St_Kurt

It is now August and I've been attending AA meetings since December. So that's nearly 9 months of trying to see the similarities instead of the differences. I'm lucky to live in a town with several rehab facilities and a variety of different meetings and meeting places. I have an understanding sponsor who I get along well with and I've made some friends.

The other day I was thinking about my overall experience with AA and "being an alcoholic" and I realized that something wasn't quite right.

I never found it that easy to fit into AA, but I continued to put in an effort and finally made friends, do service work, and even got to do a lead. There are certain meetings I truly enjoy and I love seeing the great sucesses in AA that I've witnessed.

My own experiences with alcohol are varied, but to be honest, when I sit in meetings listening to people talk about their experiences, I usually have no idea what they're talking about. The things they've done while drinking, to keep drinking, etc. are very hard for me to relate to. I know I could add yet when I say I've never done these things, but I'm talking about about a deeper lack of understanding. The other thing was that I've made friends, but often times I don't know what makes them tick either. Their mindset and motivations are more often than not, completely baffling to me.

Finally, in frustration, I started going to Al-Anon meetings again so that I could understand my new AA friends. I also spend time on this board reading posts in both the Alcoholism and Friends of... forums in hopes of further insights.

I've admitted to my sponsor while in Chicago and since moving back, I haven't necessarily practiced any real form of abstinence. Nor have I practiced any real form of drunkeness. Occasionally, I've had a drink with non-AA friends or with dinner. This is how, except for a brief period, I have always drank. Since this has now going been on for several months, she suggested that perhaps I was passing "the test" suggested in the chapter "More About Alcoholism" in the Big Book.

A collection of events over the last few days along with the above is leading me to a possible realization. These events were:

- I went to a noisy pub playing darts after a meeting with a few friends. I normally enjoy this particular pub and like playing darts. That evening I was having an off night at darts and found the atmosphere at the pub unenjoyable - too loud and I didn't like the band. I asked the others if they minded if I took off. They were seriously upset by this. They thought they'd done something to upset me and wanted to fix it (but, they hadn't). Or someone else at the pub had done something and they wanted to fix them (but, nope). The idea that "I just felt like taking off and going home" didn't seem to be something they could understand. I was followed home and they hung around for 2 more hours to make sure I didn't drink (something I had no plans to do). I just wanted to go to bed and the more I insisted, the more they were sure I was up to something. They stayed until the liquor stores closed and I simply got ready for bed while they were there since I couldn't get rid of them. I politely thanked them for their concern since I knew they had my best interests at heart.

- A few folks know where I live and I get a lot of unexpected drop ins. The other day a guy from the program dropped in and mentioned he had no idea how much sober time I had since I never pick up coins. I didn't either so I got a calendar and figured it out. It was a little over 2 weeks and he was like "Wait! When did you relapse! This is terrible!" And I explained that if I wanted a drink I could have one right now since I had a bottle of vodka in my freezer, but I didn't want one. And the relapse was a drink with dinner. He didn't believe anyone could have one drink by itself and spent a few minutes trying to get me to drink and "show him". Huh? I'd just said I wasn't in the mood. He didn't believe I could possess alcohol and not drink it and so spent the rest of the visit trying to get in my freezer until I made an excuse that I had to leave so he did too.

Now add to this about a dozen other similar types of "I just don't get it" types of situations since I've been back down here and I'm beginning to see a pattern.

The point of AA is to have fellowship with other alcoholics; people who are like you so you don't have to explain yourself all the time. People describe feeling like "they've come home" when they go to meetings and feeling "safe" in the company of other alcoholics. The thing I've begun to realize is that, when hanging around with the fellowship of AA, I've started to need to put up the same kind of boundaries and use the same detachment skills as I have with my alcoholic parents.

I was thinking about these experiences, the comment from my sponsor, combined with the fact that I've been attending Al-Anon meetings so that I can understand what's going on in the AA meetings I attend and... It's not adding up.

I've continued to go to AA meetings on the foundation of a quote I like that says "I'd rather spend my life believing I'm an alcoholic, sober, than drunk and not knowing", figuring that if I truly don't care about drinking, I should be able to give it up completely either way.

The thing is though, I like to have a drink once and a while. And except for a weird 3 month period, it truly was once and a while. It's almost like having someone say:

"If you really cared about yourself, you wouldn't eat strawberries."
"why?"
"Because I care about myself, and I'm allergic to them. If you and I are hanging out together, you must be allergic too."

