DoingWell

No matter what I say or how I relate and emphasize what works for me, I hear the same thing over and over "Your not doing it right", "Maybe you were not an alcholic", You are powerless, etc. etc. etc.
MAYBE I could relate more with all of that HAD I kept going, but I did not. I chose to get off the ride before I got to the top of the rollercoaster that's all I was saying.
I do NOT use God as a front. I stated that I most CERTAINLY believe in God. I get to church when I can, I just chose a different path to get sober, my way is not to say it's the right way, it's just my way, it works for me. IF and when it doesn't I will make changes, I am very open minded and have no problem with others talking of their success with AA.
I am doing well and I'm very happy with the life changes I have made for myself. I'm happy getting my high from the gym and I'm happy with educating myself each and every day with this disease I will live with. I have bad days like everyone else, I have a support system and I see a therapist (I'm also bipolar).
Again, my way may not be your way, but it doesn't make it wrong.

DoingWell

Very nice to hear someone understands what I'm saying. IT IS because I watched many people in my life go through what you have that I got to that point. My xhb's crack addiction brought me and my family down to the gutters of hell. I watched my sister's heroin addiction rip my parents heart right out. It was after all of this that I said "hmmmm"
But like every addict I ever met I had to go through those little tests. I would tell myself..you know what. let me see if I had a problem and I would say to myself, no booze for 2 days. And by george I could do it..BUT those two days all I could think about was when those two days were up.. LOL I obsessed with it, I would say when the two days were up "See, I didn't drink, I don't have a problem" and pop open a cold one and say.. AHHHH
It was mind "f----ng" all the way.

Emimily

the only things i have any control over are my actions and my reactions. i am powerless over what happens after my first drink, but it's my decision whether or not to pick up the drink. and all the "rock bottoms" you spoke of initially, like losing house/job/family/etc. are yets for me. i am a "high bottom" drunk, and thank god for that. but-it's not worth it for me to prove myselfa real alcoholic by getting a DUI or killing someone else or myself. can't go to AA if you're in the ground.

that's what i told my sponsee when she struggled with powerlessness... you've got power over your actions and your reactions. the rest is up to the universe.

Tazman53

doingwell I do have a question if you don't mind, who is using God as a front?

DoingWell

I am no authority to say that anyone else uses God as a front. I was responding to this:

I'm not sure it was aimed at me or not, maybe I was being oversensitve or defensive.

Cathy31

Nakur

For me, I eventually found step 1 easy to do because I AM powerless over alcohol once I ingest it. There is a part in the big book (read it!) that talks about us having a phsyical allergy...our metabolism works differently being alcoholics..we develop a physical CRAVING when we ingest alcohol ethanol...read the doctors opinion in the big book...on top of that we have a mental obsession - one that is clera in your post - that this time it will be different...we will evenutally drink NORMALLY even though there is NO evidence to support this!!! that's called the mental obsession...whta I did...I prayed for willingness and today almost 18 months sober the promises (also in the big book, google them) are coming true for me I LOVE my meetings have made great friends and I'm sober and I wish I could help other struggling alcoholics see that there IS a solution! It's not easy but it works.

Don't see YOURSELF as powerless...see that you are powerless ONCE you put alcohol in your body...i know for me, after a few drinks, all bets were off!!! i would do ANYTHING to get more! (drive drunk, etc)

Today the obsession to drink normally has left me - thanks to the AA program and the grace of my Higher Power.

Good luck - go to a meeting, pick up the big book, allow yourself the benefit of being welcomed into this amazing fellowship. I know that you will not regret it.

Give it a try. It's amazing.

Cathy31
x

Tazman53

Doingwell that was not aimed at you, (I do not think it was) that was aimed in the direction of folks saying:

That AA is religous, it is not, it is a spiritual program that even Athiest have used for recovery.

There are those that see the word God and immediately think religion, if they read the book Alcoholics Anonymous they will see that the word God and a Higher Power of our own understanding are interchangeable and has nothing to do with ANY religion.

Jfanagle

I can't help but wonder where the concept comes from that when a person goes to an AA meeting they give up their own thoughts, ability to reason, or whatever will power they may have? I didn't and I have been a very active member of AA for the past 8 years, during which my life has improved and I am sober again today and for those past 8 years including weekends!

