barb dwyer

LOL! (no challenge taken) I genuinely thought it funny.

Talk about self sabotage! thanks for the example! Good one.

'what if' is the by line of the alcoholic, I think.
I mean, if the 'what if' is scary enough,
we can justify not doing pretty much anything, right?
I better not try that 'what if' ...
Don't think that .. 'what if' ...

I only know that because I do it too.

Bella, every now and then ... I have a brain freeze and think about not drinking. Then, because I laid my foundation carefully, I remember all the suffering, loneliness, pain I both endured .. and caused ...when I drink. Drank.

Then I make myself think about all the new friends I've made, all the times people have told me I've HELPED them ... something I was rarely told when drinking, even as a bartender (yea =- 'thanks for helping me kill myself) and -

That pretty much kills the longing.

Like a couple of weeks ago ... for no reason what. so. ever.
I remembered the first time I had a really fine Port.
Christmas Eve, historical hotel. Huge fireplace. Snowing outside.

But when I thought about it further -
what I truly enjoyed about that night -
was the people I was with, the beauty of the snow,
the Sacred nature of the holiday ... and my great hair night ...

so I stopped and made myself take it even further -
to the end of my drinking.

What a buzzkill.

'what if' ....
There's other ways to enjoylife.
'what if' ...
I miss out on them by drinking.

Tazman53

Sara are you sure there is an inference, or is it something you are trying to put inbetween the lines?

You used nandm's post as an example of this inference, yet the last line of her's that you quoted says "For me the 12 Steps did it but I know others have found different ways that have worked." I bolded the part where she stated flat out that there are other ways.

I am well aware there are other ways then AA that work great, if you take a moment to read over my post you will see where I speak of my fahter being a great example that AA is not the only way to recovery.

sara I know AA, I have heard of the same thing in AA but have never seen it in my area. I have heard a couple of the old timers talking about when they were new to AA and sobriety that some of the old timers then were very much against anti-depressants and the like, thank goodness people wised up in my area.

Depression is very common amoung alcoholics as I would imagine it is with drug addicts. In my area folks in the rooms encourage each other in taking thier meds, one main reason is because according to the old timers back in the day those alcoholics who quit taking thier meds for depression wound up getting drunk again.

In my area as long as a doctor prescribes it and one is taking a med as prescribed there is no break in thier sobriety. I know in the Big Book of AA there is not a single mention of taking meds prescribed by a doctor as directed of effecting some ones sobriety.

One must always keep in mind that AA & NA both are people, people are far from perfect, I have no idea what NA's take on anti-depressants in my area is, but I can speak to AA folks in my area is on them, they are fine as long as they are doctor prescribed and taken as directed.

Not sure what individual/individuals are in my opinion misleading your sister, perhaps you could find out and talk to them.

Bella if I thought I could drink normally of course, but I am an alcoholic and as a result I am left with only 2 choices:

Drink alcoholicly
Not to drink at all.

I know where drinking takes me as an alcoholic..... Death!
I know where not drinking takes me............. Life!

I have to say though that I doubt I would get "The Cure" if suddenly scientist came up with one, why would I want to drink what at one time in my life took me to the gates of hell?

Who knows maybe I would get that cure if it made it to where alcohol once again took me where it took me when I first started to drink, but you know in just typing that sentence I realized something, sobriety and the steps have given me everything that alcohol in the beginning gave me, so why waste my time and money on a cure just to where I could drink?

nandm

I find this interesting as I was encouraged by the people I know in A.A. to seek outside help for my depression and anxiety. I have heard one person speak of any medication being wrong but they were not someone I would consider very healthy myself so I took what I could use from their statement (experience) and left the rest. Even the Big Book encourages seeking outside help, it acknowledges there are problems that the 12 Steps are not meant to deal with such as mental illness. They can help with non chemical depression but when a chemical imbalance is present it takes a chemical to correct it. I think that it takes an open mind and one that is willing to take what they can use and throw away the rest to be successful at any recovery program as none are perfect. Nor are the people in them. Abstinence does not equal mental health anymore than A.A. equals misery. I am not miserable in fact quite the opposite. A person has to realize that you can take the alcohol out of the alcoholic but that in and of itself does not change the behaviors associated with the disease. One has to work to change those and for me it has been working the 12 Steps on a daily basis in my life.

hbb

Exactly!! That was my whole point above, you have to be willing to change your attitude and be willing to give yourself wholey to AA. That's not what i was dealing with in my life with my Xa. He has a poor, poor everyone's out to get me attitude always.

