powerless vs. power
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: ny, ny
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Jon,
While your defensiveness is of my own doing, my last post was actually agreeing with what all of you have been saying. While we may have a different perspective, you claim to have power over the first drink, which is the power of choice. You admit powerlessness to gain that control. I choose power to gain that control. Looks like we are both having success. Tomato------toMAHto.
Happy Friday
While your defensiveness is of my own doing, my last post was actually agreeing with what all of you have been saying. While we may have a different perspective, you claim to have power over the first drink, which is the power of choice. You admit powerlessness to gain that control. I choose power to gain that control. Looks like we are both having success. Tomato------toMAHto.
Happy Friday
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 55
Does this about sum it up, Munch?...
Reading your last note above, would it be fair to draw this conclusion?
I choose to seek a power greater greater than myself by which I can live, that will solve my problem for me.
You choose to solve your problem by yourself, utilizing your own power.
No judgement intended, nor debate sought. You are quite correct in that we each have found something that is working. I am curious, though, if that seems to fit from your point of view.
Blessings
I choose to seek a power greater greater than myself by which I can live, that will solve my problem for me.
You choose to solve your problem by yourself, utilizing your own power.
No judgement intended, nor debate sought. You are quite correct in that we each have found something that is working. I am curious, though, if that seems to fit from your point of view.
Blessings
Last edited by SobrietyFirst; 05-23-2003 at 06:04 AM.
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Originally posted by Just Tired
SobrietyFirst,
Welcome to my world! My attempts to control another person is what drove me to a 12 step program. What you are describing is classic codependent behavior.
In order to come to terms with that knowledge I had to learn to accept people, places and things exactly as they were. Not the way I wished they would be.
Acceptance is the key. I don't know the page but you will find that in your Big Book. Whenever I am troubled it is because there is something I cannot accept.
SobrietyFirst,
Welcome to my world! My attempts to control another person is what drove me to a 12 step program. What you are describing is classic codependent behavior.
In order to come to terms with that knowledge I had to learn to accept people, places and things exactly as they were. Not the way I wished they would be.
Acceptance is the key. I don't know the page but you will find that in your Big Book. Whenever I am troubled it is because there is something I cannot accept.
[Originally posted by Just Tired
The important thing to remember is that your response to your friend is a reaction...it is automatic. Reactions can be changed when they are acknowledged.
The important thing to remember is that your response to your friend is a reaction...it is automatic. Reactions can be changed when they are acknowledged.
Bob
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Basement
Posts: 724
I have a whole different perspective here due to my experiences and what I have found works for me. Yes, I am powerless over alcohol after the first drink, but I AM powerless over the drink as well. I'll admit it, I am. That's why I have tools in my life to center me. My rationalization and justifications are capable of landing me in some dangerous situations. In the pit of my soul I am an alcoholic who wants to drink. That desire is crippled when I attend meetings and live a spiritual and sober way of life. It doesn't even surface and I don't think about it. I also find that when I attend meetings and I live a spiritual and sober way of life, I am happier, more productive, and at peace with myself and the world around me. I really like that especially compared to my life before I got into recovery and AA
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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The admission of "powerlessness" I make in step one quite clearly is about alcohol and the negative effects it has on my life.
The "powerless" mentioned in step one does not mean that I have no control over my own life and it does not absolve me from mistakes I have made in the past.
One of the great paradox of AA is that by my admission of "powerlessness" I am then empowered with the ability to say no to alcohol.
I will always be powerless over alcohol and the effects it has on me when I put that first drink inside me,but today I have the power to turn and walk away from that first drink and the power to take responsibility for my life.
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
If they thought they had any real power over alcohol why then would they need a programme like SMART,AVRT,or RR to show them how to find the power to stop drinking.
The concepts of AA are sometimes grossly misunderstood by people who have no real understanding of what the programme is about and trying to exalt the superiority of one programme over another is a spiritually weak thing to try and do.
In addition to admission to powerlessness over alcohol I also admit my powerlessness over "places and "people".
It is an admission I make on my own free will and not because it is any doctrine preached by AA.
I do it because it establishes healthy boundaries for me and keeps me safe.
"Taking back" any kind of power over these things especially alcohol would be a very foolish thing for me to do and would be the highest form of reservation I could have.
