what is AVRT and SMART? n/t
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, Peter,
Remember that the original question I was replying to was "what is SMART?", not "how does SMART compare to AA?" But since you've raised that question in your post, here are my comments.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter
[B]I found sobriety in AA.
I also found a better way of living and relating to my fellow human beings,pretty amazing for a programme that promised me only freedom from drinking and yet delivered so much.
ý>SMART focuses on 4 areas --- Motivation, Coping, Problem Solving, and Lifestyle Balance. These, especially the latter, encourage a better way of living and relating. There is recognition that sobriety and drinking are just a part of your whole life, your beliefs, and the behavior patterns that you have developed.
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I have made many friends in AA and even after several years of joyous freedom from alcohol I still attend meetings with much gladness.
Being able to share with other recovering alcoholics in a spirit of love and unity makes recovery so much easier and more fun
ý> The group reinforcement provided by AA is obviously one of its strengths. There are face-to-face SMART meetings in some areas. There is an amazing schedule of on-line meetings available, and a forum board which many find helpful. Many who get sober move on with their lives, preferring not to dwell on alcohol as it no longer matters to them. Others return periodically to meetings or the forum board to say "hi" and provide encouragement. Some like myself check in daily at the forum board to give help and encouragement to newcomers who are in the distressed early stage of abstinence that we are all familiar with.
-----------------
AA is an ongoing learning process for me.I will not "graduate" from AA at the end of the Twelve Steps nor will I get a diploma to hang on my wall.But one thing I do know is that as I live and work my programme I become a better person each day for it.
ý> As I said, some choose to move on from any formal activities, but changing your behavior is an ongoing process. One of the acronyms used (SMART has many cute acronyms) is PPP: patience, persistence, and practice. It has taken you a lifetime to acquire your unhealthy behavior patterns, and it takes time to learn new ones.
-----------------
The Spiritual Principles intrinsic to the Twelve Steps are not techniques invented by anyone.They are "gifts" from a Higher Source and as long as I live my life in a spirit of Honesty,Humility,Tolerance,Patience and Love I know I will be able to find the answer to some of lifes little problems.
ý>Now this is an area where SMART and AA differ. That which is given can be taken away. We prefer to acquire the skills to deal with urges, dispute irrational beliefs, and practice healthy behavior. Your premise implies that one who doesn't believe in a higher power will be unable to achieve sobriety, but we all know that is not true; many non-believers successfully quit drinking.
The virtues you are describing are all helpful in building strength of character, which helps us get past setbacks and overcome obstacles to our sobriety. Tolerance and patience, especially, can help overcome low frustration tolerance--a common trigger to drinking. Recognizing the impact of life's little problems on our emotions and behavior has been very helpful to me. Avoiding "awfulizing" (listing and exaggerating everything that's going wrong, as an excuse to seek "relief" by drinking) is a key skill.
I use the term skill because it is similar to riding a bicycle or playing a musical instrument. Changing drinking behavior is awkward at first, but with practice you get better at it. Over time your skills increase until techniques such as finding a diverting activity may blossom into a new interest or even avocation.
-----------------
One of the things I am learning is that that there is nothing common about common sense
Had I been able to apply "common sense" to my alcoholism I would have stopped drinking in 1986.
ý>I disagree. Had you applied common sense in 1986, you would have quit drinking. Now you have applied it. Sobriety is simple, really. You just don't drink. You don't have to DO anything to achieve sobriety; it's a lot of things you DON'T do! Don't buy it. Don't open it. Don't pour it. Don't swallow it. It's the thinking, rationalizing, whining, awfulizing, prevaricating, and making excuses that complicates it.
--------------
The Disease Concept.Powerlessness and "Recovering not recovered are all valuable tools in my programme that helps me to maintain a healthy distance from alcohol.
ý>To me they would be major obstacles to sobriety. If it's an illness, I can't cure it myself. If I'm powerless, I can't help myself. If I can never recover, how do I get on with my life? When I have the flu, I'm sick. When I get over it, I don't still have the flu. I'm recovered. I might get the flu again, but it isn't because I had it before.
