Wade72

Boleo,

I would actually like to argue with that statement....but probably not the place.

I however do agree that that the causes need to be addressed, it is always the most difficult part of any substance misuse treatment.

Joao

Well, I don't know of any other definition.

That's exactly the idea.

Oh, I wish! I broke a disk on my spine on a mountain bike accident so now I can no longer do any heavy-duty mountain biking, and Jiu-Jitsu is definitely a no-no. But I did a lot of road cycling trips up until a few years ago, and want to get back into that.

Yup, I'm a guy, but I'm not sure if a tea toddling knitting club is for me. Besides, I prefer athletic women. Like cyclists for example!

Cheers.

Joao

IF you're a religious person.

Boleo

Abstinence is the leading cause of relapse. Sounds kind of comical when heard for the first time. Almost like a contradiction of terms. In theory, abstinence is supposed to PREVENT relapse. How can it be RESPONSIBLE for relapse?

It turns out that the recovery process cannot be done in one simple phase. Not unlike getting a car or truck rolling along it takes more than one gear. Abstinence is comparable to first gear in a motor vehicle. It is the best and sometimes the only way to get a massive vehicle in motion but not unlike a car going down the highway, being stuck in first gear is destructive. At some point the cars engine will blow apart from too much stress.

Rehab programs seldom talk about this matter because it is simply not their job to talk about long-term recovery strategies. Their goal is typically one of getting the subject to reach some short-term goal that can be achieved and measured within a short time frame,
Typically 30 to 90 days.

So what is the equivalent of second gear in the recovery process? Principles to live by. Specifically rules to live by that can be used to day in and day out without overloading ones psychic engine. Some of these principles can be summed up in simple to grasp slogans like; one-day-at-a-time, easy-does-it and first-things-first. These are more or less psychological tricks and tips that can be used in times of stress.

There is more to recovery however than just psychology. There is an even higher set of principles that can be viewed as the equivalent of over-drive in an automobile. That is spiritual instead of psychological principles.

Spiritual principles are harder to learn than psychological principles because some of them are hard to grasp at first. In fact, many of them are closer to paradox’s than logic. That is why it is best to leave them for last in the learning process.

Joao

Exactly. Just as I said, AA 12 steps works if you're a religious person. Myself? I don't believe in God, I don't believe in spirits, I don't believe in a higher power. I believe that I'm an alcoholic, and I allowed that to control my life. And now it is up to me to get myself straightened out. And if I fail, it is entirely my fault.

--
No time for drug addiction
No time for smoke and booze
Too strong for a shortened life span
I've got no time to lose
~~Henry Rollins

Wade72

“The 12 steps of AA is designed to treat core issues such as fear, guilt and shame.”

Actually that is the point I could argue. Again though, not the appropriate place. So not going to get into it.

“Abstinence is the leading cause of relapse” Circular argument, since there is no possibility of relapse without a period of abstinence, however long or short that period may be.


Joao,

There are alternatives, just harder to find, 10 years almost 11 for me and not a single AA or NA meeting in that time. I am not a "recovering drug addict," I “recovered” a long time ago and I will not define my life by one period in it. I know this goes against AA principles and beliefs but it worked for me and works for many others I see at the center I work for. However believe it or not I have referred people to AA as well, that I didn’t feel out program was appropriate for. Also a Monastery here in Thailand that works great for some people.

I will counsel the individual to go to whatever program I feel is most appropriate for them. I of course believe in CBT programs since that was most effective for me, but I am open minded enough to realize that it is not the best solution for everyone. CBT is completely secular, so for instance it probably is not the best program for a born again Christian. Also since it is “Cognitive”-Behavioral Therapy, people of low intelligence or cognitive skills would be wasting their time and money. In our case the therapists at the center only speak English so it would be against best practice to accept anyone without very good English skills, etc.,etc.,etc.

Anyways the whole point is find the best program for YOU if you find it isn’t working or fulfilling your needs find a different one.

My main argument against AA or NA as an only option for people is not the “program” if it fits the individual great, my issue is some of the people in the program. Now I will not say all therapists are good but what they have is at least 5 years of full time training and exposure to many different programs. Also the vast majority of psychologist that specialize in this area also have their own personal experience with addiction. SO you tend to get personal experience and proper training. Also they are bound by professional standards and ethics and accountable for the counsel they give people.

One final note, I am on my way to Singapore later this afternoon and very excited about it, I will be meeting Dr. Munidasa Winslow, one of the leading addiction specialists in Asia as well as some of his staff. I intend to pick his brain for as long as possible to get any new research, techniques, and all around just learn as much as I can from the man. If anyone is interested I will update on Wednesday when I get back.

CantWait11

yah so like
day 1 through 4 is the danger zone (all of this i learned through this forum) but you sound like your detox wasnt harsh. i didnt drink as much or as little as other people on here but my withdrawl sucked. (dry heaving, anxiety, and just no hope and feeling YUCK)

i went to the doctor on like day 3 or 4 and they (like many said on here) were mad for not coming sooner. (I didnt have insurance so i had to borrow money to visit my old doctor)
but it was worth it
even tho i had already gone through 3 days, the piece of mind was wonderful, and he gave me LIBRIUM for the anxiety to help sleep (i only had to use it for 2 days, i still have a full bottle) and something for nausea (that helped so much.. and still does if i eat too much or somethign)

also he gave me a referall to an outpatient lab to check out my liver and stuff and see if any serious damage is done. I cant do it now until i get insurance but when i do I will.

he said it helped that i was taking a B complex and i was taking some vitamines that helped blood pressure, cause thats one of the risky parts of detox. my blood pressure was still high but not dangerous.