What if I just have some bad drinking habits that come from growing up with alcoholics? I hate drinking at big parties or in crowded bars - there I've always preferred to be my sober self. My preference has always been to drink alone or with one or two people in a quiet relaxed setting, like in a home - which is what I always saw my mother do. (Even when she was in a crowd she'd still sit in the corner alone and drink.) This isn't to say that there aren't things that are suspicious. I have a weirdly high tolerence for someone my size when I do decide to drink beyond one or two and there are certain parts of the description of "early alcoholism" from Beyond the Influence that sound a lot like me - so I'm not saying it's one thing or the other.

It's just got me thinking, why am I having to make such an effort to adapt to AA. Sometimes it feels like the only thing that makes my life unmanagable lately is not that every few weeks I decide to have a cocktail - it's the presence of extra alcoholics in my life.*

~SK

*Not that I'd want to give any of these experiences or friends up. Like I said, it's been awesome to be part of such a supportive group of people and the friends I've made are ... friends, regardless of how I met them.

best

Carry the message that there are answers and ways to stop the crazyness for people who hold a desire to stop drinking.

Seems from what you write that your not there yet. Can't connect with what people are talking about when we are not on the same page as them.

Slowbriety

I dont understand.

If one is non-alcoholic, why in the world would that person want to be in AA?

If one could have a drink or two then stop, why would that person even think they were alcoholic?

If someone didnt relate and could moderate their drinking, why would that person be posting to an internet forum for alcoholics?

St_Kurt

Quite simple Slowbriety. I thought I might have a problem.

I grew up in Alateen and then went to Al-Anon as an adult on and off for most of my adult life. My mom has been in AA for the last two+ years and when she was working the program, it worked great for her.

A year ago I noticed that the way I drank changed and it bothered me. I can put an exact date to it even. There were a couple of episodes were I drank more than I'd intended to and given my family history, I was worried about what it might mean for my future and questioning whether or not these new drinking habits were unhealthy and/or disordered. I was worried that they might be and I knew exactly where to go to find out and get help.

That's why I'm here and that's why I've continued to go to meetings. I'm still not sure. I can't deny that those episodes happened. I also can't deny the way I feel. Maybe I'm not there yet. Maybe I'll never be there. "Can't connect" may be too strong a word. I can empathize, but do I relate to them internally as in "I've been there"? I continue to struggle with this.

That's why I'm bringing this up; not for validation in either direction, but because I don't know.

Thanks for your insight,
~SK

best

Grew up with it so you see what can be.
Started to see changes so you know you are seeing warning signs.
So a smart thing to do would be ...take the warning signs serious and not reach a point that you understand the cravings that can come.

On the times that you had a few more then what you intended... there is your connection point of understanding. Multiply what happened in that moment to a point that it becomes the same every time you pick up and you will be seeing just how much and how fast alcohol progressive nature can grab you.

Music

Hey Kurt.
I think you ought to do just exactly what you're doing. The Big Book suggests doing what you're doing if you're not sure about your situation. You're looking at the problem and making your own decision, and that's also contained in the book. Keep up with the research and you'll get you answer, I'm sure.

Tazman53

Kurt this is all in your hands, you may not have a problem with the booze, it almost sounds as though due to your parents you have a fear of having a problem and as a result you jumped the gun.

Only you know that, we can only speculate, who knows you may not be an alcoholic or you may be and simply have not crossed that invisible line yet. As I am sure you have heard in the rooms, "Only you can say if you are an alcoholic or not".

Maybe just doing alanon right now may do you well, it would allow you to still stay in touch with the program and your AA friends. Alanon would let you continue to deal with your parents and possibly help you better stay in tune with your self in regards to your own drinking.

I am in AA as I am sure you know, I had crossed the line into full blown alcoholism, you will in time determine on your own whether you are or are not an alcoholic. Having not dealt with active alcoholic parents growing up (My father was a recovered alcoholic but he had quit before I was born) I really can not relate to where you may be at right now.

It could be that you do not relate to others in AA because you are an alcoholic who has not crossed that line..... or it may be you are not an alcoholic!

I can imagine being where you are at now is confusing.... I know it would be for me. You have a big advantage over many others whether you are an alcoholic or not, you know what to watch for and already have a willingness to do what it takes if you determine you are an alcoholic.

People in AA are people, all of us are different, some will not understand where you are at right now and may become stand offish, others will still be there for you if you need them and will remain friends.

I wish I had some experience with where you are at right now to share with you, but I don't. Good luck Kurt and stay in touch.

Signal30

Remember kurt what you put under your name, "cunning baffling, and powerful". Be careful.

I know the first few months I was going to AA, I was questioning if I was an alcoholic. Yes I was drinking everyday, and the amount I was drinking everyday was slowly growing. I was a beer drinker. I think beer was my "drug of choice", because growing up all the men in my family drank beer. My step father has a beer in his hand when he's doing work around the house, and would have a few when he would come home from work. My grandfather had a beer with him when he used to sit on the front porch in the summer listening to the baseball game on the radio, and would have a glass of wine with dinner. I thought I was no different having a beer when I would come home from work...at 8:30 AM, and a beer meaning over a 12 pack...over meaning more like 18 to 24.

