choice
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Whiteland IN
Posts: 41
choice
There have many heated debates over the power of choice. Some alkies will say the power of choice has been removed from them. They say they don't have choice to drink, the mental aspect has been removed. These alkies seem to be living by the 12 steps, and they do seem to have more wisdom.
I have my own opinions, but I dont feel like typing all day. I simply believe that you are living the 12 steps, the choice can be removed.
Any wisdom on this would be greatly appreciated.
I have my own opinions, but I dont feel like typing all day. I simply believe that you are living the 12 steps, the choice can be removed.
Any wisdom on this would be greatly appreciated.
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
I think there is a choice when it comes to the first drink.
After that there is no choice. The alcoholic loses all control once alcohol has entered the system. That's the nature of the allergy IMO.
We have a body that can't use and a mind that can't not use.
After that there is no choice. The alcoholic loses all control once alcohol has entered the system. That's the nature of the allergy IMO.
We have a body that can't use and a mind that can't not use.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Well, as a member of AA I stick to the book.
It clearly states that there will be times when we are unable to choose correctly - therefore our 'choice' or ability to choose properly is flawed (lack of proportion and the ability to think straight).
The story of the car salesman is a very good example. It does not seem that he had the ability to choose correctly about putting whiskey in milk. He wasn't thinking straight.
So if I, at times, cannot think straight in regard to the first drink - choice is useless to me (I will make the wrong choice - this is based on experience).
It clearly states that there will be times when we are unable to choose correctly - therefore our 'choice' or ability to choose properly is flawed (lack of proportion and the ability to think straight).
The story of the car salesman is a very good example. It does not seem that he had the ability to choose correctly about putting whiskey in milk. He wasn't thinking straight.
So if I, at times, cannot think straight in regard to the first drink - choice is useless to me (I will make the wrong choice - this is based on experience).
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
This particular topic always leaves me with a sense that some alcoholics seek to find the reasons that things "won't work" as opposed to finding a way to make things "work."
Of course we all have the POWER to choose. Regardless whether one is in a 12 step program and living those steps, or if you are deep in the cups of alcohol and choosing to live a life of despair and misery. The power to make choices is always available; however the question is if one USES DISCRIMINATION when making those choices.
In my opinion, (please note the use of the word opinion), an alcoholic's problems begin when he or she makes the wrong choice. Wrong by definition is a choice that when exercised produces the effects that make one's life less than it could be. That is very simple, but when we look at life it really is rather simple, we just seem hell bent on complicating it.
We CHOOSE to drink or not, we CHOOSE to seek support in the rooms of AA, and we CHOOSE to either employ the 12 steps or not. I have often listened and read that by acknowledging the existence and possible effects of a power greater than ourselves that we have somehow relinquished our power of choice, but I submit that it is just the opposite. We have determined that we are not making or have not made some very "informed" and well CHOSEN decisions.
The act of seeking sobriety over drunken living is by itself a CHOICE. The act of seeking better information in order to make better CHOICES in the future is in fact a CHOICE. If you will, even turning ones life over to the C-A-R-E of a power better informed and more powerful than ones self is a very clear CHOICE.
I believe that I only ask for and therefore expect HELP from a higher power in the act of my making CHOICES. I have not turned over my life or my obligation to make choices to anyone or thing, I have simply placed my confidence in the fact that BETTER INFORMATION makes for BETTER CHOICES.
Just my observations and I CHOSE to inflict them on the rest of you hapless readers of this thread.
Enjoy today, or not, it is after all your CHOICE.
Jon
Of course we all have the POWER to choose. Regardless whether one is in a 12 step program and living those steps, or if you are deep in the cups of alcohol and choosing to live a life of despair and misery. The power to make choices is always available; however the question is if one USES DISCRIMINATION when making those choices.
In my opinion, (please note the use of the word opinion), an alcoholic's problems begin when he or she makes the wrong choice. Wrong by definition is a choice that when exercised produces the effects that make one's life less than it could be. That is very simple, but when we look at life it really is rather simple, we just seem hell bent on complicating it.
We CHOOSE to drink or not, we CHOOSE to seek support in the rooms of AA, and we CHOOSE to either employ the 12 steps or not. I have often listened and read that by acknowledging the existence and possible effects of a power greater than ourselves that we have somehow relinquished our power of choice, but I submit that it is just the opposite. We have determined that we are not making or have not made some very "informed" and well CHOSEN decisions.
The act of seeking sobriety over drunken living is by itself a CHOICE. The act of seeking better information in order to make better CHOICES in the future is in fact a CHOICE. If you will, even turning ones life over to the C-A-R-E of a power better informed and more powerful than ones self is a very clear CHOICE.
I believe that I only ask for and therefore expect HELP from a higher power in the act of my making CHOICES. I have not turned over my life or my obligation to make choices to anyone or thing, I have simply placed my confidence in the fact that BETTER INFORMATION makes for BETTER CHOICES.
Just my observations and I CHOSE to inflict them on the rest of you hapless readers of this thread.
Enjoy today, or not, it is after all your CHOICE.
