Tazman53

Mike his hatred for AA is so strong that he is unaware that all of his supposed stats and studies to deride AA are made totally invalid because he does not have any other recovery programs or treatments to compare AA to and lead one to feel he is anything except anti AA. This is one reason why I would love to know his story, there has to be a reason behind his hatred of AA. Is he an alcoholic? Is he still practicing or is he in recovery? How did he recover if he did.

mike_mass

You can find parts of his story on his web site. He did do AA for a while but came to believe it was a cult. Also, one of his therapists who was pro-AA ended up going to jail for sex crimes and he associates that behavior with AA as a whole somehow. He also strikes me as being some kind of secular humanist, so the spiritual angle of the program might seem to him like out-and-out religion.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of have a soft spot for the guy. He is cantankerous, which somehow appeals to my defiant (don't tread on me) New England upbringing. And I believe he is a good counter-balance to those in fellowship who truly do have cultish tendencies or are willing to distort facts about recovery in order to perpetrate and aura of sanctity for a program that is not nor has ever been free from its defects.

Tazman53

Mike do you think the defects you speak of are in the program or some of the people in the program?

There is no doubt in any sane persons mind that AA is full of sick people, hell I am sick but getting better!

The supposed cultish part I hear so often I have never seen or heard of..... except of course from folks like Orange! LOL

Has anyone hear ever heard of people who went back out haveing AAers harrassing them?

Has anyone hear ever heard of people who were "brain washed in some secret AA conclave that no one in AA seems to know about?

Has anyone hear ever heard of people who go around to treatment centers, detoxes, & asylums taking alcoholics hostage and brain washing them?

Has anyone hear ever heard of a cult with out a leader?

Has anyone hear ever heard of a cult where the supposed members of the cult can come and go as they please when they please?

Has anyone hear ever heard of a cult that in some way, shape, form, or fashion someone is not gaining something material from the cult?

The cult deal is such a stretch it can only come from a practicing alcohlics mind who is in denial beyond beleif.

Some how I doubt that if I was in a cult I would feel safe calling up my sponsor, telling him to kiss me where the sun does not shine, then go to every meeting I presently attend and tell them to kiss it as well. I can imagine I would get a few phone calls at first wanting to know if they could help and to see if I was alright, but no one is going to come to my house and make me come back to where they can get my $1 per meeting I contribute! LOL

caraway

I've just read the section entitled "Whats good about AA?" It makes sense to me. I find it quite depressing to be told that if I'm not in AA and doing the steps then its because I have a constitutional inability to be honest with myself and that I am an unfortunate. Of course AA must be a 100% successful if those who fail just haven't done it right in the first place!

My experiences of AA were very similar, there really are some great people, but there are also some 'less nice people' and unfortunately, the number of years sobriety doesn't seem to correlate much with wisdom, humanity and morality. It just means they haven't had a drink and thats ALL it means.

That said, I do believe it is an exellent place to start (there isn't really much in the way of alternatives) and after that you can stay if you like it and not if you don't. I don't think its fair to judge either really, we may all be alcoholics but we also have our own individual personalities and leaving AA doesn't necessarily mean we're going to die, as its suggested.

collinsmi

Like what you posted Fluttering. If these things are true, then AA will have to contract. One way or the other, I'll keep passing on what I was taught. If I'm wrong, or not true to what I was taught, I'll drink. In my case, AA has been 100% successful today. I know people who believe the same things you wrote, and if I hear too much complaining at meetings, not a thing in the world that prevents me from starting my own meeting. I'll try not to worry about what I can't control.

laurenlanai25

hey! i have def had my ups and downs with aa!! but for me this is SO IMPORTANT. when i drank again, it was because i was NOT HONEST!! bottom line! when i am working my program to the best of my ability, it works!! its not the program that doesnt work for me, its me not working the program and getting too caught up in the readings instead of trying to live the program. when i am looking into how the program works i am setting myself up for relapse! i started questioning everything about a 1 1/2 before i went back out! it was in the works tho and i eventually did drink. and i was unfortunate that i couldnt get honest at that time. of course being in it i had no clue i wasnt be honest. i just let my resent fester and what did it tell me in the book? resentments are the #1 offenders of alcoholics!! so true for me!!

i agree there are some very sick people that have had 20 years sober and all it does mean is they havent drank in all those years! but i need to see those people to be an example of what i dont want to be!!! my recovery is for me and only me!!

also aa does not work for everyone!! i know people who go and start out there and leave and have been sober so far!! i know people who use church! also people who just quit cold turkey!! what i remember the book saying, i may be wrong, to drink is to die for us! also that no human power could relieve our alcoholism!! for me that does not mean if you leave aa u will die, it means for a real alcoholic, to drink is to die. aa spells it out very clearly, i cant do this on my own, i need something other than human power. some people do use aa as their hp, which is fine by me, so for those people they do need aa. but that is not saying all. for me i need aa, i need to constantly be reminded of where i came from and where i could go!!

caraway

Hi laurenlanai, thanks for the response, wow. AA people always seem to have very strong feelings about AA and get rather worried if others don't.

