Don S

Hi, Bill,
Here is what I was referring to:

"Good luck with that smart thing which won't keep you sober. Be Cool BikerBill8"
For me SMART works. Haven't had a drink since I made a commitment to sobriety. But I read somewhere that the average person lapses 2 - 3 times, or more, before achieving sobriety.

I didn't put a sobriety date in my profile because I didn't see why that mattered. Nor do I see why it matters how long Dallas, or you or Peter or neil, have been sober. I am going on 1 1/2 years. So I guess that makes you twice as sober as me! :-)

I don't measure sobriety by its duration, or the intensity of fervor with which it is advocated. Sobriety is a little more zen to me: a state of mind in which alcohol or other drugs are not a part of our life or thinking, and have become irrelevant. That takes a different way of thinking, some changes in our core beliefs, and patience as the urges gradually dissipate. And each drink simply delays that state of sobriety.

I think neil has pretty well identified situations that are likely to lead him to choose to drink. Perhaps he has also figured out what the trigger was; sounds like boredom, or a feeling that it "isn't fair" to be stuck at home on a Friday night. Now we all can work on how he'll dispute those beliefs and change his behavior next time. That would be a useful exercise for anyone, regardless of the program they're using.

All together now: Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........
Don

DallasHawkins

Hey Bikerbill,

Thank you for your response. In answer to your query, I stopped drinking alcohol almost 1 year ago. Since I only have experience with AA and RR, I won't ask you about yours with SMART. I'm sorry to hear that your Big Plan wasn't effective, it has worked very well for me. Did you do it through the website or did you buy the New Cure book?

Stan

BikerBill8

Hey Dallas, I go to A A and that works for me. What ever works for you works for you. There is no cure so I don't know what you are talking about the new cure book? It just seems that you are bashing A A that's all. Sorry if I offended anyone hope that you can accept my apology. Be Cool BikerBill8

DallasHawkins

Hey Neilbg,

Sorry to hear about your messed up weekend, I've had some crazy times like that myself. I drank for years and years and really didn't have too much trouble in my life. But towards the end of my drinking career it seems like I became a problem magnet. And I also did things I would never do sober. When you want to stop you can do it, only you can do it. Hang in there dude.

Good luck,
Stan

DallasHawkins

Well Bill,

I'm glad AA works for you, I wasn't bashing anything. You emphatically stated that you had tried everything. I was just curious about your experience with RR. But it sounds as if you haven't tried RR so you obviously haven't tried everything. Sorry to have imposed on you, good luck with your program.

Don S

Hi, Jay,
I'm not sure what you mean by still having the obsession to drink (in RR, I assume you mean). Recognizing and combating the Addictive Voice, or the Beast, or whatever they call it, sounds like a simple technique for increasing the likelihood of success in early sobriety, when the urges are strong and self-confidence is low.

I guess AA focuses on filling your time with meetings, and calling frequently on a sponsor, during those early periods of temptation. SMART has you do a cost-benefit analysis, learn to dispute the "irrational beliefs" that led you to drink, and plan for how to combat urges. All provide some form of group support, which for many is the key to successful followthrough. All the programs have more detailed information to study while you do all this, but the "tricks" are mostly intended to get you past the difficult first few days and weeks.

Whether you accept the underlying philosophy may determine how successful you are in the long run; in the short run anything that distracts you from drinking is probably a good start! I suppose rehab or detox is the ultimate approach--complete physical removal from temptation, and intensive medical and psychological monitoring. I often wonder if the expense of that corresponds to an increased likelihood of longterm sobriety.

While we probably don't want to get into another long comparison of the different techniques, they are all abstinence-based, and I don't think any of them obsess on alcohol. Moderation Management seems to me to obsess a little--planning your drinking so carefully seems like it might be a red flag that you are a little preoccupied with that one part of your life....:-) If you follow the "harm reduction" theory, I suppose that moderation is better than heavy drinking. Most of us have found that moderation isn't a real successful option.

For me, the focus on disputing the beliefs that underlie our urges was very useful in early sobriety. So was avoiding triggers by planning for them. Learning from lapses can be useful, I guess, as you have a trigger, a set of beliefs, and the drinking situation all fresh in your mind (depending, I suppose, on how much you drank!). If you are a binge drinker, figuring out how to stop the binge from starting is the key. For a steady, "medicinal" drinker like me, it was figuring out what I wanted to accomplish by steadily medicating myself with an irregularly descending central nervous system depressant.

Don S

neilbg

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the advice and support and for not rubbing in my weekend's festivities.

Mootpoint,

You'e right about me needing to change "people, places and things" and about my so-called "friends". I think I've always known this, but quitting booze and bars feels like I'm getting a divorce and starting a new life. I know it sounds corny, but that's how I feel. I guess I have a love-hate relationship with alcohol. I know if I don't quit it will likely ruin me, but on the other hand, I know I will also miss some of the good times.