I would only be setting myself up for a relapse and ultimately signing my own death warrant.
Peter.
The "powerless" mentioned in step one does not mean that I have no control over my own life and it does not absolve me from mistakes I have made in the past.
One of the great paradox of AA is that by my admission of "powerlessness" I am then empowered with the ability to say no to alcohol.
I will always be powerless over alcohol and the effects it has on me when I put that first drink inside me,but today I have the power to turn and walk away from that first drink and the power to take responsibility for my life.
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
If they thought they had any real power over alcohol why then would they need a programme like SMART,AVRT,or RR to show them how to find the power to stop drinking.
The concepts of AA are sometimes grossly misunderstood by people who have no real understanding of what the programme is about and trying to exalt the superiority of one programme over another is a spiritually weak thing to try and do.
In addition to admission to powerlessness over alcohol I also admit my powerlessness over "places and "people".
It is an admission I make on my own free will and not because it is any doctrine preached by AA.
I do it because it establishes healthy boundaries for me and keeps me safe.
"Taking back" any kind of power over these things especially alcohol would be a very foolish thing for me to do and would be the highest form of reservation I could have.
I would only be setting myself up for a relapse and ultimately signing my own death warrant.
Peter.
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Peter:
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Atlanta
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I haven't read every word of this thread so please forgive me if I repeat or say something out of context (or say something stupid).
It seems to me that even if you decide to use the 12 step method to stop drinking, you are exerting power over your addiction. Therefore, you are NOT powerless. YOU made the decision to do whatever you did to keep from drinking, be it AA, RR or SMART. You react to every word you hear in a meeting or read in the Big Book and make a decision about it. It is impossible not to make a decision in any given situation (not to decide is to decide) - and that is power. Even if you relapse and then re-recover, you have still demonstrated power over alcohol by recovering again.
It seems contradictory to me that AA says you are powerless over alcohol when, in fact, you are exercising your power to not drink by whatever means, including going to meetings and believing that a higher power is handling your problem for you. To say you are powerless would also seem to contradict free will. If you don't have the power of your own response, you are just a puppet in a cruel game in which you have no choice and in which everything is already decided and cannot be changed. The book, "Man's Search for Meaning", by Victor Frankl, is an excellent book about just this topic.
It seems to me that even if you decide to use the 12 step method to stop drinking, you are exerting power over your addiction. Therefore, you are NOT powerless. YOU made the decision to do whatever you did to keep from drinking, be it AA, RR or SMART. You react to every word you hear in a meeting or read in the Big Book and make a decision about it. It is impossible not to make a decision in any given situation (not to decide is to decide) - and that is power. Even if you relapse and then re-recover, you have still demonstrated power over alcohol by recovering again.
It seems contradictory to me that AA says you are powerless over alcohol when, in fact, you are exercising your power to not drink by whatever means, including going to meetings and believing that a higher power is handling your problem for you. To say you are powerless would also seem to contradict free will. If you don't have the power of your own response, you are just a puppet in a cruel game in which you have no choice and in which everything is already decided and cannot be changed. The book, "Man's Search for Meaning", by Victor Frankl, is an excellent book about just this topic.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Originally posted by munchdaddy
Not so in all cases Peter. Actually, AVRT and SMART techniques were quite helpful in making the lapses before I quit less brutal...
Not so in all cases Peter. Actually, AVRT and SMART techniques were quite helpful in making the lapses before I quit less brutal...
By your own admission, your own "power" was not sufficient to keep you from drinking and you sought outside help.
You used a method (RR, Smart) that did not come from your own making.
You were not in control of the method until you found it and learned it.
This outside help created a change in your belief system that has now given you back your power of choice.
Congatulations. We're on the same damn page.
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jon,
It is a technique based on your own mental abilities. My own knowledge and application of learned techniques are what helped me quit. 8th grade, I didn't know algebra until I learned the techniques. That did not make me powerless over the equations.
It is a technique based on your own mental abilities. My own knowledge and application of learned techniques are what helped me quit. 8th grade, I didn't know algebra until I learned the techniques. That did not make me powerless over the equations.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
You were doing so well until just then...
If I don't know how to do something, let alone comprehend the concepts, I am powerless. Without at least some knowledge of the problem and it's possible solutions, I am powerless.
