What does it mean when AA says Relapse is part of recovery and can help?
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
My husband did not use this quote or anything as an excuse to relapse. He fully accepts all blame on himself, said he should have made the call instead. I was just curious about it, that's because when we both read it, we didn't get it (and that was last month or so). My daughter (who is a nurse) and my therapist also told me that. I still will not be able to fully trust for a long time, maybe never, but I am going to AlAnon (went Tuesday nite and will go again on Friday).
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: green hills of Vermont, USA
Posts: 251
Yes, Teree, I certainly hope he will go there and admit his slip. And I don't know quite how to say this in a way that will not offend you, but the wisdom of the program says that the alcoholic does best with the help of his/her fellow alcoholics. In Alanon, significant others can and do learn to "butt out" of the alcoholic's recovery. Of course there is still concern and support, but one learns to give room.
There is a chapter in AA's Big Book addressed originally to wives, but of course meant for all significant others. I'm not going to try to quote it - I think it's best read for oneself, anyway. It does explain that non-alcoholics ("co-dependants" in some pschyo-speak) have usually had to pick up the slack for the drinker and there is naturally a relationship shift in when the drinker goes back to sober living. The alcoholic has had to be treated like a child.... and then is no longer a child. Well, you get the drift. It can be very helpful if the non-alcoholic partner can back off in many ways, like constant monitoring, distrust, etc. That's why I keep recommending Alanon. I hope others can explain, oo. I imagine that's the focus of the Friends and Family Forum.... but I know you came here specifically to get a take on your situation from alcoholics, so I'm trying!
Best to you from the Snowgoose.
There is a chapter in AA's Big Book addressed originally to wives, but of course meant for all significant others. I'm not going to try to quote it - I think it's best read for oneself, anyway. It does explain that non-alcoholics ("co-dependants" in some pschyo-speak) have usually had to pick up the slack for the drinker and there is naturally a relationship shift in when the drinker goes back to sober living. The alcoholic has had to be treated like a child.... and then is no longer a child. Well, you get the drift. It can be very helpful if the non-alcoholic partner can back off in many ways, like constant monitoring, distrust, etc. That's why I keep recommending Alanon. I hope others can explain, oo. I imagine that's the focus of the Friends and Family Forum.... but I know you came here specifically to get a take on your situation from alcoholics, so I'm trying!
Best to you from the Snowgoose.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
What an excellent thread. Admittance to closed meetings is for those with a desire to stop drinking. I went to meetings after leaving the bar for years and members knew and welcomed me in spite of it. Over the doors it said, "Keep coming back". As long as the drunk is not obstructive he or she is always welcome.
Your question concerning relapse will raise more than eyebrows and I look forward to the responses you get. First, who is responsible, the drunk or alcoholism? When I look at most questions today concerning Alcoholism, I must first answer the responsibility part.
Your question concerning relapse will raise more than eyebrows and I look forward to the responses you get. First, who is responsible, the drunk or alcoholism? When I look at most questions today concerning Alcoholism, I must first answer the responsibility part.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: media, pa
Posts: 243
Originally Posted by queenteree 
My husband did not use this quote or anything as an excuse to relapse. He fully accepts all blame on himself, said he should have made the call instead. I was just curious about it, that's because when we both read it, we didn't get it (and that was last month or so). My daughter (who is a nurse) and my therapist also told me that. I still will not be able to fully trust for a long time, maybe never, but I am going to AlAnon (went Tuesday nite and will go again on Friday).
If you think about alcoholism as a disease, then relapse rates are similar to other chronic diseases, like diabetes and heart disease. People need to make adjustments in their lifestyles to combat their respective disease. However, like you said, it's not an excuse to have one last drink, or eat 3 large eclairs. But relapse is a reality for all types of diseases, and it's no different for addictions.
Dave
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
I have my opinion as to where the phrase you mentioned came from. In the 1970's a national treatment center chain was growing in America. They were literally or so it seemed, in every city and community hospital in the country; I should know I was in 16 or 17 of them. This corporation liked to sing their own praises for their success rate early on. They advertised a 92% success rate of one year recovery from beverage alcohol. I might be wrong in my facts on the percentage; it could have been 90%. This treatment corporation had standing acceptance for admittance into their centers from Employee Assistance Programs scattered across the national industrial base; automobile, steel, etc. Many drunks tailored their vacations in the Midwestern states to go to CA, AZ or FL for golf, drink and treatment and would go to treatment several times in the same year. In order to maintain the flow of drunks and ultimately money into the treatment corporation coffers, an advertised high success rate was vital. So, what the company did was to call every ex-patient after one year of completing their inpatient program and asked the individual if they were still sober.
