of sobriety, and that is implicit in your previous post. Others are likely to chime in that it doesn't have to be God in a religious sense--that a Higher Power can be anything. Still, you are telling those who come here that they can't find the power to do those things within themselves.

I find that a very discouraging thing to say to someone who is contemplating sobriety. I don't believe it to be true, and it was not my own experience. Reinforcing my own commitment to sobriety and finding ways to increase the likelihood of successful abstinence have been the keys for me. That is an experience I like to relate to newcomers, because I think it is a positive and helpful message.

I believe you are projecting your own history as a universal experience. It may have been your experience, but that does not mean it will be true of others. Many, many people quit drinking on their own, without any recovery program whatsoever. Others find a secular approach more to their liking; after all, there are millions of people in this country who have no religious beliefs whatsoever.

The notion that "you can do it on your own" really seems to touch a nerve here. My focus is on what a person can do for him or herself NOW--regardless of meetings or programs. This has elicited some hostile responses; my favorite so far was being told that I needed to "get my self-righteous stick out of my ass."

My posts are not provocative or argumentative, but there sure are some true believers on this board who don't like to see anything other than AA doctrine. Your belief that this was an AA forum is a good case in point, and I appreciate Peter clarifying that.

Similarly, comments by others about how folks are doomed to failure ("your only choices are jail, insanity, or death" is an example), or how other approaches are sure to fail (because they've tried them all, and those didn't work for them)--what is helpful about these types of statements? Someone comes here looking for advice and they get all these dire warnings? Tell us what DID work for you.

There's a very negative undercurrent here that utterly baffles me, and I can't be the only one who's noticed this. Folks who have been sober for years should be celebrating, not muttering grim imprecations!

You continue:
"PS....I'm sorry if I put you on the defensive by stating that you were muddying the water.
PSS....But I still believe that's what's happening...."

You're kind of saying "I'm sorry it bothers you to be wrong." So, how am I muddying the water, Music? Was there only one correct answer to the original question ("when does drinking become a problem?"), and only one correct way to deal with that problem?

Muddy waters are rich in sediment, and sediment helps things grow when deposited in the right places....

Ok, I'll quit with the metaphors again.
Don S

phoenix

I agree with what Peter and Don are saying.We should be able to share what works for us,without tearing down what works for others.AA doesn't claim to have a monopoly on recovery.It's worked very well for me,but it certainly isn't the only way to get sober.And when someone comes here looking for help they should be able to find it without encountering a lot of bickering over methods.Lets stick to sharing our own experiences

phoenix

The Jay Walker

disillusioned


my drinking became a problem almost emediately, I drank to feel good, before I drank I was allways feeling nervous and insecure, when I drank it changed my personality, and life was great.

so I drank daily. because I wanted to feel good everyday.

by the time I was old enough to drink I had 4 drunk drivings, and several other, charges.
bit I continued to drink another 17 years,

for me the question was not so much, when did my drinking become a problem, but more like when was I willing to do something about it.

The Jay Walker

Don S.

Hey whatever works for you is great, I think the difference of opinions comes about, when some of us who have tried and failed repeatedly by going it on our own, and have finally found a way that really works, and want to share it, so we come to an
" Alcoholism forum"
then along comes someone who does not say, " I was not an alcoholic" but states there is no such thing as an alcoholic, thats where we differ.

honestly , if there is no such thing as alcoholism, it maks me question your motives for coming here, are the sMart forums down again?

I go to a lot of meetings , and I sit with people who have tried sMart, R.R. and the others and have now finally found sobriety through A.A.

if sMart works for you, then great, I hope it works better for you than it has for countless others that I see in A.A. meetings, who wasted so much of there time trying to stay sober using the sMart program.

Point is

if your not alcoholic, I would have no way of explaining the obsession to you anymore than I could explain it to all the couselors and such that I saw for years.

trust me, the obsession is real, and not just a nasty habit,
if you havn't been there just be gratefull,
but please dont try to tell the rest of us were wrong, just because you havn't been there. YET

Don S

Hello, Jay,
You were doing fine, until you got to your last word. Here we go again.