Pinkcuda

I don't understand this "Wish I could still drink" you are speaking of. I can drink whenever I want. I just don't want to.
The obsession and the desire is lifted; as promised. Those who thoroughly follow the path are given this gift. I have spent years trying to drink like a normal drinker. After the definition of a normal social drinker was explained at 3-4 drinks per week I saw no point in it. Why bother? I can't drink like I used to, 3-4 drinks a week is a complete waste of time and ice water isn't near as bad as I thought it would be. It's a good life.

nandm

Are there days when my head goes to the drink? Yes, just like there are days my head says a cigarette would be good. But the difference between today and 7 years ago is the obession part. My mind thinks about it in a fleeting thought, if it does stick around longer than that I can remove it by playing the tape all the way through and remember where drinking takes me. I don't know if you have ever smoked cigarettes or not but a similar obession happens with them. The nicotine receptors in the brain go haywire and demand the brain continually think about nicotine until it gets it. I had that same type of obession with alcohol. Once it was in my head it would not leave until I drank. I have not experienced that type of obsession for nearly 7 years now. Same thing with cigarettes as I quit both at the same time. I do not wish I could drink though as I know without a doubt that I am an alcoholic and drinking is not an option that I am willing to consider. I don't know that I would live to make it back into sobriety if I did and I am not willing to find out.

Bella_Fox

That makes sense.

Yeah, social drinking? What's that? I don't even understand the point of it. I've never had a social drink -- I always drank to get drunk. Period. I don't even like the taste of most alcohol. It merely serves (served) a purpose for me.

Never smoked, no, but I've heard about how bad the addiction can get. And I know what you mean.

What happens if someone were to go out drinking every weekend, get wasted each time, and yet not have any negative consequences? Is it only the consequences that make it a problem?

(I DID have negative consequences due to my drinking -- some major ones, some minor -- but I'm just wondering.)

baggervance

Is the glass half empty or half full?I love to debate so I'll take whichever side.I know what I am.Call me whichever doesn't really matter to me.

Sara9009

Taz - We could go back and forth on this until we are 100. We can't debate what I consider to be my personal experience as a newbie being here for a month or so and reading for much longer. Around the time I came in a small batch of newbies came in with me and all but me have left because of the vibe or what they "read between the lines." I stay in contact with a couple via email. Again it's not a debate it's just my personal experience and my feelings which are not held by only myself.

As far as people's different experiences with NA it may or may not be a generality but it is what my experience is. I wasn't trying to debate what The Big Book stated just share with you my personal experience. There may be certain lines here and there that state other modalities but AA is definitely the main game in town here and it definitely shows.

Not saying people aren't welcoming and nice because I have found everyone to be absolutely that but there is definitely a strong AA Push here. When a person states the program is working for them they get 7 people saying "thanks." When someone suggests an alternative it is basically ignored by the community.

GlassPrisoner

I sometimes call myself a drunk to remind me of where I came from and to remain humble.

The minute I'm a "recovering alcoholic", I'm suddenly in the "better than" camp, and different than the rest of you. That's a dangerous place for me to go.

hbb

I've found for the most part that people in general here talk about their personal experiences and if that happens to be AA, NA or another way then so be it. From what i've read, it's all personal know how. That's how i write, my experience with my A. When i was calling MY exabf a "dry drunk" that's what HE was, i'm not labeling anyone else but some may take it that way. As they say, take what you want and leave the rest. JMHO

nandm

Sara, I respect your opinion. I do agree that probably the majority of people in this forum have utilized or currently utilize A.A. to maintain their sobriety. I think you will find though that many of us realize there are other ways to find sobriety. It just happens that a large percentage or recovering alcoholics utilize A.A. or have had experience with it.

I know my experience is that I can be overly protective of A.A. because I do feel it saved my life. I do tend to get frustrated when I see someone running A.A. down or saying it doesn't work. I agree it does not work for everyone. We are all different but I see no reason for a person to put down a program that might help someone else just because it did not work for them personally. I would not and have not put down Rational Recovery although I tried it and found it was not something that worked for me. I have heard of people who were successful with that program. I have also seen people that recovered by going back to church. My opinion is it doesn't matter how one deals with their alcohol problem as long as they deal with it.