Since I have no intention of ever going anywhere near alcohol again why should I be uncomfortable with being "powerless over alcohol?"
ý>What baffles me is why you wouldn't want to acknowledge what you have accomplished. You chose not to drink, so you have the power and you have exercised it of your own free will. You continue to exercise that choice every day.
---------------
AA makes no false claims of it's ability to help the alcoholic who suffers nor will it ever claim to have the only answer to one of mankinds most ancient scourges but one thing I do know is that AA is helping this alcoholic and hundreds of thousands of others in just about every country in the world to recover.
Not bad for an organization that had the most humblest of origins.
ý>Anecdotal evidence of AA's recovery rate does not prove that it is an effective program for most people. Christian Science and the Church of Latter Day Saints also preach abstinence, and have considerable anecdotal evidence that it works for their members. There is little empirical evidence that AA works (or that it doesn't). Remember, the S in SMART stands for Self. You are in control of your own sobriety. Scientific research has shown that the people who have successfully recovered, regardless of the method, all have three basic traits:
1. Commitment to sobriety.
2. Change in lifestyle.
3. They rehearse and plan for urges.'
----------------
In my "not so humble" opinion.I believe there are a lot of "hurry come up" programmes around nowadays that have sprung up in the wake of The Alcoholics Anonymous movement and although some of them may have the abilty to help drunks to recover some of them I view with skepticism and others with alarm.
ý>If this comment is about SMART, then I'd like to know what about it makes you skeptical or alarmed. The board of directors is made up of researchers and educators in the field of sobriety, and the whole program is science-based.
As I said, I came to this forum board because I was curious about AA. Newcomers to SMART are often sharply critical of AA, and I have no direct experience with it. Also, my impression is that this forum board is not 12-step, and is open to other views and to sharing about successful recovery experiences. I believe that comparing recovery programs can be useful but should be done with civility. So far I like what I see here. Thanks for posting, Peter.
Don S
Remember that the original question I was replying to was "what is SMART?", not "how does SMART compare to AA?" But since you've raised that question in your post, here are my comments.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter
[B]I found sobriety in AA.
I also found a better way of living and relating to my fellow human beings,pretty amazing for a programme that promised me only freedom from drinking and yet delivered so much.
ý>SMART focuses on 4 areas --- Motivation, Coping, Problem Solving, and Lifestyle Balance. These, especially the latter, encourage a better way of living and relating. There is recognition that sobriety and drinking are just a part of your whole life, your beliefs, and the behavior patterns that you have developed.
-----------------
I have made many friends in AA and even after several years of joyous freedom from alcohol I still attend meetings with much gladness.
Being able to share with other recovering alcoholics in a spirit of love and unity makes recovery so much easier and more fun
ý> The group reinforcement provided by AA is obviously one of its strengths. There are face-to-face SMART meetings in some areas. There is an amazing schedule of on-line meetings available, and a forum board which many find helpful. Many who get sober move on with their lives, preferring not to dwell on alcohol as it no longer matters to them. Others return periodically to meetings or the forum board to say "hi" and provide encouragement. Some like myself check in daily at the forum board to give help and encouragement to newcomers who are in the distressed early stage of abstinence that we are all familiar with.
-----------------
AA is an ongoing learning process for me.I will not "graduate" from AA at the end of the Twelve Steps nor will I get a diploma to hang on my wall.But one thing I do know is that as I live and work my programme I become a better person each day for it.
ý> As I said, some choose to move on from any formal activities, but changing your behavior is an ongoing process. One of the acronyms used (SMART has many cute acronyms) is PPP: patience, persistence, and practice. It has taken you a lifetime to acquire your unhealthy behavior patterns, and it takes time to learn new ones.