To the point of the comment, relapse was never a part of recovery until the treatment industry coined the phrase. The term “slip” was used extensively in AA to describe the drunk that just didn’t get it and decided to drink again after not drinking for some period of time. Relapse was the clinical term for a return to the active disease and a simple answer for a lack of reasoning and success in recovery. Everyone around the drunk wants a patent answer to the drinking problem and they want it now and the insurance providers of the day wanted the most. It seemed good logic to have the Disease Concept and to equate relapse with recovery because the real story was that less than 2% of the folks who went through those 28 days programs were still continuously sober one year later. It took another 10 years before employers and insurers figured out that inpatient treatment processes were not what it had been advertised as. The mentioned treatment corporation needed a means to keep the flow of patients coming from businesses and with the light finally being shed on their inability to keep people sober, the natural and almost ingenious way to justify not failing was to say that relapse was a part of recovery. If you drink after a period of not drinking, you simply were not done drinking. This statement was too bold, too harsh to be true. If relapse were a part of recovery, then everyone involved, the drunk, the employer, the insurer, the family and the courts, everyone knew that the responsibility for another drink after a period of sobriety now laid at the feet of the “disease” and not the drunk.
To the point of the comment, relapse was never a part of recovery until the treatment industry coined the phrase. The term “slip” was used extensively in AA to describe the drunk that just didn’t get it and decided to drink again after not drinking for some period of time. Relapse was the clinical term for a return to the active disease and a simple answer for a lack of reasoning and success in recovery. Everyone around the drunk wants a patent answer to the drinking problem and they want it now and the insurance providers of the day wanted the most. It seemed good logic to have the Disease Concept and to equate relapse with recovery because the real story was that less than 2% of the folks who went through those 28 days programs were still continuously sober one year later. It took another 10 years before employers and insurers figured out that inpatient treatment processes were not what it had been advertised as. The mentioned treatment corporation needed a means to keep the flow of patients coming from businesses and with the light finally being shed on their inability to keep people sober, the natural and almost ingenious way to justify not failing was to say that relapse was a part of recovery. If you drink after a period of not drinking, you simply were not done drinking. This statement was too bold, too harsh to be true. If relapse were a part of recovery, then everyone involved, the drunk, the employer, the insurer, the family and the courts, everyone knew that the responsibility for another drink after a period of sobriety now laid at the feet of the “disease” and not the drunk.
Old & Sober Member of AA
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nursing Home in Brick, New Jersey
Posts: 5,174
I, too, can never remember reading anything like that. What I have heard is that "relapse is not a pre-requisite for recovery"...I've known folks who've come into AA, stayed sober until the day they died...I've known some who relapsed after many years of sobriety (sometimes they even managed to make it back into the rooms)...sadly, I've known some who never, ever managed to get sober.
I once sponsored a gal who had "been around AA" for many years, could quote all the AA literature, made meetings regularly, and even went out on speaking commitments. She would "relapse" on a regular basis, and proudly celebrate 90 days on a regular basis. She could "talk the talk", but she sure couldn't "walk the walk"...and, she was sorely trying my patience. Finally, when I smelled alcohol on her while we were at a meeting, I pointed out that "one day at a time" meant staying sober one day at a time, not drinking one day at a time. She promptly fired me as her sponsor, and continued on her merry way. I haven't seen her in more than 20 years, and wonder if she ever did manage to get sober.
I tend to agree with you, Taz.
I hope and pray your husband will "get the message" and get sober; but, I fear right now he is putting his own spin on what he read as an excuse to keep drinking.
I once sponsored a gal who had "been around AA" for many years, could quote all the AA literature, made meetings regularly, and even went out on speaking commitments. She would "relapse" on a regular basis, and proudly celebrate 90 days on a regular basis. She could "talk the talk", but she sure couldn't "walk the walk"...and, she was sorely trying my patience. Finally, when I smelled alcohol on her while we were at a meeting, I pointed out that "one day at a time" meant staying sober one day at a time, not drinking one day at a time. She promptly fired me as her sponsor, and continued on her merry way. I haven't seen her in more than 20 years, and wonder if she ever did manage to get sober.
the shame and the guilt of relapsing combined with active alcoholism again might just keep me from ever walking back into the very rooms that have saved my life.