Every recovery system is populated with folks who have tried other techniques, and some have been burned pretty badly. People lapse in all recovery programs. I can assure you that many, many people who come to SMART (and RR--just try their forum board!) have started with AA.

Unlike you, I don't feel they've "wasted their time." Some seem to feel the need to vent about other programs, which I hope they find cathartic somehow since it doesn't seem very productive otherwise. I have a kind of ecumenical attitude about recovery programs: where they converge, let's make use of it; where they diverge, explore the differences if that is productive.

Jay, I think you missed the point of my post. In response to the question "when does drinking become a problem?" I said I DON'T BELIEVE there is such a thing as alcoholism. I didn't say anyone who does believe in it is wrong, and I pointed out that there was another thread on this subject which discusses this pretty exhaustively.

There's a difference between empirical beliefs--facts--and philosophical beliefs, which aren't facts and aren't provable or unprovable. Belief or non-belief in the concept of alcoholism as a disease is in the latter category. I was giving my opinion; indeed, I started the whole post with "Well, here's my take on your drinking, for what it's worth."

I went on to say that I consider that at the far end of alcohol abuse it is "an unmanageable compulsive behavior." I don't think this trivializes it as a "nasty habit," and I HAVE been there. Indeed, the term "obsession" that you use is often applied to compulsive behaviors such as OCD's.

I haven't told anyone here they were wrong. I also haven't dismissed any recovery program with sarcasm, or predicted the future of anyone who tries another program. I haven't questioned anyone's motives for being here. Adherents of AA have done ALL of that repeatedly. Your "YET" is just another example.

What I have done is state my beliefs and describe what I have done to achieve sobriety. Sometimes I've made suggestions to those who seek advice, based on my own experiences. Please, folks, it would be best if you would do the same.

Don S

Music

Don,
There are a couple places in the AA Big Book which come to mind for me. One is in the third chapter. The Book suggests that if I don't think I'm alcoholic to try not drinking for a year. If I am alcoholic there's not much chance of success. The other is at the end of the same chapter where the Book says that at some point in time, no human power will be able to supply the needed defense against that first drink. That power must come from a Higher Power.
I am not my higher power and when I thought about not drinking for a year, I knew I was defeated. Self evident truth ya know!
So, again I say, you do it your way and I'll do it my way. Getting into a discussion about differing ideas about how to get sober and stay sober sometimes is like pissing up a rope. I'm tired of spending more time on this topic than it deserves. I'll let alcohol do my talking for me. There will be people who will try your way; some my succeed and some not....oh well, no skin off my nose. Same with people who try AA. John Barleycorn is the best convincer I have going for me. He works where many other things fail.
I don't know if you're alcoholic or not, it's not my call. However, when I go to AA meetings I give my testimony about how AA has worked for me. This helps me first and hopfully others also. I don't go to RR sites and beat my drum....pissing contest. Apparently you find it helpful to come here and beat your drum. Keep coming back Don. Like has been said so often, some people show me what to do and others, what not to do.
Have a great Sunday.

phoenix

People...this needs to stop.As was stated by the Forum Moderator,this is the Alcoholism forum.It's open for all to discuss what works for them.There is an AA forum for people who only want to participate in AA related discussion.Don S.has tried to respectfully relate what works for him,without belittling anyone elses program.If you don't want to read it,that's your choice.But he is free to post his experience,just like anyone else.

phoenix

Digits101010

When I was going through a tough time in early EARLY sobriety, I too, bought the Rational Recovery book, claimed AA as a cult and decided to quit attending meetings. I went through the Crash Recovery procedure on their website and proclaimed myself as recovered. THEN bought the book.