-----------------
The Spiritual Principles intrinsic to the Twelve Steps are not techniques invented by anyone.They are "gifts" from a Higher Source and as long as I live my life in a spirit of Honesty,Humility,Tolerance,Patience and Love I know I will be able to find the answer to some of lifes little problems.
ý>Now this is an area where SMART and AA differ. That which is given can be taken away. We prefer to acquire the skills to deal with urges, dispute irrational beliefs, and practice healthy behavior. Your premise implies that one who doesn't believe in a higher power will be unable to achieve sobriety, but we all know that is not true; many non-believers successfully quit drinking.
The virtues you are describing are all helpful in building strength of character, which helps us get past setbacks and overcome obstacles to our sobriety. Tolerance and patience, especially, can help overcome low frustration tolerance--a common trigger to drinking. Recognizing the impact of life's little problems on our emotions and behavior has been very helpful to me. Avoiding "awfulizing" (listing and exaggerating everything that's going wrong, as an excuse to seek "relief" by drinking) is a key skill.
I use the term skill because it is similar to riding a bicycle or playing a musical instrument. Changing drinking behavior is awkward at first, but with practice you get better at it. Over time your skills increase until techniques such as finding a diverting activity may blossom into a new interest or even avocation.
-----------------
One of the things I am learning is that that there is nothing common about common sense
Had I been able to apply "common sense" to my alcoholism I would have stopped drinking in 1986.ý>I disagree. Had you applied common sense in 1986, you would have quit drinking. Now you have applied it. Sobriety is simple, really. You just don't drink. You don't have to DO anything to achieve sobriety; it's a lot of things you DON'T do! Don't buy it. Don't open it. Don't pour it. Don't swallow it. It's the thinking, rationalizing, whining, awfulizing, prevaricating, and making excuses that complicates it.
--------------
The Disease Concept.Powerlessness and "Recovering not recovered are all valuable tools in my programme that helps me to maintain a healthy distance from alcohol.
ý>To me they would be major obstacles to sobriety. If it's an illness, I can't cure it myself. If I'm powerless, I can't help myself. If I can never recover, how do I get on with my life? When I have the flu, I'm sick. When I get over it, I don't still have the flu. I'm recovered. I might get the flu again, but it isn't because I had it before.
Since I have no intention of ever going anywhere near alcohol again why should I be uncomfortable with being "powerless over alcohol?"
ý>What baffles me is why you wouldn't want to acknowledge what you have accomplished. You chose not to drink, so you have the power and you have exercised it of your own free will. You continue to exercise that choice every day.
---------------
AA makes no false claims of it's ability to help the alcoholic who suffers nor will it ever claim to have the only answer to one of mankinds most ancient scourges but one thing I do know is that AA is helping this alcoholic and hundreds of thousands of others in just about every country in the world to recover.
Not bad for an organization that had the most humblest of origins.
ý>Anecdotal evidence of AA's recovery rate does not prove that it is an effective program for most people. Christian Science and the Church of Latter Day Saints also preach abstinence, and have considerable anecdotal evidence that it works for their members. There is little empirical evidence that AA works (or that it doesn't). Remember, the S in SMART stands for Self. You are in control of your own sobriety. Scientific research has shown that the people who have successfully recovered, regardless of the method, all have three basic traits:
1. Commitment to sobriety.
2. Change in lifestyle.
3. They rehearse and plan for urges.'
----------------
In my "not so humble" opinion.I believe there are a lot of "hurry come up" programmes around nowadays that have sprung up in the wake of The Alcoholics Anonymous movement and although some of them may have the abilty to help drunks to recover some of them I view with skepticism and others with alarm.
ý>If this comment is about SMART, then I'd like to know what about it makes you skeptical or alarmed. The board of directors is made up of researchers and educators in the field of sobriety, and the whole program is science-based.
As I said, I came to this forum board because I was curious about AA. Newcomers to SMART are often sharply critical of AA, and I have no direct experience with it. Also, my impression is that this forum board is not 12-step, and is open to other views and to sharing about successful recovery experiences. I believe that comparing recovery programs can be useful but should be done with civility. So far I like what I see here. Thanks for posting, Peter.
