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Old 09-07-2008, 09:47 AM
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Program not excepted

Pretty upset that Smart recovery is not excepted by the hearing and appeals board. The addictions lady that did my evaluation said it was fine to use SMART recovery instead of AA. I have spent almost a year prepairing for this hearing to get my license back. And the hearing officer laughed at me because I told her about SR.

She did not make a decision because my drug test I took months ago never made it there. So, I need to hunt it down.

Felt like I am being forced to attend AA. I am for any program that works for people. What I have done this time for recovery has worked for me because in dec it will be 8 years.

I just needed to vent.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:50 AM
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sorry to hear about that! It's sad that things are that way. perhaps the more people who they hear from like you the more likely they are to open up to new ideas....doesn't help your personal situation much...but I really admire that you have develeoped a program that works for you and are living by it!
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:18 AM
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Sorry to hear about this!

I will be trying to get my nursing license reinstated as soon as I'm off probation, and from what research I've done, most states require active AA/NA participation. I understand AA/NA helps a lot of people, but I think it's sad that they don't recognize the people that find they're own path to recovery.

I hope this gets straigthened out soon and you get your license back!

Hugs and prayers!

Amy
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:19 AM
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The wheels of justice move slowly...almost imperceptively. Do you know how long it took them to accept AA as a valid form of recovery? Now there are new and (god forbid! ) secular ways of recovery. I can't imagine how long it will take for the justice system to accept that there can be a way to recover without god.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:33 AM
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I called the man who starts smart recovery groups. He has faught to get it approved for the court system. They do except it in the county of the meetings I attend. It was excepted in the county I had my appeal 5 years ago but the hearing officer said it was dropped.

He will be making calls and talking with his lawyers. Not sure if I want to be in the middle of this fight. But I do believe in different recovery programs because this type worked for me. I have a meeting tonight to see what can be done.

I have nothing against a HP but I see nothing wrong with self help?
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:37 AM
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One of many articles:

September 12, 2007


Today the American Humanist Association notified its members, local chapters, and allies nationwide that there is now a well-established legal precedent that Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous are "pervasively religious" recovery programs. Moreover, government officials shouldn't specifically promote religious programs to the public, may not coerce incarcerated individuals into them, and may not sentence people to attend their meetings without offering a secular alternative. This action by the American Humanist Association comes in the wake of the September 7 decision by the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco that the government can't force parolees to attend such programs as a condition of staying out of prison.

"Our members and allies will now be more vigilant than ever in seeing to it that government agencies remain scrupulously neutral in their advocacy of substance-abuse treatment programs," said Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association. "Though public officials may prescribe self-help group attendance in general, they shouldn't advocate for or discourage any particular program, especially if that program is religious."

Joseph Gerstein, M.D., past president of the SMART Recovery Self-Help Network, added: "The most up-to-date scientific literature on substance abuse treatment has made it clear that matching a client to the most appropriate resources for that individual produces the best outcome. This means that one size doesn't fit all. It is refreshing to see the courts recognize that constitutional requirements coincide with established ethical and clinical imperatives."

SMART Recovery is a worldwide, science-based, secular substance abuse recovery program that, from its inception, has been endorsed by the American Humanist Association and offered through many of its local chapters. There are other such programs, including Secular Organizations for Sobriety, LifeRing and Women for Sobriety, all of which contribute to greater public choice among mutual-help recovery group options. "While some people may benefit from a religious program," added Dr. Gerstein, "that doesn't justify giving Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous a treatment monopoly. Millions of people would benefit most from a secular, science-based program. And SMART Recovery was developed to help break that monopoly by offering a secular or religiously-neutral alternative that would work for humanists, for atheists, and for religious people who aren't comfortable with a blatantly faith-based approach."

The case law on efforts to require parolee attendance at religion-based treatment meetings has grown clearer over the years. Since 1996 courts have increasingly recognized that such a requirement violates the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This precedent is now so well established that nine state and federal courts have ruled that a parolee has the right to be assigned to a secular program. Moreover, the latest decision by the Ninth Circuit makes it clear that a parole officer can be personally sued for damages if he or she acts otherwise.

"Though Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous are well-established programs that have benefited many, their demand that participants acknowledge a 'higher power' is religious," added American Humanist Association President Mel Lipman. "Federal courts for the Second, Seventh, and Ninth circuits, as well as numerous lower courts, have found that mandating the program constitutes a violation of the First Amendment. We intend to make sure that these established court precedents are remembered and followed."