Digits was one confused digit. My sponsor then shared with me she went through the exact same thing...off to prove AA as a cult in some debate class she was taking. Long story short, we tried some controlled meetings [I'd gone to a severe extreme - as I later found out alcoholics are famous for - and began attending EVERY single meeting...sometimes 4 a day...I could get to.] and I came into balance again.

I think my awakening moment was when I took to heart the AA preamble (...) "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." [It doesn't say, "just as long as they are working the 12 steps of AA" or "as long as they are attending AA meetings."] Just because an oldtimer said "Uh oh" when I told him I bought the book [made me MAD] doesn't mean AA would say *Uh oh* and as a matter of fact, that would be an outside issue, of which AA has no opinion on.

So this guy was speaking purely from his own rigid criterion....or his ego - which is my guess. He still gets it confused and thinks RR is a moderation program.

In short, I didn't read the RR book, but maybe I will one day. AA is working out for me and that's all I need to know. I spoke with another AA last night and he, too, bought the book early in his sobriety. I aksed him, "Did it confuse you?" He said he read it and it "temporarily got him off track" and we both, then, admitted were were looking for the *easier, softer way.*

AA is NOT a cult...although some people can certainly get in there and become hard-nosed & rigid to the point that if one were to hang around them you might think it were. But, for me, if RR or SMART or AA or gargling peanut butter keeps a drunk, like I was, sober...? Then do it.

I find that when I start caring/criticizing how YOU are keeping yourself sober that my ego is in control and I must think I know what's best for you. And that's in opposition to the program I choose to work today that tells me I am an egomaniac and I need to get in check with my Higher Power...and that it was my BEST thinking that got me in the situations I ended up in.

So to everyone participating in this particular thread, if you're sober when you read this you're doing *something* okay.

And that is just this alcoholics experience.

Sober Today,
Digits

Chy

I must agree with Digits and Phoenix. I am not familer with the other methods of recovery. I knew I was desperate and found AA. So far that is what is working for me. However, if for some reason I fail which I pray I don't, I would be open to other options. We MUST do what works for us to keep us sober each day and I feel anyone is free to express what works for them.

...... now garggeling peanut butter I'd have to think on that one Digits

I wish everyone well, happy and secure in their own recovery process.

Don S

Hi, Music,
I like the suggestion to "just try not drinking for a year." Or a month, a week, or a day. Until I made a commitment to sobriety, there was little chance of success at any of those. That might be a good answer to the original question on this thread. If the idea of quitting for ANY length of time makes you anxious--then perhaps your drinking is a problem regardless of what label you choose.

"...the Book says that at some point in time, no human power will be able to supply the needed defense against that first drink. That power must come from a Higher Power." I vigorously disagree with this statement. If that is in the big Book, then I'm afraid, again, that only folks who believe in a higher power (read: god) will be able to achieve sobriety through AA. And there are millions of people out there who have proven that statement wrong.

Please don't confuse SMART with RR. They're not the same. I'm not beating my drum, this isn't a pissing contest...and this isn't an AA site. I wouldn't go to an AA meeting and start discussing other approaches! I answered the question, based on my perspective.

One thing I keep in mind is that folks who come to a forum such as this are looking for different viewpoints. When you're on the edge of commitment, it can be useful to see the different ways people have achieved sobriety.

If your belief system conflicts with the basic tenets of a particular recovery system, it is unlikely to be successful for you. A quick read of the Steps told me that AA wasn't for me, and your quote from the Book above is just another example. But I don't think that condemns me to a life of inebriation if there are alternatives that are more in keeping with my beliefs.

I'm sure there are folks who are non-religious who have quit drinking using AA, but I don't know how they get past the obviously religious basis of the program. It would be very interesting if one of them would post here.

"Getting into a discussion about differing ideas about how to get sober and stay sober sometimes is like pissing up a rope." Well, I kind of thought that was the point of an open forum board (not the pissing part!).

