Whither Big Book Thumping?
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
FightingIrish I don't mean to sound harsh or defensive. I understand how you feel dealing with the type of people who act like AA police and point out the faults of others. I know of people who are like that, and that is wrong. The BB is a book of suggestions. Some members portray the "high and mighty" act.
Speaking of that an example from "Working With Others", in the BB.
"Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help. "
Not going to a meeting because of one or two people effects you, the people who care about you, and that possible newcomer who might need you or your suggestions. Focus on the positive at a meeting and pray for those who you see are spiritually sick.
Tom
Speaking of that an example from "Working With Others", in the BB.
"Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection. Show him how they worked with you. Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if he wants to get well you will do anything to help. "
Not going to a meeting because of one or two people effects you, the people who care about you, and that possible newcomer who might need you or your suggestions. Focus on the positive at a meeting and pray for those who you see are spiritually sick.
Tom
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 423
Great point Tom - It is like some people have a positive outlook on life and see the good in whatever activities they participate in - Versus those that focus a little too much on the negative aspects.
I can promise you that I was pretty darn negative when I was drinking or early on in my sobriety, but that subsided over time. Now I have a lot more patience for things that I used to not be able to handle!
Dave
I can promise you that I was pretty darn negative when I was drinking or early on in my sobriety, but that subsided over time. Now I have a lot more patience for things that I used to not be able to handle!
Dave
problem with authority
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
Some people? Could you be talking about, um, alcoholics possibly? 
Great point Tom - It is like some people have a positive outlook on life and see the good in whatever activities they participate in - Versus those that focus a little too much on the negative aspects.
I admit I thrive a bit on drama and also have a HUGE problem with mis-placed authority. I am working on it and asking for help.
I can promise you that I was pretty darn negative when I was drinking or early on in my sobriety, but that subsided over time. Now I have a lot more patience for things that I used to not be able to handle!
I went to High Watch Farm last night with a couple of friends for the open three-speaker meeting. Wow. Pretty f-ing amazing. The second guy who spoke made a huge point of saying that although he was full of suggestions, it was not up to him to tell anyone how to be spiritual or run their program. It was like bread from heaven and I listened to him with rapt attention...
Great point Tom - It is like some people have a positive outlook on life and see the good in whatever activities they participate in - Versus those that focus a little too much on the negative aspects.
I admit I thrive a bit on drama and also have a HUGE problem with mis-placed authority. I am working on it and asking for help.
I can promise you that I was pretty darn negative when I was drinking or early on in my sobriety, but that subsided over time. Now I have a lot more patience for things that I used to not be able to handle!
I went to High Watch Farm last night with a couple of friends for the open three-speaker meeting. Wow. Pretty f-ing amazing. The second guy who spoke made a huge point of saying that although he was full of suggestions, it was not up to him to tell anyone how to be spiritual or run their program. It was like bread from heaven and I listened to him with rapt attention...
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 170
You mentioned that the second speaker said it was not up to him to tell anyone how to be spiritual or run their program. If that statement was like bread from heaven then why on earth do you care how others have obtained spirituality or practice their program? There are always going to be people who thump the book. There are always going to be people who don’t know what the book is. However the only person in the room who has to find a spiritual experience is me.
When perfection comes the imperfect disappear.
problem with authority
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
Because the program is full of all sorts of delicious ironies and paradoxes.
Because it's refreshing to be invited to learn rather than told to do so.
Because I want what he has.
Because it's refreshing to be invited to learn rather than told to do so.
Because I want what he has.
Originally Posted by 1cor13 
You mentioned that the second speaker said it was not up to him to tell anyone how to be spiritual or run their program. If that statement was like bread from heaven then why on earth do you care how others have obtained spirituality or practice their program? There are always going to be people who thump the book. There are always going to be people who don’t know what the book is. However the only person in the room who has to find a spiritual experience is me.
When perfection comes the imperfect disappear.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by FightingIrish
Because the program is full of all sorts of delicious ironies and paradoxes.