Don S
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
First off Don thank you for your participation. I cant comment on SMART cause I know very little about it. It is enough to say that you have a different emphazise than AA. And it works for you. What you may not know is that we AA's are losely joined at the hip. We dont all march to the same drummer or spout the party line on demand. Example: I have considered myself 'recovered' for many years and if pressed I will say so And yet I hear many people pronounce themselves 'recovering alcoholics' all the time. It is just semantics, nothing more. I know what they mean but I dont focus on the ending of the word. I consider it a healthier attitude to believe that I have recovered. Those who consider themselves to still be recovering use that word to remind themselves that 'stuff happens' and they need not be cocky about their recovery. These arent big stumbling blocks to AA's. We understand each other.
Powerlessness over alcohol seems, to me, self evident. But apparantly not. I have learned skills as you have Don to avoid that first drink. We agree that abstinance is required. I have many tools and have the willingness to use them to stay away from that first drink. That is power. And yes I give myself some of the credit for doing it. But not all. Being part of a fellowship with the common goal of not drinking no matter what is tremendously powerful and essental to my sobriety. So without help I couldn't have gotten sober and without help I will probably drink again. Experience tells me this. Where I am powerless is after I take the first drink, not before. Because after that first one there is no telling what I will do. But it is a good bet that alcohol will play a major role in whatever it is I do. Even when I knew I should have stopped and gone home, I couldn't. You would probably call that my choice. And in a sense it is but that only puts the responsibility for my actions on my shoulders where it belongs. It doesn't explain why I continue to drink when I know I should stop. That is powerlessness. And AA's don't even think twice about it. We know we are powerless and are truly baffled when someone says they are not. Maybe it is just semantics again. But it really isn't an issue for us.
I should stop here cause this is getting too long. Thanks for the info on SMART. I appreciate your not bashing AA as some other methods of "recovery" do.
Powerlessness over alcohol seems, to me, self evident. But apparantly not. I have learned skills as you have Don to avoid that first drink. We agree that abstinance is required. I have many tools and have the willingness to use them to stay away from that first drink. That is power. And yes I give myself some of the credit for doing it. But not all. Being part of a fellowship with the common goal of not drinking no matter what is tremendously powerful and essental to my sobriety. So without help I couldn't have gotten sober and without help I will probably drink again. Experience tells me this. Where I am powerless is after I take the first drink, not before. Because after that first one there is no telling what I will do. But it is a good bet that alcohol will play a major role in whatever it is I do. Even when I knew I should have stopped and gone home, I couldn't. You would probably call that my choice. And in a sense it is but that only puts the responsibility for my actions on my shoulders where it belongs. It doesn't explain why I continue to drink when I know I should stop. That is powerlessness. And AA's don't even think twice about it. We know we are powerless and are truly baffled when someone says they are not. Maybe it is just semantics again. But it really isn't an issue for us.
I should stop here cause this is getting too long. Thanks for the info on SMART. I appreciate your not bashing AA as some other methods of "recovery" do.
To Life!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 9,293
I'm glad to read this post again. I remember reading it a few years back, when I was new to SR.
I don't see the two programs as competition. I view them as complementary.
I'm grateful for the information.
Shalom!
I don't see the two programs as competition. I view them as complementary.
I'm grateful for the information.
Shalom!
Michael
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London England
Posts: 291
AVRT works for me and I am everlastingly grateful to the member here who was kind enough to direct me to their site. I believe that it works for me because it operates in a logical non-spiritual way offering sobriety through self-reliance. Now this approach works for the logical non-spiritual me but it will not fit everyone.
As far as I can see it is wort giving it a try if the spiritual, group based programmes are ineffective or problematic.
Michael
As far as I can see it is wort giving it a try if the spiritual, group based programmes are ineffective or problematic.
Michael
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