SeekingSelf

As much as I've been reading lately, and talking to a counselor, everytime I hear or read "It's the disease talking" or "The disease is causing your fear because it wants control of you", part of me has a hard time accepting that. I'M the one that made these choices. I'M the one who can't muster up the willpower to stop. How is it right to blame 'the disease' and not myself? Isn't that ignoring the notion of personal responsibility?

sugErspun

I don't think it's ignoring personal responsibility.

It's acknowledging that something is wrong, ie- not normal.

Your sick, acknowledge that fact and start moving through it. You acknowledge it, in part, by 'watching your thoughts' - the disease at work.

CarolD

Want to know what is happening to your body and brain?

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...influence.html

You can call it what you want....malady...hex... disease.
The point is to save yourself from unchecked alcoholism.

And........I never say either of the statements
you mentioned.

Good to see you again!

warrens

SeekingSelf

I'm not going to try to convince yout that it is a disease. Or not. Or an allergy.

What I do know is that I've known many people over the decades who drank more than I did and were not alcoholics. Seriously. In my 20's and 30's in Chicago, the pub was a way of life for people my age. High achieving people.

But they could take it or leave it. Or they could have just one. Or they could go on a cruise and get smashed every night for two weeks. And come home and not drink for a week. Without even thinking about it.

I can't do that. I can't have just one beer. I can't drink just 2 nights/week.

There is something fundamentally different between them and me. I don't need to explain it. All I know is right now I'm doing fine not drinking. But I could never have one without having 3-4. And I would then do the same thing tomorrow. And then 6-10 beers this weekend. I would not be able to be comfortable without at least a six pack in the fridge.

Do I think it is a disease? Yup. I also think that obesity and anorexia are diseases. Sexual obsession is a disease. Obsessive cleaning is a disease. Just my opinion. What if I'm wrong? Doesn't matter, when I drink I am not in control. Is that a moral failing? It is not a decison to drink or not, the issue is how much. I can have none, but I cannot have one. So be it.

warrens

Jfanagle

Dis+Ease This is an actual although obsolete definition of the word. This has always made it easier for me to listen to the common statements in AA rooms regarding the "disease of alcoholism."

My lack of ease with myself and the world around me was in fact a major contributor to my looking for solace in a bottle. In that way I came to understand other's reference to alcoholism as a disease.

The "cure" for me was and continues to be a way of living that puts me at "ease" with myself and the world around me. It is my responsibility to live in a manner that I stay at ease and thereby remain not only sober, but a better person for those who have to interact with me. If someone were to say "Jon is really being a royal pain today, it must be the dis-ease talking." They would be correct in the assumption and in fact it would be up to me to relieve my DIS-EASE and become someone that other humans would find fit company.

Ah-ha!! How will we cure old Jon boy? Perhaps a trip to an AA meeting will restore him to sanity. My dis-ease, my responsibility, end of MY story!

Thanks for reading,

Jon

Emimily

hmm... my standard response to the disease quandry is always that if it's good enough for the AMA, it's good enough for me.

you know what sucks? alcoholism is the only disease you get yelled at for having... "dammit adam, you're an alcoholic!" vs. "dammit adam, you have lupus!" one of those just doesn't sound right. (thank you, mitch hedburg. r.i.p.)

nandm

My thoughts on it are this. Yes, I realize that there are those that will not see eye to eye with me and I do not post this to turn this thread into a debate about whether or not alcohol is a disease I am relating my experience. That is all. I leave it to each individual to determine through their own experience whether or not they feel alcoholism is a disease.

Alcoholism

• I made the choice to pick up the first drink
• Alcohol reacts differently to my mind and body than it does to normal drinkers
• I experience the phenomenon on obsession
• what initially started out as a choice has become a disease for me
• I need medicine (for me that is AA) to treat my disease
• some people die (in fact many die) from this disease

Cancer

• A person makes a choice to smoke, eat high fat foods, not exercise, and do those things that are considered risk factors for cancer
• Some people when they make those choices find that those choices have resulted in their body reacting differently than some others as it develops cancer because of the intial choice
• Once the cancer has started, it is a battle to regain control over it
• Cancer needs to be treated medically
• Some people die from the cancer

Lots of similiarities IMHO. Because of that I realize that once my body and mind have been affected by the alcohol and it reacts differently in me than in a normal drinker my will power on its own is no longer an effect tool for treating this problem. I need help to treat it. There are many methods for treating alcoholism, many different recovery programs. The reason is that if a person was able to control their alcholism on their own power then alcoholism would not be a problem. Alcoholics need help to treat their problem.