Yeah that sounds like I'm a alcoholic now that I'm rationalizing. But I do worry a lot. Maybe all I needed was just the will power to quit. Maybe going to AA to this point was all I needed, and I don't need to go anymore. It sure would be nice to use the time I go to AA, to be able to do the other tasks, and errands I need to get done day to day. Maybe I can just take from here. I've heard a lot of fellow AA members saying that they got arrested, lost everything, went to drugs, and almost died. None of that ever happened to me. My mom doesnt think I'm an alcoholic. She was with me through childhood and knew I would always worry about getting or being sick, and see me making too big of a deal about the smallest things. Maybe I'm just doing that. Maybe she is right. Maybe I'm just browbeating this whole situation. Maybe I can even drink like a normal person now.

Or maybe not.

I'm guessing the latter.

If your enjoying the meetings, service work, and helping others than why stop?

More importantly did you start questioning if you are really an alcoholic after you started having a drink or two every once in a while?

Cunning, baffling, and powerful.

Be careful kurt.


Tom

barb dwyer

this is a completely foreign concept to me.

I had some of the longest term, publicly alcoholic alcoholics in this town telling me I was drinking out of control. And I just thought they didn't know wht they were talking about.

So ... I don't have any adivice, Kurt.
I like your posts, though .. I hope you're not going to stop them?

Slowbriety

fair enough.

Jfanagle

Kurt,
Look for the similarities; however don't be "disappointed" if you don't see enough. I think you are doing what any sensible person who is aware of the potential problem should be doing. BE AWARE of that potential and take the steps that are necessary to keep yourself safe and more importantly happy, joyous and free.

It is all about a life lived in control and a way of keeping that life manageable. If you’re AWARENESS of AA and what it CAN offer if you need it, then that may be your answer.

I know at least two or three members of my AA groups who I have always doubted are really alcoholics, but that is for them to determine not me. I think they simply find that the principals of AA are a good framework for them to live their lives in. Heck, how can self searching, honesty and willingness to get out of self and be helpful to others be a bad way to live?

We can use all the sanity and right thinking that we can get, in and out of the rooms as well as on this site. Keep coming back no matter what! You may be of help to others by continuing to share your perspective. Thanks for your writing.

Jon

NoMoBeer

I really appreciate your honesty. I also agree with Music -- you will find out one way or another -- either you ARE an alcoholic, and just not ready to surrender, or you are not.

BB p. 31-32: "We do not pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. ... try some controlled drinking ... try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be workth a bad case of the jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition..."

I can't believe someone wanted to make you take a drink -- and watch. Geesh, even I could "control" drinking if someone was watching, but at some point they'd have to leave, and then all bets would have been off for me...

I would just say "to thine ownself be true," and do what you feel is right. If you are indeed alcoholic, I pray that you gain that knowledge before it's too late... but I fully respect your opinion to gain a full understanding of yourself without being judged.

Ken

gypsytears

So what would be the harm in taking a break from going to AA meetings at this point? I'm probably in the minority here, but 9 months seems long enough to know if AA is right for your situation. In 9 months I think adapation would've occurred by now. Just my opinion.

baggervance

Atleast I dont have to wonder I know what I am. I cant relate to the way you drink.Only way I would have 1 drink at dinner if they ran out.As far as having a bottle in freezer and keeping it for awhile well it would have to be a big ass bottle.

miss communicat

kurt,

I'm sorry you are not at peace in your mind about drinking and AA. I hope that someday you find that peace and quiet.

For me, I know the debate is over. I stopped relatively early in my progression, at a point where I could still control and/or moderate the amount and frequency of drink. Those days were, for me, the most obsessed and tortured. I was not at peace the way I am now with 100% abstinence and acceptance that I do not drink.

Like I said, wishing you peace of mind, brother.

St_Kurt

Thanks so much for all of your responses. I've been reluctant to bring this up beyond my sponsor and a few friends because of ... I guess I'll call it "the strawberry principle" due to my earlier analogy.

