queenteree

Back to the matter of choice - am I correct in interpreting that as once a person physically detoxes from alcohol and starts working a program of some sort and has been sober, say 2 or 3 weeks, if they pick up again, that is a choice?

bugsworth

It is my opinion that after detox it then becomes a choice.

People may rationalize their actions, or minimize the danger, or make up all kinds of excuses for why it's okay to take that first drink, why it's okay to have just one. Sometimes people just refuse to think about the negative consequences of drinking because they really, really want that drink. (The same holds true for smoking. I know its killing me but I do it anyway.) It is my choice. IMO there is no blank spot where an alcoholic is unable to see that he is deliberately lifting a drink to his mouth, choosing to drink, and that he is voluntarily swallowing it. There is no blank spot where he doesn't have a choice, and can't control his hands or his mouth.
I believe learned helplessness lends itself an excuse for relapsing whenever someone craves a drink. The power lies within me, it always did.

Tazman53

I am with bugsworth, once one is beyond the physical addiction portion of it, then it is a decision whether or not one chooses to stay sober working a program or not.

A program makes the decision easier to not drink, but the alcoholic once sober is the one who decides whether or not thay have endured enough pain from thier past drinking or if they wish to test the waters again to see if they can get back that old feeling and drink like a normal person.

Once an alcoholic starts to drink again they will use every excuse in the book for why they did it again, when in reality the only one to blame is thier self, yes thier disease is telling them it is okay, but once we truly get sober it is up to us as to whether we actually listen to our disease.

nandm

Some good discussion is going on here regarding the matter of choice as it pertains to the disease topic. I am in total agreement with the last two posters.

The only difference being that in my opinion the choice to drink starts long before the first drink is picked up. One the detox period is over then it does become a matter of choice. The choice being to continue to work the program that gave them results on quitting drinking to keep their defenses strong against drinking or to let up on thier program of action which in turn lets their defenses weaken and can ultimately lead to picking up that drink.

This is more a matter of sematics probably. I just believe that the choice to go back to drinking is tied to the choice of letting go or letting up on working their program. It is pretty much the same thing though as it ultimatly has the same results.

Thanks for the discussion.

PaperDolls

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

My take on it.........I try not to think about it. It makes my brain hurt. I just know I can't drink like a normal person.

That is all.....carry on.

GlassPrisoner

Except, maybe, for that pesky obsession of the mind

That said, I'm with those that say "who cares what we call it".

Zencat

Yea that deal, the possible brain structure and chemical changes due to alcohol adaptation resulting in soma/psyche rearrangement. whoa, bummer fo sure.

justjo

As your 'normie' this is where I get confused - This topic can be quite debatable depending the individual circumstance it seems.

Some say - a disease/addiction (the person once an alcoholic has no choice in it)

Some say - If they could hang up the bottle and say no not today they would, but they cant?

Some say - you have to get to your rock bottom? to even contemplate recovery?

Some say - It depends on your level of pain before you can consider to give up.

Some say - Now lets compare it to all other diseases ?

My question;
If we have a disease with so much pain, given to everyone on each side of the fence, then why cant the family have that person taken into medical care, recovery programs to help stop that person from dying. And I know what you are going to say, You cant, that person needs to want to.
If a person has any other type of disease and they can get medical help, you would choose it, wouldnt you.
Then, why do some alcoholics never choose to get help? Like the pain? If you leg was bleeding, you would get it looked at.
Ok Im probably off on another post here, but it gets confusing.

CarolD

Yes Jo..
It's confusing because we are sharing our own
perspectives and experiences.
Heck...even the professional "experts" don't agree.

And we alcoholics love to share so we discuss.
...I doubt that anyone has changed their mind
regardless of how often we debate.

I personally don't care what alcoholism is
hex...disease..malady..sin..genetic...immoral...le arned behavior
I found my solution with God and AA.