There are many programs that work on that help by providing tools that help a person regain strength and control. Some programs are based on utilizing a Power greater than themselves for help with the problem. If you find you are struggling please check into the recovery programs thread at the top of the alcoholism forum. Lots of different recovery methods to try and you don't have to do it alone nor do you have to give your power over to someone else to utilize many of them. Personally what worked for me was AA. But here at SR we have representatives from many different recovery methods, so no matter which program you use you should be able to find someone here who uses the same one.

Lily

SeekingSelf,

I just don't know if I buy into the disease model either, however I do need support and meetings are a must for me.

I am not trying as hard to figure it out anymore cuz to me it just doesn't matter anymore. I went from thinking it was a full blown disease, to not a disease at all, which kind of took me back out there cuz I no longer worked on my program of recovery to now I will quit trying to figure it out, not really care if they talk about disease anymore, cuz whether it is a disease or not, my brain is crazy in many aspects not just drugs and alcohol and I have just always been compulsive in many areas and I just need other ppl right now to help me along the way.... Sheila

lovingseren

Disease/Problem/Intolerance..........call it what you will.

I don't call it anything specific anymore, but I know it is Life Threatening, and like the diabetic who will not get in charge of his/her condition, and does things to exacerbate it, I will probably be in the terminal stages.



The program that works for me is about self responsibility and choice, each woman is empowered to take charge of her life, her problem, her thinking and her attitude.

Seren

Find what works best for you, I have seen people make it using all different programs and methods.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-programs.html

SeekingSelf

Thanks for all your responses. I'm on the fence about it. I recognize that alcohol affects me differently than it does non-alcoholics. My boyfriend, loving and supporting he may be, simply doesn't understand that it's not about willpower. Yes, it was my choice to drink, and yes, it was my choice to continue to drink, but it was always too HARD to make the choice not to drink, and mind-blowingly easy to make the choice to drink. He's been asking me so many questions that I just don't have the answers to: Why can't you just wean yourself off? (the answer: I just can't. I cannot control my own impulses when it comes to alcohol.) When did it become a disease and not just a choice? (answer: I don't know that I didn't always HAVE a disease- after all, I spent 7 years smoking pot every day, and when I quit smoking pot alcohol became the substitute.) I can't make him understand what I don't understand myself.

I especially want to thank CarolD for posting the link to the Under the Influence thread. I ordered that book today along with a few others, including the Big Book.

lovingseren

" I am responsible for myself and my actions. I am in charge of my life, my mind, my thoughts and my life"

When I choose to drink, it is a choice, but once I drink the first one, I lose all ability to make choice.............it's the first one that gets you every time.

We are not victims, we are people who need to manage our problem/disease, unlike cancer sufferers, we are the fortunate ones...we just have to cease to drink. I know cancer victims who would change places with us any day of the week.

Staying stuck as a helpless victim kept me drinking for years, and almost took my life......move forward sister.

Seren

bugsworth

For me I think there is a huge difference between believing you have a disease and believing you have a disease that has a brain.

I don't believe my disease is talking to me....trying to convince me...wispering in my ear...because IT wants me dead.....those are cravings...cravings for something one has used over and over......we do have power over our cravings....like Seren said we are not helpless victims....our "disease" is deadly, but can be put in remission by putting down the bottle.

Dee74

well, don't all fall off your chairs, but I'm with bugs on this one.

I've always suspected the disease model depends as much on the progressive demonization of addicts throughout the 20th century as it does to any scientic basis in fact, but that's just me playing devils advocate

more seriously, I have no idea what my alcoholism is, and I'm not much bothered - I only know it's something I must deal with everyday, and that's enough for me.

I do have a problem with the disease model in that some may use it to abrogate personal responsibility - no-one else ever poured a drink down my throat, least of all some gremlin in my head.

D

Tommyh

I do not have a disease or a addiction,I have a illness called alcoholism,which I believe I aquired because I drank too much booze for too long.My source=big book of alcoholics anonymous,3rd edition.
Before I could get sober and find peace,I had to take responsibility for every drop of booze I drank,and the things I did wrong and the things I did not do that I should have done.

end result,yes I had to be responbible for my irr-responsibility

"Isn't that ignoring the notion of personal responsibility?"
yes,I think so-it`s still playing the blame game

tennis71

Say you touch a red hot stove and burn your hand. It hurts really bad and therefore you learn to turn the stove off before touching it again.

