Program not excepted
Actually, the program is excepted, but it's not accepted... sorry Comet! Go ahead and 
.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by zendust 
This country was founded on the principal of freedom of religion, which also means freedom from religion.
Though I attend one AA meeting a week, I do view it as a religious organization. It did have it seeds in the Oxford group.
You can't deny it. It is in the 5th Chapter, "How It Works", where it is stated that salvation is found only one way..."and that one is God, may you find him now." You can't cut that any other way, AA is a theistic based organization.
Saying it is no big deal to be forced to attend is like saying you must practice Judaism, even though you are Catholic.
Though I attend one AA meeting a week, I do view it as a religious organization. It did have it seeds in the Oxford group.
You can't deny it. It is in the 5th Chapter, "How It Works", where it is stated that salvation is found only one way..."and that one is God, may you find him now." You can't cut that any other way, AA is a theistic based organization.
Saying it is no big deal to be forced to attend is like saying you must practice Judaism, even though you are Catholic.
On the topic: Comet - it sounds like you did something that caused you to lose your license (I am not sure what type of license). The courts have told you what you need to do to get it back. If I wanted something bad enough - I would go to any lengths to get it. If getting my license back meant I had to sit in a room, for a defined period of time each day, week, month, year - I wouldn't much care what the topic being discussed in the room was.
The illustration of the catholic being forced to practice Judaism is not relevant. AA does not force anyone, to do anything, at any time. This is a problem with a judge and the legal system - not AA.
Though - the more posts I read, it seems like it actually the thread and replies have more to do with SMART being accepted as a legitimate alternative in the eyes of the legal community. The same legal system that grew from the Declaration of Independence - give it a read. Rather 'theistic', wouldn't you say?
I propose that AA is more secular than relgious being that the concept of spirituality and higher consciousness are not married solely to any religion but are practiced and arose indepedently across a continuum of cultures.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
In my opinion AA made a big mistake when it allowed individual meetings to form an alliance with the courts. Global Services claims it never officially endorsed this practice but it did remain silent when it started happening.
It violates tradition Ten—"Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues" to some degree and completely circumvents tradition Eleven—"Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion".
Now AA is paying a price for it in the form of outsiders thinking we are some kind of a Government agency. Not to mention that the courts have been sending all kinds of non-alcoholics to meetings for years. Some of even stuck around long enough to get BIG TOKENS and spew total nonsense at the podium when giving open-talks.
If every member was truly a Volunteer AA would have fewer new members coming in the door but more veteran members staying sober (judge a tree by it's fruit).
It violates tradition Ten—"Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues" to some degree and completely circumvents tradition Eleven—"Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion".
Now AA is paying a price for it in the form of outsiders thinking we are some kind of a Government agency. Not to mention that the courts have been sending all kinds of non-alcoholics to meetings for years. Some of even stuck around long enough to get BIG TOKENS and spew total nonsense at the podium when giving open-talks.
If every member was truly a Volunteer AA would have fewer new members coming in the door but more veteran members staying sober (judge a tree by it's fruit).
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
Can your doctor attest to your maintained soberiety?
If it's possible, make an appointment with your doctor. If you have had past appointments with him/her, he or she may be able to tell by appearance and then possibly through blood-work.
I don't know if your doctor is willing to or can legally state for the record that you are sober and have been sober.
I'm brainstorming.
Don't get discouraged. Discouragement can lead to frustration and resentment, and all that negativity together can form a FTW attitude that leads to bad times.
Chin up, the support is around you.
Tom
If it's possible, make an appointment with your doctor. If you have had past appointments with him/her, he or she may be able to tell by appearance and then possibly through blood-work.
I don't know if your doctor is willing to or can legally state for the record that you are sober and have been sober.
I'm brainstorming.
Don't get discouraged. Discouragement can lead to frustration and resentment, and all that negativity together can form a FTW attitude that leads to bad times.
Chin up, the support is around you.
Tom
I got nothin'
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: My house.
Posts: 4,890
Originally Posted by 1963comet
Pretty upset that Smart recovery is not excepted by the hearing and appeals board.
Originally Posted by 1963comet
Felt like I am being forced to attend AA. I am for any program that works for people. What I have done this time for recovery has worked for me because in dec it will be 8 years.
The case law on efforts to require parolee attendance at religion-based treatment meetings has grown clearer over the years. Since 1996 courts have increasingly recognized that such a requirement violates the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. --Taken from the post by doorknob.
This issue is a personal peeve of mine, so I would fight it. I do not have a problem with people freely associating with any group (for example, AA), but I do have a problem when the government tries to force someone into participating with a group that arguably has connotations of a religious nature. I believe that the government should stay out of the business of such organizations not only for the benefit of the unwilling participant, but also for the benefit of any private groups in question. I'm sorry you are going through this right now. Best of luck.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 700
Originally Posted by Boleo
In my opinion AA made a big mistake when it allowed individual meetings to form an alliance with the courts.
I would say do what you need to get your license back AND fight for your rights at the same time.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
I try to stay open and learn whatever I can from where ever I can about recovery as I need to nourish my sobriety. I've had good and bad experiences in AA/NA meetings. I try to ignore or let go of the bad and keep what helps.
Love.
Lenina
Love.
Lenina
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,381
Yes, my fault I lost my license. Two Dui's, one in 96 the other 97. Never caused any accidents.
Got an e-mail from the lady that done my evauation tonight. She is the one who approved Smart recovery for my drivers license. So, I thought it was fine to attend that instead of AA. All the other times I did attend AA.
She said my drug test would of been thrown out anyway because it was 90 days old. Said I can just do another one and see what happends with there decision.
Smart recovery leader said he will wait until there decision to see if AA is a requirment. If it is he will make some calls.