Because it's refreshing to be invited to learn rather than told to do so.
Because I want what he has.
Because it's refreshing to be invited to learn rather than told to do so.
Because I want what he has.
Again why do you care how others obtained their spirituality or how they work their program? What do those three examples have to do with my question?
The programs delicious ironies and paradoxes never stopped me from getting sober or drunk. It is refreshing to be invited to learn rather than to be told to do so. Kind of like alcohol very inviting and refreshing no one ever told me to take a drink. I was always invited, hey how about just one you’ll learn sooner or later.
If you want what that man has then the only person stopping you is you.
problem with authority
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
I'm not really certain what your question has to do with me or anything I have said, actually. Maybe that's the difficulty here.
Originally Posted by 1cor13
Again why do you care how others obtained their spirituality or how they work their program? What do those three examples have to do with my question?
The programs delicious ironies and paradoxes never stopped me from getting sober or drunk. It is refreshing to be invited to learn rather than to be told to do so. Kind of like alcohol very inviting and refreshing no one ever told me to take a drink. I was always invited, hey how about just one you’ll learn sooner or later.
If you want what that man has then the only person stopping you is you.
The programs delicious ironies and paradoxes never stopped me from getting sober or drunk. It is refreshing to be invited to learn rather than to be told to do so. Kind of like alcohol very inviting and refreshing no one ever told me to take a drink. I was always invited, hey how about just one you’ll learn sooner or later.
If you want what that man has then the only person stopping you is you.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 170
Well lets take a look at what you said just to be clear the question in pertinent.
Bleeding deacons and Big Book Thumpers. From where do they come and why?
I am very much baffled by the motivation of some of these people. They are EVERY where in the rooms and on here too.
I don't know how I could maintain a humble stance toward God and my fellows while also saying things like this with clockwork regularity:
Is this helping with your sobriety? Tell me if so, because I'm willing to take all the suggestions that work for others. What page did you say that was on again? PAGE 103 LAST PARAGRAPH
The guy he chose as his speaker, however, is probably one of the biggest jerks I have heard in a long time, and he has even more time than the first guy.
Again why do you care how others obtained their spirituality or how they work their program? How pertinent is the question now? It doesnt matter its none of my business and it was just a question. After reading your post again I already got the answer, thank you for your thread.
Bleeding deacons and Big Book Thumpers. From where do they come and why?
I am very much baffled by the motivation of some of these people. They are EVERY where in the rooms and on here too.
I don't know how I could maintain a humble stance toward God and my fellows while also saying things like this with clockwork regularity:
Is this helping with your sobriety? Tell me if so, because I'm willing to take all the suggestions that work for others. What page did you say that was on again? PAGE 103 LAST PARAGRAPH
The guy he chose as his speaker, however, is probably one of the biggest jerks I have heard in a long time, and he has even more time than the first guy.
Again why do you care how others obtained their spirituality or how they work their program? How pertinent is the question now? It doesnt matter its none of my business and it was just a question. After reading your post again I already got the answer, thank you for your thread.
When perfection comes the imperfect disappear.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
We have a fellow at our small local meeting, certainly not an old timer at 8 years. He can quote out of the big book and tell you exactly what page, but doesn't live the program.
There are all types in AA.
My sponsor is a big book thumper and I am grateful for that. However, he is one of the most humble people I have ever met.
Our group has really struggled the past year or so, and I'm learning to ask myself what can I do to help, rather than bitching about what isn't.
I'm so grateful for AA.
There are all types in AA.
My sponsor is a big book thumper and I am grateful for that. However, he is one of the most humble people I have ever met.
Our group has really struggled the past year or so, and I'm learning to ask myself what can I do to help, rather than bitching about what isn't.
I'm so grateful for AA.
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Freedom1990
We have a fellow at our small local meeting, certainly not an old timer at 8 years. He can quote out of the big book and tell you exactly what page, but doesn't live the program.
problem with authority
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
I guess there's the catch. Judge not lest you be judged.