For me AA is a TOOL, not a SENTENCE. I continue to reason and apply my thoughts to my recovery. I simply utilize those ideas that are given to me in meetings when they are applicable. I have disregarded some really strange advice just as I don't believe every television ad I watch. AA is not a monolithic force that governs my every action; it is a collection of ideas and suggestions that hundreds of thousands of people who have my same problem with alcohol have come up with during their struggles and desire to have a better life.

Are there jerks, crackpots, and just plain fools in AA? Absolutely, but there are also some very wise and successful folks who I am proud to call friends and with whom I would have socialized had I not met them in AA, but somewhere else in life. These people have given me food for thought that has definitely made my life exponentially better.

I have always seen the first step as an admission TO MYSELF, that alcohol has become a problem in my life and that when I allow it to run rampant I am left with a life that is unmanageable. When I don't allow it to interfere I have a very good and satisfying life. When the talking heads on CNN tell me something I don't just accept it in it's totality I try and use my mind and my experiences to determine just how I can use that information in my life. Why would I approach AA any differently?

AA provides for ME a place where a particular weakness in my life fabric is being addressed by folks with similar problems. It makes sense to me to attend meetings with these folks because I MIGHT learn something or HEAR something that I hadn't previously considered in my previous attempts, and there were many, to stop drinking.

Like I said I walked into AA 8 years ago and I haven't had a drink since, but more importantly I AM HAPPIER. I go for that reason, I will always welcome anyone who comes in the doors and will do anything I can to HELP them if they really want help. I know neither I nor anyone else I have seen has ever DEMANDED that anyone stay who didn't feel that AA offered what they needed.

I had a huge problem with alcohol and my life. I still had ALL the stuff the day I walked in to AA, I just didn't have ME. I looked around and I still do to this day, searching for answers to make my life BETTER. I tend to seek advice from people WHO ARE SOBER FOR A LONG TIME and follow SOME of their suggestions. People with a few weeks, or even days are LESS LIKELY to offer PROVEN MEATHODS. They may have all sorts of THEORIES, but I am going to stay with RESULTS.

AA IS NOT the only way, it is just mine and I am not going to give it up based on my experience. As for POWERLESS: I DON"T HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM AS LONG AS I DON'T DRINK!

Jon

Jfanagle

Post Script:

My attorney just emailed me this article assumed I might be interested.

NO ONE CAN FORCE YOU INTO AA!

Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, September 8, 2007

Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that "requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment," the court said. "While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state."

The 12 steps suggested for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that "a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" and a promise to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." They also call for prayer and meditation.

Friday's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father, Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug sentence in November 2000.

A Buddhist, he objected to religiously oriented drug treatment in prison, sued state officials over the issue and told Hawaii parole authorities just before his release that he would object to any condition that included a treatment program with religious content.

When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to attend a Salvation Army treatment program that included participation in Narcotics Anonymous meetings, the court said.

Inouye showed up but refused to participate, dropped out after two months, and, for that and other reasons, was sent back to prison in November 2001 for violating his parole.

After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori and others for violating his constitutional rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending, and his son took over the case.

A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying officers are required to pay damages for violating constitutional rights only when those rights are already clearly established.

But the appeals court said Nanamori should have known in 2001 that coerced participation in a religion-based program was unconstitutional because eight state and federal courts had ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed that a parolee has a right to be assigned to a secular treatment program.



I can't help but wonder if Mr. Inouye died from drug related problems?

Tazman53

Jon that was an excellent post, you go for many of the same reasons I go to AA.

I take what I need from the accumulated ESH of hundreds of thousands of sober alcoholics in AA since 1939 and leave the rest. I have a lot more faith in that kind of knowledge base then in my own experience or that of someone who decides to write a book or pull a new program out of his butt!!!

In other words the accumulated knowledge base in AA vs anything else out there is like an elephant vs a fly.

I am not alone, I would be foolish to turn my back on that kind of accumulated knowledge. I am almost 54 years old and just recently realized that I do not know it all and will aks for help and advice when needed.

