can he work the program with out believing in god?
 

can an A work the program if they don't believe in God and don't know what their higher power is. He believes in humans being made by molucules and when you die..you're dead. How to I help him see or search for his higher power, can he still work the program with the higher power because he is having alot of trouble with step 2 and 3.

Thank you for your advice.

Redbear

I know people who work the program without believing in God. Some say they don't believe in a higher power either and struggle with this part of the program. A friend of mine found a loose interpretation of a higher power (universal connectedness) and was able to move through the steps with this belief.

Great question. For me I could not define a higher power when I started AA. The only thing I knew is that I hoped there was some power greater than me that could help me. It was using that concept that I was able to work around the God/Higher Power idea.

I personally do not know if when you die that is the end or if there is some after life. Personally, I think I have enough to work on in this life so worrying about the possibility of a next one is too much for me so I just don't dwell on it.

If he believes that we are all made of molecules and atoms, one way to get him to understand the concept of a power greater than himself is to ask him if an atomic bomb is more powerful than himself. If he believes that it is then he has a concept of a higher power. It does not have to be the God a lot of people believe in.

I personally would never have gotten sober if I had to believe in the God I was raised with (Southern Baptist). My concept of God/Higher Power evolves daily and at this point does incorporate some of the ideas and beliefs held by Christianity although I do not personally believe in religion. I have found with religion it is too easy to let the ego take over and start to believe that one is better than someone else. With spirituality my experience has been that I am no better than anyone else and the only person I can work on and change is myself.

One other suggestion is have him read the chapter to the "agnostics" in the Big Book of AA.

I don't know if any of this makes sense or helps but hope you find something useful in it. Good luck. I hope your friend is able to get past the problem.

Hmmm...
Here is a list of recovery programs...

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-programs.html


I already had my God when I began AA
so I have no experience with this situation.

The only way I know to help another find God
is to lead by example. It's a personal quest.
JMO

Blessings to both of you

I work the program and happily remain a total agnostic--there are even AA meetings for agnostics/freethinkers in many areas. My higher power is other people and the practices (meditation, writing, meetings) that help me stay aware of my own messy thinking.

It helps to have a sponsor and friends in the program who feel the same way, or at least understand, so it might help for him to share his frustrations at a meeting. Of course there is a risk that others at the meeting will insist that "someday" he'll learn, or try to preach at him, but more likely at least one person will come up afterwards and offer support.

Feel free to have your friend p.m. me--I've been through quite a bit of frustration (don't get me started on "We Agnostics") but remain sober and very, very grateful to AA.

Best wishes.

Imho
 

I my huble opinion it is not about believing in God, but believeling in yourself. YOU are the who will have to do the work, no-one else, not even God will do it for you.

Just my 5c

Hey Redbear,

When I started the 12 step programs of A.A. and N.A., all I knew about was the God I didn't believe in and I was pretty darn sure that sooner or later the programs (or people in the programs) were going to require that I believe in the God I didn't believe in.

Never happened.

I believe each person has to find their own higher power and they have complete freedom to assign it whatever attributes ( or lack of attributes ) they need to help them to stay sober and grow in recovery.

Today I have friends in the program with many different spiritual beliefs and I find I can learn something from each them without having to believe exactly as they do.

The fact that there is a whole chapter devoted to this in the big book gives me the impresion that the authors were well aware of the fact that there are a lot of agnostic/atheists around.

What it is promised by the 12 steps is a spiritual change not a religious one. It is a personal thing but it is hard to understand how to find a HP or how to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him" if your HP is tree or something.

I basically replace the word god with good and try to act on that little voice in my head that usually knows the 'right' thing to do.

Insted of 'let go and let god' I 'let go and try to do the right thing'.

So yea, get him to read 'We Agnostics' like nandm suggested.
:)

Sometimes it helps tremendously when the idea of GOD seems to be a problem to look at it as

Good Orderly Direction

or use the group as a Higher Power

Group Of Drunks

Just a suggestion.

Love and hugs,

yes

Maybe it would help to think of the HP as "the universe", sort of the collective power of all living things. The power of all that has lived, lives, and will live in the future.

I do beleive in a Higher Power whom I choose to call God, look up the definition you will find the following:

For me I go with a combination of definition #1 & #2 but not the entirety of either. My sponsee is agnostic and AA as a whole is his HP as defined in #3.

in the BB it says:

All one really needs to do is continue to seek thier HP that they understand, it is a beginning, a HP is available to all who seek one. My sponsee prays, not to a God of any sort, but he says the more he prays the more he senses releif and a Power greater then himself.