I think much of my frustration is that I have made peace with/am friendly with a number of these individuals I speak of, and I am learning to develop a sense of humor about both their continued behavior and my own in so much as I am basically doing the same thing they are. Yet their behavior continues (and so does mine.)
This group is also going through quite a bit of hardship in finding its way. When I moved up here I was talking with my first sponsor and telling him that AA up here was like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Bitter factions warring left and right, and many of the folks whom I'm getting close to are breaking off, some people are forming scattered new groups in direct contrast (same times, etc.) to this paricular group.
One new group is even going so far as to say that members (those who attend the business meeting) must be voted in. It's getting a little crazy, and people have told me it's because of the thumpers and the inventory-takers. So it's a little frustrating to see it keep happening knowing what the implications are. I'm going to stick with it in the hope that I can be helpful. But that too my frustration...not being able to control other people's behavior. Imagine that?
Thanks again all.
I think much of my frustration is that I have made peace with/am friendly with a number of these individuals I speak of, and I am learning to develop a sense of humor about both their continued behavior and my own in so much as I am basically doing the same thing they are. Yet their behavior continues (and so does mine.)
This group is also going through quite a bit of hardship in finding its way. When I moved up here I was talking with my first sponsor and telling him that AA up here was like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Bitter factions warring left and right, and many of the folks whom I'm getting close to are breaking off, some people are forming scattered new groups in direct contrast (same times, etc.) to this paricular group.
One new group is even going so far as to say that members (those who attend the business meeting) must be voted in. It's getting a little crazy, and people have told me it's because of the thumpers and the inventory-takers. So it's a little frustrating to see it keep happening knowing what the implications are. I'm going to stick with it in the hope that I can be helpful. But that too my frustration...not being able to control other people's behavior. Imagine that?
Thanks again all.
Originally Posted by Music
You must know him better than most??
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
My favorite AA motto, or I guess it's not technically an AA motto because it's not in the BB, is "keep it simple". AA is a simple program of recovery. It is us, the alcoholics that sometimes try to make it more difficult than it actually is. Ego and self-seeking intentions can get in the way of our primary purpose, I've seen it happen. Heck I'm an expert at making things harder than they actually are. Bad habits die hard, that's why it is important to exercise these principals every day in life. Progress rather than perfection.
Tom
Tom
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 423
Now I understand what you are saying fighting Irish - I had a similar experience in that early on I went to a few different AA groups before I found one that I felt comfortable with. No judging, no games; just people that support one another and share experiences.
Another group I tried was so large (there had to be 50-60 people there) that I felt lost and did not get much out of the meetings.
Is it possible to find a different support system (or maybe that is what you are trying to do?)
Another group I tried was so large (there had to be 50-60 people there) that I felt lost and did not get much out of the meetings.
Is it possible to find a different support system (or maybe that is what you are trying to do?)
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by FightingIrish
This group is also going through quite a bit of hardship in finding its way. When I moved up here I was talking with my first sponsor and telling him that AA up here was like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Bitter factions warring left and right, and many of the folks whom I'm getting close to are breaking off, some people are forming scattered new groups in direct contrast (same times, etc.) to this paricular group.
We did lose some oldtimers over that mess who decided to attend AA elsewhere.
The group has survived well over 35 years now. Attendance is once again down, but as long as there are two people, it's a meeting! Things seem to run in cycles here.
This is a small town of only 3000, and at one time we did have two groups, but the smaller one folded.
I just try and contribute what I can at meetings and to my group's well-being.
Sober 22 years and relapsed
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 33
I could get a parrot to learn to say those same things. I prefer original thought and some deep-down thinking to the phrases I've heard over and over again. All it does when I hear those same things over and over again, is turn my brain off since theirs seems to be off.
Originally Posted by FightingIrish
I have been sober/working the AA program for six months as of this week. As someone with this much (little) time, I believe I am still very much a newcomer and have much learning to do.