I hope and pray your husband will "get the message" and get sober; but, I fear right now he is putting his own spin on what he read as an excuse to keep drinking.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
“It’s part of the learning process that leads to recovery."--Afraid2Suceed
BINGO! It could not have been said more succinctly. Drinking in excess also leads to recovery. The whole process is a pathway and when we have embarked on the recovery portion that is when total abstinence evolves into recovery. We are recovering and or recovered alcoholics, depending upon how you chose to describe yourself, when we no longer drink and have made the changes in our lives that allow us to live without alcohol.
Thanks Afraid.
Jon
BINGO! It could not have been said more succinctly. Drinking in excess also leads to recovery. The whole process is a pathway and when we have embarked on the recovery portion that is when total abstinence evolves into recovery. We are recovering and or recovered alcoholics, depending upon how you chose to describe yourself, when we no longer drink and have made the changes in our lives that allow us to live without alcohol.
Thanks Afraid.
Jon
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
written in one of the AA books that relapse is part of recovery.
"positive experience toward abstinence and a lifetime of recovery.
A relapse brings truth to what we hear repeatedly in meetings - "Don't take that first drink!" "
If your AH is using that to 'justify' his relapse, I would make a bet there's more to come.
I hope you are finding some help for you with Alanon.
Love and hugs,
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
No queenteree, he is not "screwing up" as you put it. Relapse is part of any chronic, progressive dissase. Very few people get sober their first attempt. Granted relapse is not required, however, it does happen frequently.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
I think you've got a good point there afraid2succeed. Alot of it is about making adjustments to ones lifestyle. I'm slowly learning to avoid the situations that might be a trigger for my illness. The other thing I have to get into my thick skull is to remember that I simply cannot drink. Whether I want to call myself an alcoholic, an old soak or a sot is neither here nor there, the fact is I can't drink one drink without it doing me serious harm one way or another. (Maybe I should write it on the ceiling above my bed or embroider it and hang it on the wall - but then it might become meaningless after awhile) I think I need to consciously remember and think on it if only for a couple of minutes every day.
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
Snowgoose,
"Yes, Teree, I certainly hope he will go there and admit his slip. And I don't know quite how to say this in a way that will not offend you, but the wisdom of the program says that the alcoholic does best with the help of his/her fellow alcoholics. In Alanon, significant others can and do learn to "butt out" of the alcoholic's recovery. Of course there is still concern and support, but one learns to give room"
I totally agree with this and I have butt out of his recovery. Sometimes we both spoke of our thoughts regarding our respective recoveries, but I always leave his recovery to him. Even when I saw he bought the O'Douls, I said "I'm not butting into your recovery but from what I've read and learned, non-alcoholic beer is best left to non-alcoholics." He told me not to worry about it, I said OK and he went on a binge. I would say that is butting out. And I respect your comments, they do not offend me at all, they help me understand. Thanks.
Teree
"Yes, Teree, I certainly hope he will go there and admit his slip. And I don't know quite how to say this in a way that will not offend you, but the wisdom of the program says that the alcoholic does best with the help of his/her fellow alcoholics. In Alanon, significant others can and do learn to "butt out" of the alcoholic's recovery. Of course there is still concern and support, but one learns to give room"
I totally agree with this and I have butt out of his recovery. Sometimes we both spoke of our thoughts regarding our respective recoveries, but I always leave his recovery to him. Even when I saw he bought the O'Douls, I said "I'm not butting into your recovery but from what I've read and learned, non-alcoholic beer is best left to non-alcoholics." He told me not to worry about it, I said OK and he went on a binge. I would say that is butting out. And I respect your comments, they do not offend me at all, they help me understand. Thanks.
Teree
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: green hills of Vermont, USA
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by queenteree
[snip] I totally agree with this and I have butt out of his recovery. Sometimes we both spoke of our thoughts regarding our respective recoveries, but I always leave his recovery to him. Even when I saw he bought the O'Douls, I said "I'm not butting into your recovery but from what I've read and learned, non-alcoholic beer is best left to non-alcoholics." He told me not to worry about it, I said OK and he went on a binge. I would say that is butting out. And I respect your comments, they do not offend me at all, they help me understand. Thanks.