DoingWell

Anytime anyone says they prefer not to go to AA, most people assume it's an attack.
I applaud anyone on their recovery journey no matter how they get there.

CarolD

My drinking put me on the edge of insanity.

The outside me looked just fine.
Inside I was empty ... cold ... dead.

Once I added alcohol ...my brain sizzled and fizzled.


So...I was then unable to be rational.

That to me is powerless and unmanageable.

Don't want AA? Ok...don't go.

nandm

DoingWell, you have an interesting take on A.A.
I agree that knowledge is power but I also have the knowledge to realize that I am not all powerful. There are many things that are more powerful than I. I am powerless over whether or not the sun will rise, a thunderstorm will hit, the waves will roll in to the beach, a friend will die, other people's actions, etc.... The best way I have found to describe what Step One means when it says we are "powerless over alcohol" is found in "Stools and Bottles" page 29. I am powerless over how my physical body responds to alcohol. I am also powerless in a mental and spiritual state once that alcohol enters my body. The only way I can stop that powerlessness is to maintain a strong mental and spiritual condition that keeps me away from picking up the first drink.

I have never felt belittle, shamed, or guilted in order to recover. What brought me to A.A. was the desire to stop drinking as I found that drinking for me was just a slow suicide that was killing not only me but everyone around me. I could no longer drink but did not know how to live life without drinking. It was not about shame or guilt. I leave religion out of my recovery. I was brought up with religion and found it to be a very negative experience, a lot of thou shalt nots, and you have to be perfect or you are not good enough. I do maintain spirituality in my recovery as I believe that a constant contact with a God of my understanding is essential for a healthy spirit.

I totally agree. For me that first step was admitting I had a problem with alcohol and making the choice to find help for that problem.

I agree with your above statement. Alcoholism is not a MORAL or sinful disease. I am not a bad person because I am an alcoholic. In many ways I am blessed as it has provided me with a program for living that helps me to continue to strive to improve who I am. Not because I am a horrible person but because that is growth.

I am glad that you have found a way to stop drinking without A.A. There are other ways. For me it was the only one that has worked for any length of time and given me any sense of peace.

Tazman53

jfanagle good article and I concur with what the courts are saying, but I have to say that if a person is court ordered to a drug or alcohol rehab program and they want a secular one and the area they live in does not have one what happens then?

To me one of the biggest things AA has going for it among a lot of other things is I can travel almost the entire world and find AA, this is very far from being the case with other programs.

Tazman53

I do as well, my father with no program went to his grave sober for 19 years with no program, my brother quit years ago on his own. My son is making a go of it on his own, the difference between me and them? Maybe me drinking for at a minimum of 20 years longer then any of them.

If some one gets and stays sober by kissing a goat every morning I say more power to them.

I am not stupid, there are people in AA who feel that AA is the only way any one can get sober, but all they have to do is a little bit of research and they will find that both Bill Wilson & Dr. Bob acknowledged other ways of getting sober and both continued looking for other methods to help alcoholics get and stay sober because they knew AA did not work for every one.

If every alcoholic person that died had the root cause of thier death put on their death certificate there probably be more people who die from the side effects of alcoholism then people who recover from alcoholism with or without a program.

DoingWell

I don't think that matters much. If you read the entire case from start to finish, Mr. Inouye was open to ANY non religious program or treatment, he was not denying treatment he was expressing his civil right. This case isn't about courts ordering treatment, it's about them taking into account a person's liberty to freely choose or not choose religious beliefs. The courts have stated the probation officer is NOT entitled to immunity as he should have been aware that ordering Mr. Inouye to any religiously based treatment was a violation under the findings of the Supreme Court.
His probation officer could have put him in Outpatient counseling, group counseling, etc, Probation officers hands are tied when it comes to this because of MONEY. It would cost money if they supplied him with a group therapy or individual therapy treatment, so what does probation do? They go for the freebie as it costs them nothing. For some people the type of treatment they choose is a matter of life or death.
I can fully understand people's thoughts on AA saving their lives, I respect that, why can't likewise the other side be respected for their input.

It makes no difference to me if AA proclaims not to be religious, it's the way it is perceived by each individual that matters.