I believe the thanks that you see regarding A.A. statements is directly related to the proportion of people who have found help through that program and make a point to be supportive of others who find success there too. One thing you will find is that many of us are supportive of all who try and recover despite what method they use.

Keep posting, and take what you can use and leave the rest. Some of us are sicker than others. I can be one of the sick ones at times myself.

Bella_Fox

Can an atheist or agnostic feel completely comfortable in A.A.? Someone who is spiritual but not religious?

NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

Bella,

Absolutely. It IS a spiritual program. I have been nurtured by my sponsor and my group to find my own HP. Nobody has asked me what it is, and nobody is forcing anything on me. I have found much growth, and expect more.

Karen

Sara9009

I definitely do not want to give the impression that I am bashing AA. I am really not intending too. I am rather stating that this community is very AA Based and people who use AA receive more support and thanks for AA replies.

If you look at some of the newbie posts where people say "Hi, I am new I don't want to go to AA but I am doing XYZ." They don't receive any thanks. When someone comes in and says "I just joined AA...etc,." Kudos abound. Not on every post of course but it is just something I have picked up on. I guess the "Thanks" for comments are almost to me like a peanut gallery kind of thing.

nandm

Completely. I am by no means religious but do consider myself spiritual. I am not knocking organized religion but my experience with it has been negative. If I had to be religious to stop drinking I would rather die drinking. That may sound harsh but my past experiences with organized religion have been harsh. I know it works for some, even some people I consider good friends but it is not for me.

nandm

I do believe the community is not intentionally biased toward A.A. I think that is basically because there seems to be a larger percentage of people who use A.A. to recover. I may be wrong but the online forums I have seen have all seemed to be very similar in that respect. That does not make it right but it happens to be a fact right now. One way to change that is to watch for those posts you are referring to and show them support by posting your thanks. I personally post thanks to anyone who I feel makes a statement that means something to me. Regardless of if it is A.A. related or not. By the way, I did not take it as you were A.A. bashing, I was making a general statement. I don't feel you have been rude about A.A. you just have posted your thoughts and asked for feedback. Nothing wrong with that.

Phillips

I like that one, nicely expressed.

-Phillips

Tazman53

Sara I have no doubt at all about your NA experiences, I have had some bad ones in AA as well, not with the AA program, but with the people. People are people, I read something and to me it says X, some one else reads it and it says Y, not really important, we express our opinions and we move on.

I agree that you are not bashing AA, I also agree that this community is also very AA based, it is a refelction of reality though, statistics back up reality, there are far more people who have found recovery in AA then in any other program, as a matter of fact more people have found recovery in AA then the total of all other recovery programs in history combined. The prior facts explain the reason for an AA slant to any forum on alcoholism.

This forum is for "Alcoholism", there is another one on "12 step support"(Mainly AA), another "Secular connections"(Non-spiritual programs), another "The Men Room" men only.

If AA for some unknown reason offends or annoys folks seeking recovery there are other forums where AA should not be discussed out of courtesy to the members of that forum. In the alcoholism forum it is for all alcoholics to:
to talk.

Sara I really do not recall anyone saying AA is the only way, it's not, evey person here knows that.

I can only share what has worked for me, I have no right to comment on what programs have worked for others because I have no experience with other programs.

Well there is one program I know from expereince does not work for me....... the "My Way" program!

BTW on the "Thanks" button, I click thanks for one of several reasons, something said that worked for me, I am simply thanking them for what they said, something said in support of me or thanking me, or something I agree with.

My hitting the thanks has nothing to do with whether or not the person who said it was AA or not.

Sara9009

Taz - I never said that people on the board say AA is the only way. I stated there was an undertone on the board that is very AA orientated. As I said before I was making an observation as a newcomer.

Again if works for you that is awesome. Whatever works for anyone even if it is talking to your vacuum cleaner. I was merely trying to give my prospective as a newbie. It's only my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I thought giving my prospective as a newbie might be helpful and perhaps give some insight into what new members are thinking or why they have left.

I don't really want to debate the "thanks" feature because I use it as well. I was merely making an observation when it is used in a certain context.