Don S

Ninerfan

To Don S....You should stick to what you personally know and keep your uneducated opinions re: AA to yourself. I'm going to repeat for the umpteenth time what has already been said here and on other threads. AA is not a religion. I will not discuss the matter. You are intitled to believe it is a religion as does RR and obviously Smart. That does not make it so. If I have understood hyour posts here and elsewhere, you have never attended AA or read our book. So how can you intelligently express an opinion when you dont know what you are talking about? My guess is that you have some kind of agenda going on, sort of like RR, but not as shrill or irrational. If this is wrong then I apologize up front, but please stick to what you know cause your opinions about AA are sometimes offensive. And I know you dont mean to offend.

I don't know if this woman is still interested after reading all our BS but a rule of thumb is that if you think you have a problem with alcohol, then you probably do. And it wont hurt to go to a few meetings and go to school on yourself. It could help to rread the Big Book if meetings aren't to your liking. Talk to a few AA's if you know any. Go to the SMART site if you're so inclined. Try to stay sober while you are making up YOUR mind. If you want to drink, that is your business. If you want to stop, we can help.

DallasHawkins

Hello,

I must agree with Don S. I originally tried AA when I decided that I wanted to stop drinking because I didn't know of alternative methods. I went through rehab and they took us to AA meetings and never mentioned other methods. Of course I take full responsibility for not doing the research. I was able to abstain for 90 days as the longest period. I'm not a person of beliefs,or faith so obviously AA wasn't going to work for me unless I had a
radical transformation of some type, which did not happen.

I happened across RR and it works perfectly for me. I don't have to believe in anything that I'm aware of. I don't consider myself to have a disease that compels me to drink. Thoughts or desires about drinking are easily dimissed. There is no "white knuckling" that makes my life uncomfortable. I don't dabble in spiritual realms or pray to some entity to get me out of some mess that I've gotten myself into. I can look at my past drinking as something that was fun to start with that eventually turned into a nightmare. Now I'm a content and happy person who no longer drinks.

I come to this website because I find it interesting. Occasionally I'll see a post from someone who's having a problem but isn't interested in AA, so I might say something to them about RR or SMART. I don't think anyone can have too much information when they're trying to abstain. Who knows, perhaps my drinking career could have been shortened had I been aware of other devices besides AA. I found a method that worked for me and if it can benefit anyone else, I'm happy to share my experience.

Phoenix,
I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter to you but I'll say this anyway. Your defense of open dialogue on this thread has really impressed me.

Good luck everyone,
Stan

DallasHawkins

Disillusioned,

I had to decide for myself when my drinking became a problem. If someone else suggested I had a problem, I told them to mind their own business. It sounds simple but seems to make sense that I had to want to quit more than I wanted to keep drinking.

I personally like Webster's definition of alcoholism-continued excessive or compulsive use of alcoholic drinks. Only you can decide if you're an alcoholic.

I would ask, Do you want to quit drinking? If you do, jump in and try it. Several methods have been alluded to in this thread, or just quit by yourself. Quitting ultimately rests on your shoulders anyway. If you want to continue drinking, you have that right. And I sincerely hope you have better results than I had.

Good Luck
Stan

Digits101010

:devil2: I have been on a MAD peanut butter kick and it was the first thing I could think of.

One more thing I'd like to say... Pg 103 Big Book, "Working with Others"...

"Some day we hope that Alcoholics Anonymous will help the public to a better realization of the gravity of the alcoholic problem, but we shall be of little use if our attitude is one of bitterness or hostility. Drinkers will not stand for it.

After all, our problems were of our own making. Bottles were only a symbol. Besides, we have stopped fighting anybody or anything. We have to!"

This is what I keep myself in check with when people ride my nerves. Like last night at the meeting after the meeting, this guy comes up and starts off with scathing sarcasm cloaked with humor "Keep Coming Back" statements and "Some are sicker than others" and etc... REALLY riding this KID who has 90 days...he's a KID...he's supposed to be annoying and talkative. But this MAN thought he could browbeat him or something, or maybe he was showing off cause I've noticed he has NO problem in the ego department.