The strawberry principle is what seems to be the basic catch 22 I feel like I'm dealing with. I went to AA to look for the answer to a question, but it seems like there is a basic conundrum within the group conscience of AA that makes it difficult to discuss the question "do I belong here?" At the beginning of meetings it is clearly stated that: "No one cannot diagnose you as an alcoholic - only you can decide that. " Okay, that's reasonable. Yet in my experience it is implied that:
- If you attend AA meetings, you are an alcoholic.
- If you stop attending AA meetings you have "gone back out" to "do more alcoholic research" which will lead to you turning up again more miserable than before.
- If you suggest that maybe this program isn't right for you, the response is that it's "your disease trying to fool you" and you had better start coming to more meetings.
No one has ever diagnosed me as an alcoholic in AA, but I see no possible avenue for disscussing the possiblity that I might not be one either. Regardless, it's sort of like, once you come in, you're committed. The strawberry principle says it's a one way street.

A lot of you had really cool insights and good things to say, and I wish I could quote you all but you'd be reading forever. I'm going to answer Tom's questions directly because they were direct questions and good ones.

This is exactly what keeps me going: service. I've always liked helping others and since AA gives me that opportunity, I like it. Then again, it's awfully egotistical of me to sit there, without the shared goal of "desires to stop drinking" and think "oh sure, I can do what I want in regards to alcohol; I'm just here to help out these poor alcoholics."

How much more selfcentered could I be thinking something like that? If I choose not to remain, I would find another outlet of service.

If it had, I wouldn't be saying or thinking any of this. I have the cleverest subconscious this side of ... uh... alcohol. Then it would have been more like, "Ah HA! CAUGHT in the act!"

Actually, I started questioning it several months ago when I couldn't attend AA meetings very often due to my work schedule. The less meetings I went to, the less I thought about drinking until I finally went to a meeting and started craving alcohol. I thought that was odd.

Another thing that happened was while I was working up in Chicago was that my parents relapsed and I ended up with nowhere to stay. I was working at the clinic during the day, living in my car or at homeless shelters at night. I could have drank if I wanted, but the only time I did was when I was out to dinner with a friend. We were out to a nice restaurant with a drink special that was a kind of fancy vodka I'd read about in a cooking magazine. I wanted to try it so we shared one.

I realized a few weeks ago that during that whole big crisis: working a challenging job with 10 hour + days, my parents making death threats etc., living in really uncomfortable situations at shelters where I was surrounded by drugs and alcohol, unable to make it to meetings, I actually did better than I did living at my own home going to meetings every day.

That got me thinking too.

~SK

Macphisto

no offense, but I'm REALLY not understanding you. All you have done is implied that you are not an alcoholic and have given us all kids of scenarios so as to convince us (or so it seems) that you are not an alcoholic.

And not to be rude, but why jump through all these hoops to convince complete strangers on the net that you are not like them? And why would anyone continue to go to AA after seeing that you are not "like them"??

I just don't get it.. If I felt like you do and controlled my drinking like you can I sure as heck wouldn't be spending my spare time going to AA meetings or reading Alcoholics message boards. The only reason I come to this board is because I know for a fact I'm an alcoholic. Most people on here either know or think they may be alcoholics.

In any case, I'm glad you don't have a problem with alcohol because it really sucks and it's a tough road.

Take care

baggervance

imho the only commitment in AA is to yourself.If you leave someone will still be there to open the doors and carry the message.This time I want to be someone who is there to give back repay what i've beeen given.Your strawberry principle only applies to a true alcoholic.I hope you are not wish I wasn't I think for me I have two chocies Go to AA or eventually wind up drunk.But if I did not have to go I would find something better than sitting in rooms sucking up smoke and drinking stale coffee.

St_Kurt

Seriously? Interesting. I must be conveying something I don't totally feel in real life. I feel like I'm asking "what if?" - the same question I was asking last December, but from a new perspective. Perhaps you feel that the answer to my question is "yeah, no, you're not an alcoholic. What the hell are you wasting your time for dumbass?"

You could very well be right.

But I don't feel my time has been wasted. And if you look at old posts of mine, there have been some times where I was seriously freaked out by what was happening to me. Enough that it's hard to just say, "yeah, just because I can do one thing now means I can always do it". I'm not trying to convince anybody but myself. (My long answers on this thread are because I realize you guys don't really much about know me. Most of my posts here are not about myself, but explanations of medical things.)

And don't forget - this isn't just a board for alcoholics. It's a board for the family and friends of alcoholics too and I most definitely fall into that catagory. There are a lot of really wise people here and reading about their lives and what they've gone through has helped me gain understanding about mine that those I care about.

That to me has been invaluable. And so for that reason I hope I remain welcome, regardless of how I decide to stock my freezer.

~SK

Peter

Hey Kurt, I too found your post a little enigmatic, I could probably also form the conclusion based on what you have written that maybe you are not really an alcoholic, but then that is not my job to decide.

You obviously have some unresolved issues going on in your life and if posting here can help you find some answers then by all means go ahead.People here are always willing to help but it's a lot easier to help when we know what the real problem is.

I hope you find some answers soon.