I hope everyone finds a way to live in the joy of recovery.
:ghug3

:

justjo

Thanks Carol,
You made me feel better. Im the same, putting alcoholism into a category or giving it a name/label (disease) doesnt make it any easier or make me feel any better. I just want my as to live (know I cant make it happen, but I just wish there was more help or someway of getting her out of this hell.) I detach, then attach, detach, then attach. I today, cant speak to her because the absolutely horrific madness of this (what ever we call it) is too much to bear. We have pyschiatric hospitals for madness here (help I guess and family can put them there to at least try) why cant we? Just because it is an addiction and apparently they need to want to stop (we just turn the other way, heck!) OK im sounding like a crazy person and being selfish in this thread, Im sorry.
Just have to remember what this is about in this thread.

justjo

I thought about this a bit more. I guess if I look at it this way, it helps; no matter what we call it.

In the last 18 months my aunty got Bowel Cancer, now terminal and to the liver.
In the last 12 months my brother got Bowel Cancer and they said they got to it just in time, otherwise...
In the last 12 months my mum got Bowel Cancer, she was lucky, in the early stages and they removed it.
:praying

CarolD

Jo...
Prayers for you and your family

Signal30

People who do not believe that alcoholism is a disease, in my opinion are either...

A) They just simply do not understand alcoholism.

B) Are alcoholics, and are on the denial/defensive.


Tom

justjo

You are probably right Signal, I try to understand and have spent alot of time doing it, but will admit I dont understand completely. Many have helped me here. I dont think for me its a matter of believing one thing or another, I guess for me, it is the craving desire to see my as and ds well.

Tazman53

justjo my wifes best friend is a diabetic, she continues to eat what ever she wants to, she does take her meds, but she chooses to continue to gain weight even though she has had a sore on her toe that has not healed in 2 years. She knows she needs to lose weight, but she choses to not exercise or cut back on her eating.

She is in and out of the hospital due to her refusal to do what she needs to do. She knows she is a diabetic, she knows she needs to loose weight, she knows she needs to execise, every time I see her she has gained weight, today she can barely walk, yet she continues to choose to do what she does.

Putting her into a treatment program would only help her as long as she is in it, now if she put herself into a program that would be a different story, that would be her making the decision that she wants to live, she is killing herself, I see it every time I see her and it hurts me and it kills my wife! Every one in her family knows she needs to do something, but they also know that until she is wanting to do something there is nothing they can do but pray. She is an adult and must live or die by her own decisions.

justjo

That was exactly what I needed to hear Taz, thanks. Ok, I got it and I think I see it. I remember many years ago, I was thin and I gained tremendous amounts of weight and was very depressed. I guess when I think about it, the depression was stopping me from getting past what I needed to do. I actually hated being depressed and fat but I loved my own misery somehow. No diets worked and that was probably because I didnt want it to.
A few years ago, I was fed up with my life and I went on a Weight loss programme where you had to visit each week. The fact, I could see the results quickly and the weight fell off gave the confidence to keep going. It was very hard in the beginning. Now if I slip back to the 'eating game' I get right back on to task.

I guess Taz, the same goes for all other addictions hey? You always seem to know the right thing to say.

Tazman53

In my dreams I do!!! LOL

justjo I continue to try and change for the better today, when I was drinking I just did not give a damn! I quit smoking one year to the day of quitting drinking, I figured "Hey I was killing myself drinking & smoking, only half the job is done, time to quit smoking!" I am not sure if I am willing to give up my chocolate yet though! LOL

Budfrog

I think we've been here before:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...m-disease.html

IMO alcoholism is a chronic addiction and should be viewed in the same manner as other drug related problems. Call it a disease if you will but it is distinctly differant from most conventional diseases in the respect that it is self inflicted.

It really doesn't matter how people classify alcoholism so long as they are aware of how destructive it can be to those who are addicted and are given the necessary support to deal with it.

CarolD

How about some facts?
I'll post the link as it's too long for here.

Source:
United States Government
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa30.htm

Next?

Tazman53

Thanks for the link Carol, looks to me as though the ICD & WHO both officially classify it as a disease, opinions can be formed by scientific facts, personal opinions or both.

I base my beleif on both scientific facts and personal opinions, some people choose to ignore scientific facts and base thier beliefs simply on their personal opinions, but as many have said disease as science believes, or self inflicted weakness of will, it does not matter, alcoholism kills unless one stops drinking.

Not everyone can become an alcoholic by drinking. (Scientific fact)

Everyone can become a drug addict by using addictive drugs. (Scientific fact)