They seem to have to infer that us non AA-ers either having festering resentments or are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves, or some other defect suffered only by alcoholics or other sick people with 'isms'.

Just wanted to point out what you have already said yourself, people can and do get sober without AA. People (I count myself here!) can be honest with themselves without doing 12 steps.

Hey, today I'm sober, I feel ok, infact I'm rather happy, I feel blessed, I feel gratitude. Life is good and I want to live. Hopefully I'll feel the same tomorrow. I have managed this without going to AA. It hasn't been very long of course, I'm only a humble beginner.

I'm glad that you too are sober and enjoying your much needed AA meetings and am sorry that you found being honest with yourself so difficult. I do hope that you have got over your resentments too.

love c x

caraway

ps. I didn't say it was 'said' or 'written' that to leave aa was to die, I said it was suggested. Perhaps I should have said 'infered'. But I agree, drinking is definately not a good idea for an alcoholic, infact heavy drinking isn't a good idea for anyone.

Jfanagle

Caraway--I have never thought of the passage about being incapable of being honest as applying to those who do or do not "join" AA. It is a statement as I understand it, about the fact that if any of us in AA or any other philosophical quest for an answer to alcohol addiction cannot be totally honest with ourselves, then our chances of beating “demon rum” are nil. If we can not look ourselves in the mirror and be honest with ourselves, then we may be doomed to fail in our attempt to live a sober life.

I always feel very badly when AA is represented as a monolithic "organization" that one has to either love or hate. To me it is a logical approach to dealing with something that I was incapable of dealing with on my own. I have encountered many “members” of AA who carry their glad tidings like a club to beat new folks with. I avoid those folks and find those who have something I want. I didn’t drink with everybody in the bars either.

It is NOT the only way to get or stay sober; it is just the way that I know has worked for me for the past 8 years. Prior to that I was without alcohol for as long as a measly 3 months and then right back to the bottle.

I believe that life is a circle and a SOBER LIFE is also in that circle. There are at least 360 points that I can start at on that circle to reach the same place in the center. If a whole bunch of folks who have reached the center offer to show me that the 45 degree entry point has got them all there, then I am going to try that one and if their directions allow me to hit my target, I am going to tell others that the 45degree point is a good place to start.

AA is as different as the folks who serve in the individual meetings. I always stick out in the out of state meetings because I clap at the end of a sharing, that’s what we do in Southern Cal. If the Hitler Youth Group starts an AA meeting, I ain't going, but they have a right to start it. IF AA DOESN"T WORK FOR YOU; DON'T GO. At the meetings I attend we will save you a chair, but we won’t make you sit in it.

I go because I got sober and stay sober there. I have never recruited, and won't start, but if you ask for help I will reach out, "because when someone somewhere reaches out, I want the hand of AA to be there." However I PROMISE I won't SNATCH you off the street with that hand.

Best wishes in sobriety no matter where you find it. Anyone can be totally honest, with or without AA. I just didn’t realize that honesty was the root of my drinking until I heard it in an AA meeting. Others may find it in religion or fraternal organizations.

Just my opinion,

Jon

caraway

Thanks jfanagle, great post. Actually I wasn't worried about being snatched off the street. I don't really dislike AA that much, I wouldn't rule out going again one day if I feel its appropriate, its just that sometimes the people in it come out with trite remarks and sayings and I sometimes find it offensive it sounds so smug. I know that this is a defect in me and if I were more mature I wouldn't react to it. Perhaps I will work on that one.

Besides, the Orange Papers make a good devils advocate, and I like a good discussion.

Thanks for your well put reply, God Bless

Caraway

laurenlanai25

hi caraway!

i guess i am just a little confused on your last post me? not to be mean but if you stay sober with or without aa has no effect on my sobriety whatsoever. i have always just been taught to share my experience with people. if others choose not to go the aa route, that is fine with me. i have always been taught to share my experience. usually when i share in a meeting or write on here, i do it for me! it helps me stay sober, thats what helping others is about. if someone gets something from what i wrote that is wonderful, if not they can leave it. usually though it just confirms that what i am doing in my life today is a good thing, for me!

cThey seem to have to infer that us non AA-ers either having festering resentments or are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves, or some other defect suffered only by alcoholics or other sick people with 'isms'.[/QUOTE]

i cant speak for anyone else, but for me i get resentments easily and i have hard time getting that gut wretching honesty, i have lied to myself for so long about alcoholism that i even start to believe my own lies. i have never meant to infer that non aa-ers have resentments or a problem getting honest, because i dont know and its not my job to worry about it. when i speak i speak only for myself becuase that is the only experience i have!! my ways are not always the right ways by all means, but i do the best with what i know how!! and i dont think that alcoholics are the only ones with defects, for me though i take mine to the extreme!! i allow my character defects to sometimes run me!! thats the difference in from me and some of my non alcoholic friends, they know how to let things go, where me i would choose to drink to cover up what i dont want to feel!!.
i guess with this here i am just a little confused!? i agree with you!
like i said i know that there are other ways people stay sober!!



thank you for your imput, i just want to make it clear that to each their own and whatever floats your boat is fine by me!! i do have strong convictions for aa and i should i owe aa my life. i feel very blessed to have such a wonderful program if i choose to work it!! some days are much better then others for me. i love to read everyones stories and how they sober! i use people as measuring sticks on how i want to be in my sobriety!! i hope there was no misunderstanding with anything that i have written in either of these posts. thanks! yet another sober night for this alcoholic because of this forum!