Jay Walker,

I feel that the RR book has really helped me with the concept of AVRT and I do believe in the fundamental concepts of Rational Recovery. I think their beliefs on the causes of addictions and why we continue to drink,etc, are much more reasonable then AA's. However, I don't really care about what the RR people feel about counselling or AA groups or anything else. As everyone else says, you take what you want from each method and leave the rest. I'm starting counselling on Friday with a Psychiatrist who specializes in addictions.

BikerBill,

My only point was that using relapses as evidence of the effectiveness of any given recovery method just isn't very logical. Based on this criteria alone, AA would probably come in dead last. Anyway, I don't want to get into the AA vs RR\SMART controversy again so I'll keep this short. The bottomline is that they all work if you're really ready to quit!


Dallas Hawkins,

Thanks. I think I've been really lucky so far without ever getting myself into serious trouble with my drinking. I've had a few assault charges, a couple DUI's, wrote off a few cars,etc,etc. But, I've never been convicted of anything and thus have no criminal record. Good alibi's and good lawyers have kept me out of trouble all these years. But, I know my luck will eventually run out.

I definitely agree with your comment that "When you want to stop you can do it, only you can do it". I think that was the problem with me quitting this time. Yes, I wanted to stop drinking, but I wasn't 100% committed to it. In fact, I got to the "Big Plan" chapter of the RR book and Trimpey warn's at the beginning of the chapter, "don't read any further unless you're 100% committed to quitting drinking right now and forever". You know what ? I put the book down for a few days and didn't even read any further. It's like I knew I wasn't ready just yet to take that final step. Anyway, today I continued reading and finally made my "Big Plan"!

Don S,

Boredom and weekends are definitely the triggers for me that will set me off on a weekend of binge drinking. You're right that I need a plan to deal with these times and keep me occupied with something else. Unfortunately, that's easier said then done, but I'm going to give it a lot of thought this week. I feel like a time bomb waiting to explode every weekend into the next binge. So, I'll have to come up with something this week.

I"m still new to the SMART method and waiting for the manual to to be shipped to me, but if I look at this in SMART ABC terms, would this be correct ?

A (the activating event) = my boredom during the weekend evening
B (my irrational belief) = I have to go out drinking on Friday nights or I'll remain bored, have no fun, no social life,etc
C (the consequences) = I go out and get drunk, maybe cause trouble, get hung over,etc
D (disputing my beliefs) = I guess I'll have to get out and
find new things to do on the weekend in order to dispute my belief. Because right now, with no other interesting options of things to do, my belief seems completely rational to me (i.e. if I do stay home I will be bored)

Anwyay, maybe my anlaysis above is wrong, but like I said, I'm still very new to SMART.

justaround71

I have used a combination of both A.A. and the SMART technique, which by the way is what just about all addiction specialists are using today (The SMART technique). Learning the ABC's, as they are abbrievated, are very invaluable toward sobriety for me. I needed a spirtiual guide in which I have lacked just about all my life and a connection with others that are looking for sobriety just as I was in order not to be around the same people, places, and thing. A.A. gave me both of these strengths out of their recovery program, the meetings became something that I enjoyed going to rather than getting nervous over. I tried A.A. as a sole recovery program and it ended in relapse because I wasn't aware of my false thinking process and irrational decisions and ideas. SMART made me much more aware of my addiction to alcohol/drugs and how to deal with "the beast" inside my head. I couldn't phanthom the idea that I had a disease either because it made me overly stressed. SMART taught me the consequences of my drinking and how to deal with and why I drank in the first place and how to prevent falling in that thinking mode again. I do not attend SMART meetings, for I see an addiction specialist once a week and that one hour is so worth it. We go over the program and new ways to combat any sort of craving in the future, the best thing is that he is not against A.A. either for he has the same belief as me...

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Every program has something to offer as long as you are willing

Let go and let God, we are onle human

I will take this one day at a time, yesterday doesn't exist anymore

neilbg

Hey Jordan,

Nice to hear from someone who's succeeding using both programs together. I'm thinking that this might be the best strategy for me as well. Using SMART and RR to help me avoid the drinking and change my behaviors and also maybe popping into some weekend AA meetings to keep me occupied and away from the bars! I'll bring it up on Friday with my counsellor. I think he will agree.

MootPoint

Neil........ sounds like you are seriouis about recovery

However you do it is cool with me. Please keep us updated on your progress and the methods you are using to acheive it.

TimOFromChicago

The desire to stop is what is usually lacking from most people who "try out" recovery, sobriety, whatever you want to call it and don't stay sober. It appears that you don't want to continue this self destuctive behavior, and that's the most important part. Just don't give up.

Don S - thanks for all of the SMART info. I'm an AA'er and it looks like SMART and AA are not as dissimilar as most would think. I've never been one to say that AA is the only solution (works for me, but that's just me) so it's nice to have some good solid data on at least one of the alternatives. It actually will help even more as I have a family member who wants to get and stay sober but doesn't buy into the AA way of doing things. I'm going to point him in the direction of SMART and we'll see what happens...