Got an e-mail from the lady that done my evauation tonight. She is the one who approved Smart recovery for my drivers license. So, I thought it was fine to attend that instead of AA. All the other times I did attend AA.
She said my drug test would of been thrown out anyway because it was 90 days old. Said I can just do another one and see what happends with there decision.
Smart recovery leader said he will wait until there decision to see if AA is a requirment. If it is he will make some calls.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
aa co operates with the courts,not affiliates with them,as with prisons and hospitals in a effort to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic who wants help.Any good thing will be misconstrued and abused,and aa has been both by people and institutions who use AA for things other than sobriety
Originally Posted by Boleo
In my opinion AA made a big mistake when it allowed individual meetings to form an alliance with the courts. Global Services claims it never officially endorsed this practice but it did remain silent when it started happening.
It violates tradition Ten—"Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues" to some degree and completely circumvents tradition Eleven—"Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion".
Now AA is paying a price for it in the form of outsiders thinking we are some kind of a Government agency. Not to mention that the courts have been sending all kinds of non-alcoholics to meetings for years. Some of even stuck around long enough to get BIG TOKENS and spew total nonsense at the podium when giving open-talks.
If every member was truly a Volunteer AA would have fewer new members coming in the door but more veteran members staying sober (judge a tree by it's fruit).
It violates tradition Ten—"Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues" to some degree and completely circumvents tradition Eleven—"Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion".
Now AA is paying a price for it in the form of outsiders thinking we are some kind of a Government agency. Not to mention that the courts have been sending all kinds of non-alcoholics to meetings for years. Some of even stuck around long enough to get BIG TOKENS and spew total nonsense at the podium when giving open-talks.
If every member was truly a Volunteer AA would have fewer new members coming in the door but more veteran members staying sober (judge a tree by it's fruit).
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
I just wanted to say that if it is a requirement to go to AA to get my nursing license back, I will go. I just have a problem with someone insinuating that my recovery isn't really recovery just because I don't go to AA.
My lawyer is a 20+ year sober alcoholic who I met when I went to AA. After talking with him, at length, about my program of recovery he quote the Big Book..something to the effect that "AA is but one form of recovery".
FWIW, I know of several nurses who just get friends to sign AA papers, saying they went to a meeting. I won't do that, because dishonesty is not part of MY program of recovery.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
My lawyer is a 20+ year sober alcoholic who I met when I went to AA. After talking with him, at length, about my program of recovery he quote the Big Book..something to the effect that "AA is but one form of recovery".
FWIW, I know of several nurses who just get friends to sign AA papers, saying they went to a meeting. I won't do that, because dishonesty is not part of MY program of recovery.
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,381
This is sad to say, but so many people resent AA because of being court ordered. I have sat in so many meetings that people could not wait to get out of there. Same is true with the program I attend now. Most of the people are court ordered. I have not seen one person there after getting off probation.
But I do think when a person is ready to quit they will go back to a program on there own.
But I do think when a person is ready to quit they will go back to a program on there own.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 565
I'm of the opinion that you cannot understand an alcoholic until you've been one. If that means AA or SMART, whatever. Recovery is recovery and I wish the legal system would accept just a breathalyzer or something. It doesn't matter where you find it, it matters that you do it.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
comet recovery is recovery in my book. AA, SMART, Lifering, WFS, etc., I feel like you, that the court saying that only certain programs have there blessing is a crock of it.
Here is what I would suggest, be willing to lose this one battle in order to get your license back, then start to fight the battles needed to win the war. That is just what I would do.
One of my sponsee's has to go to "Therapy" for 4 months, not because he needs it, but because the court has odered him to do it!
He was sober over a month before he even started the therapy, he will have 4 months sober this week.
If he had of refused therapy he would not have his license back.
He goes to therapy to keep his license, he goes to AA to stay sober.
Some times we have to simply do as we are told to get what we want.
I highly encourage you to fight this to the hilt, but you will need to make a decision.
Are you willing to go without a license until you win (which if you have the money & the backing I am sure you will) or just show up at the minimum of AA meetings they require, get your license back and then fight the battle.
Here is what I would suggest, be willing to lose this one battle in order to get your license back, then start to fight the battles needed to win the war. That is just what I would do.
One of my sponsee's has to go to "Therapy" for 4 months, not because he needs it, but because the court has odered him to do it!
He was sober over a month before he even started the therapy, he will have 4 months sober this week.
If he had of refused therapy he would not have his license back.
He goes to therapy to keep his license, he goes to AA to stay sober.
Some times we have to simply do as we are told to get what we want.
I highly encourage you to fight this to the hilt, but you will need to make a decision.
Are you willing to go without a license until you win (which if you have the money & the backing I am sure you will) or just show up at the minimum of AA meetings they require, get your license back and then fight the battle.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,381
Yes most people at Smart meeting are court ordered. Smart is excepted as a recovery program in that town. AA is the same way.
People do things under the influence and end up in court because of it. We were talking about this at Smart meeting last night. There are so many people that still drink and drive today because they never got caught. Many times I drove and got away with it. I did not think I was going to jail when I left the house after drinking them days. It can happen to anyone.
People do things under the influence and end up in court because of it. We were talking about this at Smart meeting last night. There are so many people that still drink and drive today because they never got caught. Many times I drove and got away with it. I did not think I was going to jail when I left the house after drinking them days. It can happen to anyone.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,381
Hey Taz
Not even sure what the outcome will be yet. But waiting is not a problem. Even told my lawyer before the hearing that if I do get it back "what am I going to look forward to."
But I will do what I need to do. Thought I was doing the right thing already.
Not even sure what the outcome will be yet. But waiting is not a problem. Even told my lawyer before the hearing that if I do get it back "what am I going to look forward to."
But I will do what I need to do. Thought I was doing the right thing already.
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