Jfanagle

I have already worn this one out, but I just wanted to thank everyone for a good spirited discussion. Isn't it great that we all are WILLING to work together for the common good?

If you get enough troubled folks willing to share their experience, strengths and hope we can't help but make each other better people.

Thanks for another day of sobriety and as the say in the Rocky Mountain States;
"I'll take another 24!!

Jon

caraway

Hi laurenlanai, sorry if I confused you. Actually we seem to agree on a lot of things - I like to share my experiences too (am I allowed opinions as well? Should I end all my opinions with IMHO or JMHO?). Some people reading this might be feeling a failure because they went to AA and didn't fall in love with it. You never know, they might even find it helpful. If not please skip this part.

"Whatever floats my boat" D'you mean my liking for discussion? Is this a fault or an asset? Both perhaps. Does this mean I am sick or just plain troubled?

Have you read the Orange Papers by the way? I particularly recommend the chapter headed "Whats good about AA". I can't do those linky things but Mike Mass has done one further up the page. For anyone joining AA it might be helpful to bear in mind that chapter. Its nice to try and look at things from more than one angle IMHO.

Anyway, I hope this is helping you as much as it is helping me. Its not helping me sleep of course but never mind, I'm rested and I can always nap through the day, I'm blessed in that way.

laurenlanai25

hi!

no what i meant was, if you want to be sober with or without aa! i dont understand tho why you have to be so defensive to what i write? sick or troubled? fault or asset? i have not once judged you, im sorry if someone in aa has at one time and you have a bad taste in your mouth. i guess we are just on different pages and thats ok.

i have glanced over some things, its interesting. for me and just for me, hahahaha....i have no desire to fix something that is not broken!! the aa program is fine with me today, who knows? there may come a time when i decide i need an excuse to drink again and if that day comes i think those orange papers will do wonders justifying my reason to go back out!! hopefully that day never comes again!! thanks for the chat this evening!

caraway

Hi laurenlanai, thanks for the reply. No, I wasn't suggesting you were judging me. Sorry if it came across like that. I mentioned the term 'troubled' because jfanagle used it in his post. Sick is a term often used by people in AA and that and similar terms are used by AA members in this forum implying that that is what we all are. Not you - you haven't said that - so don't take that personally. They often say what their fault is followed by words suggesting that all alcoholics have this fault - and being an alcoholic I feel that they must be including me and I do find that offensive/irritating. If they have that fault I wish they would just leave it at that and not include everyone else in their judgement. Alcoholics may share alot in common but I do believe we all have our differences and unless there is scientific proof to say that all or most alcoholics share this or that then I would rather try not to judge A's as a whole. So called normal people have a whole spectrum of faults too, thats what it is to be human. But I'm not aiming this at you laurenlai, I'm sorry I've made it come across like that.

I suppose I was using your reply to vent a bit in general because it does get to me sometimes. I mean some days I can let it pass.

Anyway, when all said and done, we're both here and we're both sober. Thats the important thing. I really am glad you've found a path of recovery that suits you and you are not an offensive person at all and of course I don't feel you've judged me. I think you've done marvellously and you're so incredibly young too! Well, you are from where I am anyway.

lots of love caraway x

laurenlanai25

thanks!! and i do agree!! there are people in my meetings that i go to here that have some of those attitudes!!

yes and we are both sober and that is a miracle for any alocholic!!

good night!!

Fluttering

Because we are sober today..We are a success.

"Don't quit before the miracle"

daydream

I read the orange papers bs. He made all sorts of false statements, like claiming that AA says it's the only way, etc. I did skip some parts, but I didn't see anywhere at all where there was any distinction between stats of those who just went to aa and those who actually indicated that they took all 12 steps. No mention (to my knowledge) that AA's effectiveness is based on application of spiritual principles that is an alternative to the faulty thinking and behavior that would make a person want to drink. That would make all the difference. THAT is what makes it AA.

Fluttering

It is "attraction rather than promotion"

When we practice these prinicples in ALL our affairs, which includes but is not limited to remembering our motto of "Love and Tolerance"..it truly is how we live, the difference in how we live, that will be the attraction.

When I walk my talk...which is "The New Design For Living" I have learned in the rooms of recovery...I may be the only Big Book some may ever read...