-bj

ps. Delerium Tremends (the beer) has the Pink Elephant logo because thats like the symbol of an alcoholics hallucination. Remember the old cartoon with the pink elephant?
THats how they named that beer, because that particular belgium ale has a very high alc content. fun fact

CarolD

Joao ....
Did you check out the link I gave you
on various recovery programs?

I'm interested in which you plan to use

Let's both enjoy another day of sobriety...

Joao

I was thinking Women for Sobriety, so I can meet some chicks!

Seriously now, I'm looking at Moderation Management. Even their slogan sounds like what I am looking for. (Self Management, Balance, Moderation, Personal Responsibility)

At first, I'll abstain completely from any alcohol. To detox, to prove to myself I can do it, to train myself on fighting the urges, and to get used to the idea of not drinking. But eventually at some point in a few years I may have an occasional drink. For example, my sister is a great chef who has sold many of her recipes to top restaurants. And whenever she cooks something, which is pretty much every day, she has just the right wine to go along with it. So after I'm fully trained, I may have a glass wine to compliment one of her meals. That's what I like about the premise of MM. It works not just for people interested in moderation, but also for those trying to abstain from it. I also like the idea of "personal responsibility". It is my own responsibility and I am the one who must fix it.

Funny enough, my sister invited me to go spend this weekend at her place (she lives by the beach, about one hour train ride from me). I told her I couldn't since I have to clean up my place. I do have to clean it up, but that's not why I didn't go. I'm just not quite ready yet to be in a room full of great food and great wines with a bunch of people drinking it. Not yet. I'll wait a couple more weeks before I go visit her.

Ps: Made it to day 7. Yay me!

CarolD

Yes...you made a wise decision on not visiting so soon.
Day 7 is super!

If yoou noticed....MM asks that one be sober for 30
days before beginning their program. So again
you are making a good choice.

Hope you can work this out for your benefit

ghidrah

Yeah,..but if you go the 30 days and immediately drink on the 31st,..you're probably an alcoholic. I am sorry, but, to me, MM is nothing more than a bunch of alcoholics who really want to keep drinking. If drinking has caused enough problems in your life that you are seeking answers,...than its probably impacted your loved ones lives as well. What do you think your loved ones will think if you go 30 days and then start drinking again? They wont see someone who has gotten their drinking under control,...they will see an alcoholic who has started drinking again. Just my opinion, however.

CarolD

Hmm...
I've never tried MM...I was AA recovered
before it was founded.
So your questions to me are
impossible for me to answer.

Joao and I was exploring various programs
We were discussing his choice.

BTW...here at SR we do not bash
anyones path of recovery.
I do hope you will find peace
using whatever you choose.

Hope you find something useful
at SR ghidrah...

Joao

ghidrah? Read my message again. Specially the part about how long I intend to be sober.

And no, my drinking hasn't let any loved ones down. I'm single, and other than my sister who lives within an hour from me, the rest of my family lives 1/2 way around the world. And I don't have too much contact with her either. The only life I messed up is mine.

I like MM because it puts the focus on personal responsibility. It is up to me to control myself, not some higher power, not my sponsor, not my group. I made this mess, so it is up to me to clean it up. If other systems are what help you, then I say go for them. As I said several messages back, I believe AA really works for people of faith. And it is great that it has helped so many people. But it is not for me. Yet something that focus on self management and personal responsibility are exactly the kind of help I was looking for.

And no, there is nothing wrong with having a drink once in a blue moon, as long as you are aware of what it can do to you are fully aware of what can happen if you lose control. That's what non-alcoholics do. For us it is a lot harder. Way harder. But I firmly believe it is doable. I'm stronger than the little baztard in my ear. Yet I don't intend on facing that at least for a few more years.

Tazman53

Joao I hope MM is a success for you, when I was 23 I quit for 1 1/2 years and figured "Well I can handle it now in moderation" Well it only took me 27 more years to find my way back to sobriety after I started again, it was just like I had never quit.

I am not saying that is what will happen to you, I hope it doesn't for your sake, I am just sharing my experince with you in case you see your drinking going back to where it was before you won't do like I did and deny that the problem is back and even bigger then before.

BTW do a search via Google on the founder of MM.

Joao

Thanks Taz.

Like I said, my plan is to join MM, but to abstain completely from drinking at least for the first few years.

Interesting read on the founder. In the group's defense one could say that at one point she realized MM wasn't for her, and she had left the group and was in AA, SMART, and Women For Sobriety for some months when she had her crash. I don't think one can blame MM, just as one cannot blame AA, SMART, or WFS for her relapse. The woman obviously had some very serious issues that went beyond those of the typical alcoholic, and for whatever the reasons those issues were not properly addressed.

/day 12

nandm

Actually it sounds like her issues were typical for the alcoholic. The mental condition that throws willpower out the door at the first drink.

I wish you the best with MM. I have to honestly say that IMHO moderation is not an option for the real alcoholic. A thought that comes to my head everytime I hear someone claim to be an alcoholic and then on the other hand say they are going to moderate is: A normal drinker doesn't have to think about moderation....they can take it or leave it.....they moderate without even thinking about it. A sign of an alcoholic is the inability to control their drinking once they start........so moderation for the real alcoholic is not an option. Of course this is just my opinion based on my experience.

I do wish you the best with your choice to utilize the MM program and hope that you find what you are seeking in it.

BackToSquareOne

I tried moderation management and it did not work for me. I'd give it a shot though, you may be one of the lucky ones that can pull it off.

Joao

Being an active participant in 3 separate abstinence groups, and drinking vodka right out of the bottle while driving on the wrong side of the road, and under anti-depressants? I would recon that's a wee more extreme than most.

CarolD

Please let's discuss our own expereinces
and not another persons tragedy.

Thanks...