Jon
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
My experience is that today I have the choice of whether or not to pick up the first drink. But the problem lies in once I pick up the first drink then it affects my mind and body and I no longer have a choice regarding the continued drinking.
I have a choice of whether or not I will apply the program of AA to my life so I have a defense against taking that first drink (reinforcing my choice not to drink). If I choose not to apply the program to my life then I choose to risk taking that first drink which leads to loss of choice regarding drinking.
I made the choice many times to quit drinking. Even was able to stop for a year without a program. But the key difference is that I never lost the obsession to drink. My mind was constantly obsessed with alcohol. "When could I drink again," "why could they drink and not me," "where could I get a drink," "why not take a drink" my head constantly spun over alcohol. With the application of the program of AA my mind does not obsess over alcohol. I have thought about taking a drink but that was all it was, a fleeting thought, not the head spinning obsession.
To sum up what I am trying to say:
I have a choice of whether or not I will apply the program of AA to my life so I have a defense against taking that first drink (reinforcing my choice not to drink). If I choose not to apply the program to my life then I choose to risk taking that first drink which leads to loss of choice regarding drinking.
I made the choice many times to quit drinking. Even was able to stop for a year without a program. But the key difference is that I never lost the obsession to drink. My mind was constantly obsessed with alcohol. "When could I drink again," "why could they drink and not me," "where could I get a drink," "why not take a drink" my head constantly spun over alcohol. With the application of the program of AA my mind does not obsess over alcohol. I have thought about taking a drink but that was all it was, a fleeting thought, not the head spinning obsession.
To sum up what I am trying to say:
- Yes, today I have a choice on whether or not I will pick up a drink. The key is I have to do the footwork (program of AA) if I choose not to drink.
- Once I pick up a drink I lose the power to choose how much or how long I will drink.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 56
Choice
Originally Posted by sugErspun 
It clearly states that there will be times when we are unable to choose correctly - therefore our 'choice' or ability to choose properly is flawed (lack of proportion and the ability to think straight).
Mine is clearly flawed- But I am free to be flawed. I am coming off a three day binge right now. Water and cigarettes.
If a fellow is willing to accept the consequences of his choices, who will cast the first stone?
I'm sure not complaining. I had no choice to drink because I believed such. I drank myself to sleep every night for 8 years and went to any lengths for the nights drink.
I now choose to put it down with less effort than it took to pick it up. (Serious consideration is involved in the picking it up part.)
The principals our program has BORROWED have been rendered no less effective in my life by my lack of sobriety. Indeed, they grow greater in importance as I learn the WHY part.
p.s. Just for the heck of it, my three day binge produced a beautiful piece of furniture (a bookcase), the re-convertance to Christianity of my father who is already a Christian minister, and, according to my sent email receipts, I am indeed a prime candidate for the French Foreign Legion.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Well, let's go back to the book again. One wonders why this statement would be in there at all...
"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistant. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink. - http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_BigBook_chapt2.pdf
This clearly describes an alcoholic (like me) state before taking the first drink. If I could just choose not to drink every day - why I am even here? My experience is that I cannot choose to not drink - it's not possible. The book, which is the absolute foundation of everything else that is labeled 'AA' states that this is a FACT for most alcoholics.
Maybe if experience doesn't confirm this, than you aren't alcoholic (or still different)....
If someone could point to the passage in the book where it describes where we are once again able to build a defense, I would be quite interested. Here I am thinking I gave my will and my life over to the care and love of a power greater than myself, yet I want to hold onto the notion that I am somehow making the 'choice' to be whatever it is I am once I have submitted myself? The fact that my thinking straightens out (sanity returns) when I am connected to God does not mean I take credit ("I choose") for not drinking. Only through the grace of God - a miracle- am I sober today. To say that I have chosen to be sober, is just trying to give myself credit for something that I admitted at the first step that I couldn't do.
"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistant. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink. - http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_BigBook_chapt2.pdf
This clearly describes an alcoholic (like me) state before taking the first drink. If I could just choose not to drink every day - why I am even here? My experience is that I cannot choose to not drink - it's not possible. The book, which is the absolute foundation of everything else that is labeled 'AA' states that this is a FACT for most alcoholics.
Maybe if experience doesn't confirm this, than you aren't alcoholic (or still different)....
If someone could point to the passage in the book where it describes where we are once again able to build a defense, I would be quite interested. Here I am thinking I gave my will and my life over to the care and love of a power greater than myself, yet I want to hold onto the notion that I am somehow making the 'choice' to be whatever it is I am once I have submitted myself? The fact that my thinking straightens out (sanity returns) when I am connected to God does not mean I take credit ("I choose") for not drinking. Only through the grace of God - a miracle- am I sober today. To say that I have chosen to be sober, is just trying to give myself credit for something that I admitted at the first step that I couldn't do.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by sugErspun
If someone could point to the passage in the book where it describes where we are once again able to build a defense, I would be quite interested. Here I am thinking I gave my will and my life over to the care and love of a power greater than myself, yet I want to hold onto the notion that I am somehow making the 'choice' to be whatever it is I am once I have submitted myself? The fact that my thinking straightens out (sanity returns) when I am connected to God does not mean I take credit ("I choose") for not drinking. Only through the grace of God - a miracle- am I sober today. To say that I have chosen to be sober, is just trying to give myself credit for something that I admitted at the first step that I couldn't do.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 56
The God of my understanding is big enough to allow credit where credit is due.