I consider myself to have a very open mind. Yes it is QUITE possible that I have never found the right AA meeting and I have never stated I would never give it another shot. Right now, today I am happy with the route I have chosen and happy with my life the way it is right now.. today.
Tomorrow I could feel completely different, but tomorrow is not here yet.

Jfanagle

Doingwell,
That was a whimsical thought at the bottom, not a legal opinion. I haven't read the case; only saw the Chronicle article on the case. I assume that you have, as I reread the article and didn't see any reference to Mr. Inouye' s willingness to attend ANY non religious program. I am as much an advocate of individual rights as the next fellow. The posting of the article was to "inform" those who cared to make note that the one area where attendance MIGHT ACTUALLY have be a matter of coercion, was no longer allowed under the law.

As to the statement; "It makes no difference to me if AA proclaims not to be religious, it's the way it is perceived by each individual that matters." Perception is beyond anyone’s control except the individual who is doing the perceiving. If your perception is one of a "religious organization" and that isn't to your liking, don't walk in the door. That is the gist of this whole thread as I see it. Each individual is free to chose if they even attend AA, or certainly how they perceive AA and the references to a higher power. Again I have to ask why is it important to those who chose not to attend AA to point out the fact that they don't want to attend. The most definitive statement regarding that would be in my mind simply not to attend.

If I have been unclear, which I hope I haven't, there is NO REQUIREMENT to attend AA if you don't like it, don't need it, or plain just don't understand why any of us do, don't show up. It is however, our responsibility as members to have a seat available if you do come. The door is never closed.
The fact is that as an active participant of AA I want above all else to make sure that the fellowship of AA remains OPEN to anyone who wants to attend and that "the only requirement for membership in AA is a DESIRE to stop drinking."

Best wishes which ever path you chose.
I honor all people who honor all people.
Jon

boogiedan

hi all just seen post!!!
im dan 30yrs old new ish on here..
and just signed in quikl;y for littlle visit
and cheked out new post's!
funny i spotted this post first
in 10mins im goin 2 an AA meeting
in yorkshirre UK
ive been attendin AA for well over a yr now
also my father is in AA he's over 10yrs sober an belives in the programme
he also does voluntery 1day per week prison visits(passin the mess on he sez)
anyhows i respect AA and more inportantly any1 who's on any kind of recovery
basically im a christian (not the world'ly sense or view)
and i agree with steps 1,2 and 3 of AA and as a whole AA i suppose saves lives
however i give praise 2 yeshua jesus and ive mentioned him as my higherpower
a fewtimes in past! bad mistake!!! they look at me like wolves
arrrrrrrrrrrrr its like haaaaa....
anyhows just a quik post from me
lastly if i gotta be honest i go 2 AA meets because im an alcoholic/other addictions as well ie smokin dope,cocaine alll in binges
and basically with belief in my heart and daily changing my life with JC
well lets just say lifes OK hard an tough but all will be OK
rite all off 2 my AA meet..
will sign back in forums afta meet for a bit

tekcare all an
god bless
dan30 uk

CarolD

Hmm...

IMO no one should be made to attend AA.
It is not AA's intent to be a monitering tool.

Some groups do not sign slips....this is decided
by a Group Concious.


It's simple to fake the slip signing
if you are not brain dead...

However...this threads topic is why a
member of SR chooses not to attend AA.

This is the Alcoholism Forum ...
open to all who question.

Fluttering

"The only requirement for membership is a DESIRE" to stop drinking."

There are many who attend that have no sponsor and do not work the stpes..That is the use of their own will,

We will keep a seat open for you ..For me for over 21 years I have found this is the one and only thing that has worked. tried numerous other things..

AA did not take anything away from me...It gave so much more to me. If it had been a religous program I would have run right back out the door and ewould still be running today...[more than likely dead]...It is indeed SpirituAL There is a huge diference between the two

You don't want to go...DOn't..We respect that...All we ask is the same respect in return.....It works for us and has worked from its inception beginning with just 2 drunks and is now world wide....Live and Let Live...is just one of our many slogans...I believe in it.. it saved my life as well as my sanity.