Thanks again for the good information exchange and keep on plugging away Neil! If you really want it you'll get get


TimO

Don S

Hi, neil,
You've got the technique of an ABC. And, like most people, you've gotten hung up on the D: disputing the belief, because you don't think it's irrational.
Perhaps separating "having fun" from "getting drunk" will be a good first step for you. Is it impossible to have fun sober? If so, what is it about drinking that makes activities fun? I don't think non-drinkers are all serious, moody individuals who aren't capable of fun activities.

Your comment about a "love-hate" relationship with alcohol is probably true of most of us. I had to acknowledge that I really, really liked alcohol before I could act on getting it out of my system. It is also why I choose not to try to drink moderately: I like the stuff too much to stop after I start. Sound familiar, folks?

One of my online SMART compadres compared ending your drinking to ending a love affair, and the parallels are eerie. You want to keep it going, even though you know you shouldn't. You just want one last fling "for the good times." You'll never be happy again. You feel a little depressed about the loss of something so familiar. There's even the infamous "can't we at least be friends?" issue--which is what we're really trying to do when we "moderate" our drinking.

His comment was that if we obsess with what we've "lost" we forget to realize what we've gained in sobriety. That's where the CBA comes in handy. You write down the costs (and benefits), and you carry them around with you. You refer to your CBA often, and add to it as more costs occur to you.

So, it's Friday. You have identified the "reward" of your leisure time as a time when you are used to drinking, and to boredom as one of your triggers (it's interesting how often that comes up; see the thread by Stacey).

People who successfully quit drinking anticipate urges and plan for them. So, what are your plans for this evening?

Talk to you soon, neil, and thanks for posting.
Don S

rockinsupergirl

Biker Bill...
I've been reading your comments in this thread, and notice a very defensive tone (to say the least). Why are you so angry? These type of comments to Don S and Dallas (and a few others) seem quite caustic and clearly unnecessary, and this concerns me. Neil is struggling with what to do, and all you seem to end up doing is predicting his eminent doom. He is even open to trying AA, but right now it's clear that you have a PERSONAL problem with the other options he's exploring. Why is that?

If you'd like to know...Iam a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous, and found it to be an incredible journey that has led me to remain sober for almost 5 months. I feel a profound sense of calm, which is rare for me. I found a higher power, which is rare for me. I ALSO found that I have stopped judging others...
Something to think about...

rockinsupergirl

Neil,
Way to go on being so motivated to quit drinking! The first month or two can be the hardest, so Iam glad to see you have a foundation. Iam in AA, but definitely found the info on SMART principles to be very enlightening. Don S helped explain it to me on another thread. Iam always open to learning all I can about other methods of recovery.

As we say in AA, keep coming back!

Michelle

C61

Neil,

Keep up the good work. Find what works for you and work it. I will have six months next Tuesday and I have used a combination of ideas from all the groups mentioned in the above posts. Never let anyone tell you that there is only one way. We are all different and we became drunks for our own reasons and we will have to recover in our own unique way.

If you need one group to focus on or to give your revovery effort its basic structure, I would advise you to use SMART. The people are great, the techniques are excellecent, and you are treated and helped as an individual.

Clark

nohiogal

Hi, I just wanted to say that I have been reading alot of the posts here and I did not realize till after I read this one that there were any other options besides AA. After Reading the SMART intro I think it something that can really work for me. I watched my brother go through the whole AA process and it did not work for him 1. cause he didn't really want to quit 2. meeting other ppl that really didn't want to quit which in turn just made more ppl to meet to party with. I have had a problem with drinking for some time. I used to be able to just party on the weekends and leave it all week but thats not the case anymore, actually its not even partying anymore its just drinking, and although I can't say I have hit rock bottom cause I don't think I have, I want to stop before I get there and lose everything that is so important to me when I am sober but seems get pushed to the side when I am drinking. I also feel I need to change my scope of friends or I should say lack of friends since I think 99.9 % are more drinking buddies than friends, that even included both my ex husbands.

Anyway, I have read a lot of the post here, not just in this thread but most of the others as well and it was really helped me alot. You all seem like a great bunch of ppl that are in or have been in the same spot I am at and it helped me alot to feel I am not alone as I think I am. (and scared to I might add)

Tina

CarolD

Glad you are seeking answers...

My best to you..

Don S

Hi, Tina,
Thanks for your comments. No program is going to work for someone who isn't committed to sobriety! Finding motivation and making that commitment seem to be real obstacles for lots of people. I've never been to an AA meeting, so maybe others can make suggestions about how to make better use of them. I know it is the first place lots of people go, so perhaps you're more likely to find ambivalent folks there--plus a certain number who have been sent there against their will.

Your drinking, in my opinion, sounds like it has gone from intermittent social behavior to an engrained habit--"just drinking" as you put it. It's always great to hear from someone who wants to change that behavior earlier rather than later in life. The sooner you change your lifestyle and your attitudes about drinking, the easier it is to do!

One of the first things you might find helpful is making a list of the benefits you feel you get from drinking, and then a list of the costs--the negative aspects--of drinking. The cost side is usually a lot longer than the benefit side, but many people find it helpful to have it in writing and to add to it as time goes by. This cost-benefit list can be a surprisingly powerful tool to help reinforce your commitment.

Thanks for posting, and talk to you soon!
Don