Dee74

this is the second time today you've made this statement TK.

I don't get the comparison here anymore than I did in the other thread, but fact is many people with HIV/AIDS in 2008 can manage and effect control over their condition.

D

tommyk

Alot of people don't get it and that's okay, we take what we want and leave the rest.

Some people die of AIDS (and cancer) no matter their behavior, they have no choice in the matter. We 'choose' to drink, or choose not to drink, and that one single choice can allow us to escape death from our disease. Not for everybody - but for many.

Anyhow - I use the disease comparison as a hopeshot for some who feel they are at their lowest point, they most often aren't at their lowest point because they can 'choose' to recover, unlike some people with other diseases (that cannot choose).

We won't all grasp the same meanings from each others examples. If get totally annoying people can always put me on block.

jenniferk

Failure doesn't mean you are a failure... it just means you haven't succeeded yet.

Robert H. Schuller

RufusACanal

I understand the concept Tommy, but the comparison is controversial; both of the elements, Alcoholism and HIV do have a moral stigma attached. For me, the simple truth today is that I know from my personal experience that to drink is possibly to die, period. Many can gamble and I choose not to. I do not want to die that way. I do not want to humiliate my Wife, my friends, my coworkers or myself again. God has provided a life that is solid under my feet and stretches for miles in every direction.

Excellent Thread Judith.

Signal30

I see relapse as not a failure but a learning experience that can make you stronger.


Tom

unigirl

In my exp i failed my own goals of staying sober- what alcohloic hasn't? I was ill, i had an inability to see the truth, i could not accept i was an alcoholic, i was plagued with doubt- it wasnt a moral thing - but even if it was what does it matter, it is what led to my recovery. But does that make it any less of a failure of my own goals no - however i dont beat myself up over this now (i did at the time!). It was my stepping stone to getting in AA, then to finally surrendering and accepting what i was. This allowed me to find a new solution in the program of AA. Its just my experience.

RobbyRobot

i think we can all agree that a recovery path is more then not picking up. with that said then, what is a recovery relapse? is it only picking up? is it? hmmmm

i guess in a strict technical sense devoid of humanity yeah relapse is using, so that means i have not relapsed in many years. yay for me.

in my sobriety and clean time, i have had failures. many of them. none of them required me to pick up. some of those times though i became a lost dry drunk. is being dry drunk a failure of my recovery?

my marriage of 22 years will finalize in divorce most prolly this year. does that mean my love for my ex is a failure? is our friendship of 25 years a failure? is the new family inter-dependencies shared amongst myself, my daughter, and her mother a failure of our family? was our life together more then a marriage?

my divorce has not been messy and hate filled, [it has of course been hurt filled for all concerned] and the lawyers are all short leashed and behind us not in front of us. we all have a new chance at living again. is our divorce a faliure? hmmmm

i do embrace this important thread. i also find it difficult to be one-sided on the question presented in the OP. and fence sitting is just a dumb ass denial of choice, and a fools game to play and imposible to win. so what to do??

i remember a time ago i was drunk and stoned and dying. i was alone and i was lonely. i was scared and i was hateful and angry and stupid. i was consumed by denial and lies. i was a dead monster thing covered by human flesh. to know me was to be hurt by me.

i had been slipping for years by that point. hundreds of times i failed at quiting. i just kept picking up. and then one moment i just didn't pickup even when i friggin wanted to, and then another moment, and then another ... and now here i am. and the want for drugs is gone now but the need not to pickup is unchanged and as daily as that first moment which brought me here. has my addiction failed? hahaha me thinks not it just sleeps the monster does...

so did i somehow change into a sober guy in those first moments? no. did i have a spiritual awakening in those first moments? no. did i embrace a program? no. did i have a higher power? no. did i have some help? yes i did. i helped myself and i helped others help me. and i did it by simply not picking up and sharing and caring with others. and the other addicts that i lived with some of them did not pickup either. we started as a gang of 26 [guys and gals] living in a 14 bed residential rehab back in the summer of 1981. when i moved out 90 days later only a few of us had stayed clean. with only a few clean did the res rehab fail?

anyways. failure is not black and white to me now. today i live holistically meaning the whole is more than the sums of its parts. a life lived as a whole determines in an important way how the mulitude of parts behave in that life.

recovery from substance abuse is more then not relapsing. and not relapsing is less then recovery. addiction is more then "doing drugs" and an addiction stopped is less then a life unfulfilled. addicts are not the only examples of beings living and dying on this planet earth. and sometimes our questions are moot in the larger sense of the life which we are all of one family heart to heart.

RufusACanal

Good stuff Robby.

For the newcomer, leaving the drink question unanswered is deadly. How many empty chambers does the Drunk have left in the revolver of relapse?

Dee74

Not much of a 'hopeshot' for those struggling with AIDS or cancer Tommy...
some of whom I'd wager read this thread, or the other one

I've never gotten the 'my disease is better/less worse than yours' thing...it's useless points scoring....

all three diseases you've invoked here kill, and I think you've made a damn cheap point....

I guess I don't get it - fine by me.

we now return to regular programming....
D

RobbyRobot

thanks Rufus

all newcomers have already answered that question when they realized they have a desire to not use, show up, and then grasp at sobreity within a fellowship of liked minded persons. some of those advanced in sobriety failing to listen, accept, and truly support the small young voices of the newcomers as they struggle loads up that revolver more often then is actually admitted methinks.

i never saw a newcomer without desire, but i have seen old timers without desire. go figure.

Cathy31

So true, and I am so grateful to be sober today. I was in and out of AA about 18 months (more out than in LOL!) I hugely admire anyone who can just 'keep coming back' ( no matter what) cause it does work. We are truly blessed.

don't give up before the miracle happens!

Cathy31
x

tommyk

I agree, we 'choose' to become better.

Good to see you thinking with an open mind, Suki.

tommyk

I have a great deal of respect for your opinion and I truly regret that you feel my opinion is a 'damn cheap point'.

Thank you for your honesty. I'm sure there are more points we do agree on though, so all is well.