Teree
Teree
Warm wishes from the Snowgoose.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 2,060
What I've heard in AA from oldtimers regarding relapse:
No such thing. Its a willful decision to drink. Period. He did not "slip" or "relapse" He wanted to drink and he drank.
I have also heard that the drinking again may be necsessary for a person to hit real hard bottom so they know without a reservation that drinking is not an option ever again.
The point being that your husband seems to want to drink more than he wants sobriety. The pain of drinking has not outwighed the pleasure of drinking.
You culd get very tired focusing so much of your energy on this problem. May I suggest you take care of yourself, get some distance from the situation and turn him over to his Higher Power? Really let him go. Its hard but its also hard living like this, always thinking about and wanting to manage another person's recovery.
No such thing. Its a willful decision to drink. Period. He did not "slip" or "relapse" He wanted to drink and he drank.
I have also heard that the drinking again may be necsessary for a person to hit real hard bottom so they know without a reservation that drinking is not an option ever again.
The point being that your husband seems to want to drink more than he wants sobriety. The pain of drinking has not outwighed the pleasure of drinking.
You culd get very tired focusing so much of your energy on this problem. May I suggest you take care of yourself, get some distance from the situation and turn him over to his Higher Power? Really let him go. Its hard but its also hard living like this, always thinking about and wanting to manage another person's recovery.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
I've never read in the literature that relapse is a part of recovery. Relapses, slips, etc. are a part of my disease, but not a part of my recovery. However, relapse led to the recovery I have today, which is a far cry from any sort of recovery I have had before. I have more in my recovery today at almost 6 months, than I had during the 7 years of dry drunkeness I had before relapse. My experience is that relapse took me to that hopeless place where I couldn't drink and I couldn't not drink. When I couldn't imagine life with or without alcohol, that was when I became willing to go to any lengths to get sober. What I am seeing is that you are spending an awful lot of time and energy on your husband's disease. Alanon would be an excellent place for you to start taking the focus off your husband's disease, and start focusing on YOUR recovery. You can spend 24 hours a day spinning your wheels on the alcoholic's disease and still be where you started. Why not do something different?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Teree
We can choose to go or we can choose to stay...It is a concsous choice.
For me ..I know I do not have another come back..I make a choice each and every day to stay.
Relapse is an option...but not for me
"All we really have is a daily reprieve based on our spiritual condition" [AA Big Book pg 85]
Page 34 refers to "Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends on the extent to which he has alreasdy lost the p[ower to choose....the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it--this uttter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish"
On page 35... it talks of the "mental states that precede a drink"
Taken by themselves it may sound like it is a "normal" thing to relapse...however there are other sections in the book that state:
"Lack of Power is our delimma" and "Alcohole is but a symtom" "Curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reeasoning." When it is looked at from all angels...the bottom line is "the need for "the vital spiritual experience" to avoid the pitfalls... thus...remaining in the rooms of recovery as a choice.
We can choose to go or we can choose to stay...It is a concsous choice.
For me ..I know I do not have another come back..I make a choice each and every day to stay.
Relapse is an option...but not for me
"All we really have is a daily reprieve based on our spiritual condition" [AA Big Book pg 85]
Page 34 refers to "Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends on the extent to which he has alreasdy lost the p[ower to choose....the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it--this uttter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish"
On page 35... it talks of the "mental states that precede a drink"
Taken by themselves it may sound like it is a "normal" thing to relapse...however there are other sections in the book that state:
"Lack of Power is our delimma" and "Alcohole is but a symtom" "Curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reeasoning." When it is looked at from all angels...the bottom line is "the need for "the vital spiritual experience" to avoid the pitfalls... thus...remaining in the rooms of recovery as a choice.
Obsessed Pug Momma
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Probably at Wal-Mart
Posts: 1,331
Lotsa good stuff here. I too am pretty sure there's no where in AA literature that says relapse is part of recovery. There are many books out there that try to speak on behalf of AA or try to give 2nd hand information about what AA does and does not teach. Relapse is not part of recovery--it is part of the disease.
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