I apologize for jumping in here and would not have a line of discussion which could compromise or weaken the sobriety of any other member, though if they value it, it should withstand the test. Let's just drop it.
I apologize for jumping in here and would not have a line of discussion which could compromise or weaken the sobriety of any other member, though if they value it, it should withstand the test. Let's just drop it.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
It is not my intention to upset someone else's view of their relationship with their higher power, therefore if the term "choose" makes some uncomfortable, please accept my apology.
I have always counted one of the promises to include a return to sanity which implies for me at any rate, responsibility in all things, my own actions included. The use of directions provided by the atlas from Rand McNally does not mean Rand McNally is going to make the left and right turns for me as I drive down the road. Those choices are mine; I just have been given a book with the guidance and direction.
Happy Trails and at least we are all quite passionate about our use of the program and everyone seems coherent enough in their writings that I suspect them of serious sobriety.
Thanks,
Jon
I have always counted one of the promises to include a return to sanity which implies for me at any rate, responsibility in all things, my own actions included. The use of directions provided by the atlas from Rand McNally does not mean Rand McNally is going to make the left and right turns for me as I drive down the road. Those choices are mine; I just have been given a book with the guidance and direction.
Happy Trails and at least we are all quite passionate about our use of the program and everyone seems coherent enough in their writings that I suspect them of serious sobriety.
Thanks,
Jon
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
choice
Very interesting. I agree that I choose to apply the program (sometimes) and as a result (or "the" result), I am relieved of the obsession to drink.
If I simply chose not to drink that would probably not work so well, knowing me.
If I simply chose not to drink that would probably not work so well, knowing me.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
This is probably one of my favorite topics. It was the absolute most difficult concept to get my head around and one of the most difficult truths to see. See, I bought the notion of "think through the drink" for a long time. I thought the story of Jim mixing whiskey with milk and Fred picking up a drink after a succesful business venture were laughable. Particularly after they had gained so much self knowlwedge. It was when I drank again after a period of sobriety that left me completly baffled. Here I had a string of past consequences to look back on. A history of a couple of treatments, hours and hours spent in the rooms of AA. No step work with a sponsor. And no real connection in AA left me vulnerable for one main reason. Like I said I bought the notion of "Think through the drink" " meeting makers make it" among other catchy phrases. Or and I love this one..." I choose not to drink today". The problem with this is that what I'm relying on is my own mind to keep me from picking up a drink and not God. If you are choosing not to drink today I ask you to consider that maybe you have made your mind your God and not a power greater than yourself your God. And, if you are relying on self, you will eventually get drunk.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Florham Park, NJ
Posts: 174
Im not sure I get the initial post? What do you mean no choice if living the 12steps? Living the 12steps gives you BACK your choice doesnt remove it?
We never become robots just because God is helping us. It is an excercise of diligence to keep Him in the forefront of our lives to enable the right choice when it comes to it. IOW, our choice is for God to help us with the choice of to drink or not too. Its all about getting our freedom of choice, not taking it away.
What I gained from AA is I got my choice back when the thought crosses my mind to run away with a drink. Choice to do the next right thing rather than the wrong one. Its all about choice.
Even before AA, I don't buy the we never had the choice. I just didn't have the strength to resist the WRONG one. I needed help to excercise the right choice (to not drink) and find the strength within me (God) to help me with that.
We never become robots just because God is helping us. It is an excercise of diligence to keep Him in the forefront of our lives to enable the right choice when it comes to it. IOW, our choice is for God to help us with the choice of to drink or not too. Its all about getting our freedom of choice, not taking it away.
What I gained from AA is I got my choice back when the thought crosses my mind to run away with a drink. Choice to do the next right thing rather than the wrong one. Its all about choice.
Even before AA, I don't buy the we never had the choice. I just didn't have the strength to resist the WRONG one. I needed help to excercise the right choice (to not drink) and find the strength within me (God) to help me with that.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Whiteland IN
Posts: 41
I would not have posted this, if I thought I would get a variety of posts. This is a very confusing topic in AA, I will refrain from sharing. This sometimes confuses a newcomer, more than it will help.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by gutterman317
I would not have posted this, if I thought I would get a variety of posts. This is a very confusing topic in AA, I will refrain from sharing. This sometimes confuses a newcomer, more than it will help.
It's about finding your own answers through others opinions. If you only want to hear the answer you expected, then you are going to be let down by many... supported by others... keep an open mind and a closed bottle.
Hope you stick around
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Gutterman! You are a ******* and a Colt Fan, Stand up and be counted man. Shielding the newcomer is not the answer for me anyway. Reality is that folks do not have agree. Welcome and always appreciate a *******!
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