The below from the BB is what my sponsee said stood out to him, yes he is an agnostic, but he said there is something which is allowing him to be spiritual and he feels it growing, he has made the decision to go with living on a spiritual basis rather then facing an alcoholic death.

I have heard folks share that they were so dead set against a God/HP of any sort that they had to start out simply being willing to want to beleive in a God/HP of any sort.

It's funny that you posted this as lately I've been trying to wrap my brain around the whole HP thing. Until, oh bout last year, I would consider myself a Christian. I taught Sunday school for a bit a long time ago, I was raised that way. Then I started considering other points of view on this so decided that I was agnostic. Once I started working my program, of course I've been thinking about who/what my HP is. As of right now, I have no idea!

I know that praying helps keep me on track. I pray for others when it's needed. Who/if anything is receiving these prayers? I don't know, and actually I've decided that I don't care. All I know is that when I do prayer/meditate/whatever I feel stronger, more centered, and calm.

My sponsor has helped me by telling me that as I work my program whatever my HP is will reveal itself to me. I'm going with that!

As long as you are sincerely seeking your HP, your HP will reveal itself to you, as you progress through the steps you will become closer to your HP, this I have found to be an ongoing evolving process as you draw closer to your HP your understanding will increase.

I have heard folks say that you can even use a "doorknob" as a power greater than yourself. I used to laugh at this silliness until a member in a meeting explained if you think that a doorknob isn't more powerful than you are "just try and open the door without it!"

Yes..

maybe you can ask him this question...
Why did he truned his will and life over to a bottle and he didn't have a hang up
with that concept ?..lol


Step #2....
mmm a conception not a concept.
basically it's work in process and changing,becuase as we stay sober
longer and longer our perception change. Our understanding change.

TO BE RESTORED TO SANITY
mmm..truning my will and life over to a bottle was totally insane.lol

It was not until later in my recovery that I realized for my first 7 years of sobriety I had been using the God of my Sponsor and Husband.

It was in 1988 after I had moved to New Mexico that I decided I NEEDED to get in touch with and try to understand the part of my Heritage that was "the deep dark secret and we never talked about." My grandmother was full blooded Lakota indian. Here in NM I started seeking out the "Elders" of the Navaho and Hopi tribes and they helped me a lot.

I have also able to meet with several Sioux Elders over the years by attending the Annual Ceremony at Window Rock AZ and Albuquerque, NM

Finally for the first time in my life, by about 13 years or so into recovery I started to find peace and serenity such as I have never known before. I have continued this route ever since.

Each of us has to find the HP of our own understanding it is easy for some of us, for others of us who have had problems or phobias with organized religion or are atheists or agnostics it may take longer. If we are diligent we all can find a path to follow.

J M H O based on my own ES&H.

BTW today I am a proud, sober Native American, :)

Love and hugs,

Becareful about forcing you hubby to recover or working his program for him.
I learnd a very hard lesson. it wasn't about her trust or faith.
Ironicly it was about mine. After 3 years of struggling i nearly went crazy.
I finally suffered enough to let go and let god.
I truned her over to a loving god, even if i didn't beliving in god.
I bascially had to get out of the way so the miracle can happen.
it didn't happen on my time or my belief.
The moment I did that , changes of events happened.
My GF actaully got clean and sober.
I still struggle with a HP or God in my thinking, but I follow my heart
and took a leap of faith.
Is there a GOD ?...I don't know.
I'm clean and sober, my GF is cleand and sober today.

You know so many have an issue with "God" in the BB, Bill W., Dr. Bob, and the others all had thier God of thier understanding, but Bill W. was the primary author of the BB and as a result there are parts of it where Bill's conception of his HP slides in there, but Bill does point out that it is not his HP we need, nor is it Dr. Bob's or any one elses that we need, it is our own personal HP that we all need to find. I know some folks who have shared that early in thier sobriety they borrowed thier sponsor's HP until they developed an understanding of thier HP.

Ones HP is thier own HP, not mine or any one elses, we simply have to continue to seek out our HP and draw closer to our HP as we grow.

I dunno. reckon we'll find out.
The God of *my* understanding ... made the stars.
Can pretty much do anything.