I kept replaying "We have quit fighting anybody. We have quit fighting anybody." He even made a few remarks to me he disguised as cutesy. I REALLY hate that! Every fiber in my body was SCREAMING for recompense in the form of an "Eff you three different ways pal!"

I guess I'm more mad about this than I thought...
Need to get on that.
Anyhow I've tried to quit fighting,
Digits

phoenix

Actually,your opinion matters to me as much as anyone elses.I respect anyone who comes here with an interest in meaningful discussion.I've read a lot of your posts and you've given some really good input.I was interested enough to look into RR and SMART.When you get past some of the anti AA talk,there is some sensible stuff in there.In some ways,we are not that different.

I found AA to be the best way for me to stop drinking,but I don't think it's the only way that anyone can stop.I don't see information about other methods as being harmful or out of place here.I believe that anything that might help someone stop drinking is worth hearing about,and I appreciate you and Don S for sharing your experience.Thanks for being here.

phoenix

Don S

Hi, niner,
I have been misquoted. I said that AA has a "religious basis," not that it is a religion. It's pretty clear to me that folks without religious beliefs will have a hard time making it work for them because of the reliance on a higher power. That is very different from calling it a religion, and I DO know that folks at other recovery forums DO call it that, or a cult, or whatever. I do not believe that AA is a religion.

I have read various web sites about AA, and followed much of the discussion on the AA forum at this web site. I don't think it would be particularly appropriate for me to attend an AA meeting, since the people who go to them are there for recovery--not debate.

Nope, haven't read the Big Book--just the excerpts that are posted here and at the other forum on this web site (I haven't read Jack Trimpey's book, either, but I was able to formulate an initial impression of RR without much difficulty). But the 12 Steps are pretty self-explanatory. What about my posts has seemed uneducated? More important to me, what has been offensive? It is clear that some here have reacted that way, and the replies have been pretty shrill. So help me understand what I have said that could possibly be offensive.

Why, oh why, do people keep saying I have some kind of agenda?! Would any one of you who has said that please tell me what YOUR agenda is in coming here, and why this keeps coming up--or whether it is even necessarily a bad thing to have an agenda? I'm not here to convert anyone, if that's what you mean.

So, I get to add to my ever-growing collection (sigh) that I am "uneducated" and should "keep my opinions of AA to myself." My focus has been on sharing my opinions and experiences with those who ask. Some have been quick to argue with those opinions and experiences, and a few have been derogatory or sarcastic. I reply to such posts where it will contribute to a civil discourse, and hopefully the conversation will stay at least marginally on the thread's topic. You are more than welcome to send me private messages if there are side issues you'd like to discuss. I have a pretty thick skin.

I notice that Dallas found that Webster's defines alcoholism as excessive or compulsive use of alcohol. So maybe we're all saying the same thing, just in different ways. I believe that labels can be counterproductive to achieving sobriety. My mother's smoking habit isn't "nicotinism," although it certainly nearly killed her with throat cancer. She's free of cancer, and she no longer smokes, so the behavior is gone--so is she still an addict? I've never understood why one behavior is classed as a disease, but the other (with so many characteristics in common--causal agent, compulsive behavior, almost sure to kill you unless you quit) isn't.

So if someone asked the question, "when does SMOKING become a problem?"--how would any of your answers change? Maybe our answers on this will help enlighten the original post-er and allow us to discuss the issue with a little more detachment.
Don S

MootPoint

I just have to jump in here. Anyone who knows me, knows me from the AA side of things.

Personally, I don't have any problem with Don.

To me, his discussions on SMART are couirteous to other methods (like AA).

Like Digits said, if gargling peanut butter worked (That's not in SMART, is it, Don??? ) I'd say 'more power to ya'.

PianoGirl

Can't we all just get along??? LOL

PianoGirl