Now, say you end up in the hospital after a night out drinking not knowing how you got there. You learned your lesson and swore not to do it again, because much like touching the hot stove, you hurt really bad as a result of your drinking. Then you go out a week later, drink and wake up in a hospital not knowing what happened the night before.

This is the insanity that is alcoholism, knowing what happens when you drink yet expecting a different result the next time. I would go even further and say that a normal person would not end up in the hospital in the first place because they do not have the same mental and physical reaction to alcohol. If someone kept touching the hot stove and continued to burn themselves, few would say that they lacked self control, they would look for another answer.

I think alcoholism is a disease of my mind and an allergy of my body. I have hopefully finished my research on the subject. What I need now is recovery and I have found the best source through AA and Outpatient Treatment.

Good luck and welcome to SR.

Tazman53

Well it looks like I will take the bait again!!!! LOL

Breaking out my whip to whip the dead horse again!!!!

I am a systems analyst, I can talk with experience and knoweldge on computors, software, hardware, networks, etc...........

I am not a scientist nor a doctor doing medical research on alcoholism.

When my car quits running I take it to a mechanic, he does research on my car, he calls me and tells me that his research has shown him that my crankshaft is shot and it needs to be replaced. Do I argue with him? Nope, he makes his living doing research on broken cars. (Now there may be some mechanics out side of the mainstream who tells me that my tires need to be rotated, but I do know that my engine is not rinning so that is likely not the culprit!)

Okay, I am being sued over some legal matter involving my home, I hire a lawyer and his research indicates that the law indicates that I am rightly being sued and I would be better of just correcting the matter. (There are lawyers that would say lets go to court and fight this, they are on the outer fringes and simply out to make more money) I chose to go with the mainstream lawyer he has done the research and knows I am wrong.

Okay now I am asked if alcoholism is a disease or not? Not being a research scientist or doctor I will accept what mainstream science and medicine says, it is a disease. Who am I to argue with them? Do I have research to back up what I am saying? Do I have the education or the experience? Oh sure I could say "Well Joe Blow who runs this clinic that makes millions every year treating alcoholics with witch craft says it is not a disease, it is a curse and I can remove it" Joe blow's research results are aquired to line Joe Blow's packet with cash!!!

In reality whether alcoholism is a disease or not does not matter, there are solutions for it, not cures, but solutions!

Now this is just my opinion, but any one who does not accept responsobility for thierselfs and their drinking and blames it on a disease and or a curse is wrong.

Part of my recovery is to accept responsibilty for every drink I ever took and every wrong I ever did, drinking or not, disease or curse!

Cathy31

Yep you are right, I'M the one (Hence the ism in alcoholism - I SELF and ME) who picks up - however!! It's the disease that ensures that when I pick up a physical allergy/craving kicks in and i can't stop til i pass out! I drink and drink and drink - a mental obsession then ALSO kicks in one which says THIS TIME IT WILL BE DIFFERENT...that's why I need to make sure, using all the tools available to me, not to pick up that first drink or my disease WILL ( in the 2 aforementioned ways!) get me!

Steve58

Another fish taking the bait here!

I think the definition is directly proportional to the profit motivations of the definer. It would server them all well to have to spend a year on this site before claiming to know anything about it.

Where the snake oil salesmen (and women!) out there would love to have you believe it's not disease, it's just a thought process, something they can fix for a 49.95 CD that will tell you nothing more than the common sense advice you can find here. And the insurance companies and rehab centers are all profit motivated, they call it a disease And our "blame it all on bad genes" society wants to blame our parents, The CDC, I won’t even go there, that would be more than I care to type.

I think a lot of the debate may come from the simple truth that alcohol affects each person differently. Its the old bell curve, varies from people who never cared for it on one end, to those that were hooked at their first drink at the other. And the most of us on that side of the curve that took years or decades to get to where our minds and bodies have changed and now we have (for myriad reasons) become dependant to various degrees on the stuff, and we come to the realization that we are (at the least) shortening and/or complicating our lives, to “dead within a year” sort of consumption, and want to stop.

Quite simply, whatever it is, it’s threatening us, we know it, or we wouldn’t be here.

S

SeekingSelf

It's so great to have a group of people who can help me figure out what's going on with me. I feel like I did when I was questioning my religious beliefs; only this time people can actually answer my questions.

Since the local treatment centers are not being entirely helpful (e.g., no beds, booking out til April, etc) and I want help NOW, I'm going to the ER tonight to ask for help detoxing. I hope it works and they admit me.

Tazman53

SeekingSelf I am going to send you an email with a way to get right into detox if they will not admit you right away.