One of the things I do in my program (in addition to reading from AA-approved literature at least once a day, praying on my knees, talking with my sponsor and other alcoholics, service and step work) is go to a lot of meetings (at least one every day), but I am starting to think I need to cut back on meetings.
Why?
Bleeding deacons and Big Book Thumpers. From where do they come and why?
Now, I know that resentments such as these hurt me more than they hurt anyone else, and I need to work on them diligently in order to maintain my sobriety, but I am very much baffled by the motivation of some of these people. They are EVERYwhere in the rooms and on here too.
I don't know how I could maintain a humble stance toward God and my fellows while also saying things like this with clockwork regularity:
I noticed that a lot of behavior like this comes up when we have incomings from other male-dominated groups known to be "strong AA." Basically, what happens is the "leaders" from our group get themselves all lathered up in some macho ******** and start spouting things like, "ok, boys, tonight you're going to hear some REAL message...get ready."
I admit it's verry possible I am just in a group that has more than its fair share of sick people, myself included, but then I come on here and read the same stuff in the 12-step forums.
Is this helping with your sobriety? Tell me if so, because I'm willing to take all the suggestions that work for others. What page did you say that was on again?
-M
One of the things I do in my program (in addition to reading from AA-approved literature at least once a day, praying on my knees, talking with my sponsor and other alcoholics, service and step work) is go to a lot of meetings (at least one every day), but I am starting to think I need to cut back on meetings.
Why?
Bleeding deacons and Big Book Thumpers. From where do they come and why?
Now, I know that resentments such as these hurt me more than they hurt anyone else, and I need to work on them diligently in order to maintain my sobriety, but I am very much baffled by the motivation of some of these people. They are EVERYwhere in the rooms and on here too.
I don't know how I could maintain a humble stance toward God and my fellows while also saying things like this with clockwork regularity:
- "that's not in our literature..."
- "that's not vernacular we use..."
- "on page 23, it clearly states..."
- "it's all there in black and white..."
- "i'm taking your inventory? well, someone's got to..."
- "the people who come into these rooms today...[insert alleged weakness]"
- "can you imagine, some people take [as long as]/[as little as] five months to get through the steps these days..."
I noticed that a lot of behavior like this comes up when we have incomings from other male-dominated groups known to be "strong AA." Basically, what happens is the "leaders" from our group get themselves all lathered up in some macho ******** and start spouting things like, "ok, boys, tonight you're going to hear some REAL message...get ready."
I admit it's verry possible I am just in a group that has more than its fair share of sick people, myself included, but then I come on here and read the same stuff in the 12-step forums.
Is this helping with your sobriety? Tell me if so, because I'm willing to take all the suggestions that work for others. What page did you say that was on again?
-M
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What page did you say that was on again?
This is a great thread, it has a lot of good points and advice. My sponsor explained to me that the expression "Take what you want and leave the rest." applied only to what was said at meetings and not the BB, he clarified that AA is a program of suggestions and that it was up to me as to whether or not I wanted to follow all of the suggestions in the first 164 pages, but that my odds of staying sober and finding peace went through the roof if I did.
Love and tolerance, love and tolerance!!! I have heard and seen a lot of crap in meetings, but I still came away with something, when it was crap I learned how I did not want to be and act, but I have also learned from some very loving and tolerant people, both thumpers and not how to live life on lifes terms and that is what I love to take away from a meeting.
Great topic Irish, I have gained a lot from it as I am sure others have.
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
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Good point about humour while thumping the BB, Taz.
My sponsor is hard core BB and has a great sense of humour and is not self-righteous or anything like that.
Now I think about it most people in the meetings I go to are actually pretty humble and I rarely have to tune anyone out, lol.
My sponsor is hard core BB and has a great sense of humour and is not self-righteous or anything like that.
Now I think about it most people in the meetings I go to are actually pretty humble and I rarely have to tune anyone out, lol.
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