The latest case involved Ricky Inouye, who was paroled in November 2000. His parole officer, Mark Nanomori, ordered him to participate in a program that included Narcotics Anonymous meetings, despite the fact that Inouye, a Buddhist, had objected to treatments with any religious content. When Inouye refused to participate in the Narcotics Annonymous meetings he was sent back to prison in November 2001 for violating his parole. Inouye died while his suit was pending, and his son has continued the litigation on his behalf.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:11 AM
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Thank's

Yes, The head person for Smart here explained this to me on the phone right after the hearing. I was told that I needed to attend AA instead of Smart. Told him I can get a transcript the the hearing. He wants to take it to court.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:21 AM
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The people we deal with in the legal system including Therapists, Counselors, Alcohol Evaluators, Probation/Parole Officers, and the entire assembly of Madd Mothers are an astonishing collection of "Prohibitionists"
They will settle for nothing except Absolute Abstinance.
Most of them are also as Ill Informed as one can get when it comes to Alcoholism. All they know is what they've read in a book.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by zendust View Post
I can't imagine how long it will take for the justice system to accept that there can be a way to recover without god.
I doubt they are thinking about "God" in the equation of getting sober when they bring these rulings down. They just know that AA works, has been around for 73 years and is tried and true. It (AA) has a long history whereas these other programs do not and they probably don't know much or anything about them. These people are just in robot mode. Don't take it personal.

If those of you that are trying to reinstate a driver's license or nursing credential, since we alcoholics and drug addicts are such rule breakers to begin with and/or go against the grain, why not just go to the meetings of your choice and slip in 1 or 2 AA or NA meeting a week - for good measure. You want your license and/or credentials back, right?
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:26 AM
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Smart is a 4 point system. The very first one is...

Enhance and mantain motivation to abstain.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:02 PM
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The secular programs (LifeRing, SOS, SMART, WFS) are all abstinence based, so that shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:16 PM
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Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to attend AA and get your license back as opposed to trying to fight the system.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:23 PM
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Thanks for posting the article doorknob. I was shocked to see that your recovery program won't be accepted Comet1963. I thought they had decided (I was misinformed obviously) that it was unconsitutional to force people to attend to AA and NA.

You know what? If we don't fight for what we believe is right then who is going to? You'll probably have to attend AA but paving the road for others years down the line to have a recovery program that they can live with is worth the effort.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:38 PM
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Cool We cease fighting everything and everybody

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to attend AA and get your license back as opposed to trying to fight the system.
Here, here! (or is it....hear, hear??!)

I understand another poster saying that we ought to fight for what we believe in....and possibly change things for others down the road yet, what is the big deal in the big picture? I thought we are encouraged to stop fighting everything and everybody? Not to mean we're doormats, though.

I'm not a church person yet, if I had to go to Church to abide by some rules in order to get my license or nursing papers back, I would certainly just suck it up and go. Everything (as I see it), is for my highest good if I allow myself to see the bigger picture.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:49 PM
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This country was founded on the principal of freedom of religion, which also means freedom from religion.

Though I attend one AA meeting a week, I do view it as a religious organization. It did have it seeds in the Oxford group.

You can't deny it. It is in the 5th Chapter, "How It Works", where it is stated that salvation is found only one way..."and that one is God, may you find him now." You can't cut that any other way, AA is a theistic based organization.

Saying it is no big deal to be forced to attend is like saying you must practice Judaism, even though you are Catholic.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:58 PM
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I agree with you to the extent we all need to pick our battles wisely and I don't think anyone here is trying to fight "everyone and everything." I'm not going to fight over silly things that don't matter to me. However, in looking at the big picture: if you want something to change I wouldn't advise waiting for someone else to do it for you.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by zendust View Post
You can't deny it. It is in the 5th Chapter, "How It Works", where it is stated that salvation is found only one way..."and that one is God, may you find him now." You can't cut that any other way, AA is a theistic based organization.
You're absolutely right. I've often had my druthers with AA in this regard as it feels very religious to me (even though it's loudly denied) and it was very hard for me to get sober cause of all the God stuff - even though the book does say, "AA does not ask you to believe.....". For me though, I try to leave the word God out of it; although, I have seen too many miracles in my life happen that I know I didn't generate.

Originally Posted by zendust View Post
Saying it is no big deal to be forced to attend is like saying you must practice Judaism, even though you are Catholic.
True, true yet, if it meant me getting my license back, I would attend a Synogugue as opposed to a Catholic church. I would certainly do it cause it's just for a while. Looking at the bigger picture, I would just do the drill til I get my license back and then go on to do recovery the way I want to. That's all I'm saying. Not getting into a battle or debate over seculor or non-seculor recover. Would I like it? Probably not
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:22 PM
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I'd just go to the required meetings, nod my head and say what they want to hear. They're all just people doing there jobs and following the rules. I wouldn't be happy about it but I'd do it.

The phrase 'Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?' springs to mind.

But if you're a smart a** like me, you'll say, I want to be right and happy!
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bostonluv View Post
You know what? If we don't fight for what we believe is right then who is going to? You'll probably have to attend AA but paving the road for others years down the line to have a recovery program that they can live with is worth the effort.
IMO, Making a stand for whats right vs. settling for less is the correct thing to do. I would put up a fight if I was coerced into a program that did not respect my beliefs, that's for sure. Wishing you the best outcome Comet.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zencat View Post
I would put up a fight if I was coerced into a program that did not respect my beliefs, that's for sure.
There's been many times I've felt AA/NA meetings were more harmful that helpful for this very reason. I'd often go home in a way worse state than when I arrived. If I was forced to use only the 12-Step support forums here at SR, I doubt I'd stay sober.
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