You stated: "It is a technique based on your own mental abilities..."
Yes, a technique that you had to first be exposed to, then learn and then practice.
Again, and by your own admission, you were not able to stop drinking without a "program". Call RR and SMART whatever you wish, but the fact is you sought outside help.
Choice and "power" alone were not enough for your alcohol problem, Munch. You needed help. You sought help.
Reality check: You simply did NOT quit drinking based on YOUR power. Stop the word games and the intellectual bullshi*. You had help. If you had power over alcohol and its effects, you wouldn't have needed the help.
Today you do have that power. And that's a good thing. I commend you.
If I don't know how to do something, let alone comprehend the concepts, I am powerless. Without at least some knowledge of the problem and it's possible solutions, I am powerless.
You stated: "It is a technique based on your own mental abilities..."
Yes, a technique that you had to first be exposed to, then learn and then practice.
Again, and by your own admission, you were not able to stop drinking without a "program". Call RR and SMART whatever you wish, but the fact is you sought outside help.
Choice and "power" alone were not enough for your alcohol problem, Munch. You needed help. You sought help.
Reality check: You simply did NOT quit drinking based on YOUR power. Stop the word games and the intellectual bullshi*. You had help. If you had power over alcohol and its effects, you wouldn't have needed the help.
Today you do have that power. And that's a good thing. I commend you.
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Location: ny, ny
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Reality check: You simply did NOT quit drinking based on YOUR power. Stop the word games and the intellectual bullshi*. You had help. If you had power over alcohol and its effects, you wouldn't have needed the help.
Maybe one cup of coffee would be a good idea for you jon.
Just a suggestion.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
LOL...
I am trying to cut back.
Question: If you cannot control the outcome of a problem or a situation, whether by lack of knowledge, training or tools, how can you possibly claim to have power over that problem?
My only concern with this thread munch, is that your claims are in fact mis-representations. You claim to have power over alcohol-something that you actually had to get help with.
Personally, I don't care where someone gets help. But back to square one again-if you are a real alcoholic, you probably can't or won't do it on your own. You need help.
Munch, you found your help/tools/education/power in a 12-step alternative. Awesome. It sure beats jails, institutions or death. I'm glad you found help, really I am. Just stop saying you "did it on your own." Because you didn't.
We don't hear about people that did it on their own. They just quit. They would have no reason to be participating on a recovery message board.
So munch, welcome to the SoberCommunity...
I am trying to cut back.
Question: If you cannot control the outcome of a problem or a situation, whether by lack of knowledge, training or tools, how can you possibly claim to have power over that problem?
My only concern with this thread munch, is that your claims are in fact mis-representations. You claim to have power over alcohol-something that you actually had to get help with.
Personally, I don't care where someone gets help. But back to square one again-if you are a real alcoholic, you probably can't or won't do it on your own. You need help.
Munch, you found your help/tools/education/power in a 12-step alternative. Awesome. It sure beats jails, institutions or death. I'm glad you found help, really I am. Just stop saying you "did it on your own." Because you didn't.
We don't hear about people that did it on their own. They just quit. They would have no reason to be participating on a recovery message board.
So munch, welcome to the SoberCommunity...
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: ny, ny
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Question: If you cannot control the outcome of a problem or a situation, whether by lack of knowledge, training or tools, how can you possibly claim to have power over that problem?
We don't hear about people that did it on their own. They just quit. They would have no reason to be participating on a recovery message board
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
I can control the outcome.
I used to lack control, learned some tecniques, and now have control.
My concern with this thread is that there are a whole lot of people out there who have there backs to the wall and feel hopeless.
I am curious about something. Since you believe we all still have power over alcohol(ism), why do you feel the necessity to "look out" for the new person who may be thinking about 12-step? Are you so much more powerful that you're a better judge of what's right for someone else? Or is it a need to "rescue" the poor, helpless, powerless souls from the "clutches" of AA?
And since we/they still have power, don't they have power to make decsions without being, in your eyes, wrong?
I would enjoy this converastion so much more munch if you could just be honest about your motivation for participating in it. Hidden agendas are a behavior I try to avoid today.
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Originally posted by screen3
It seems contradictory to me that AA says you are powerless over alcohol when, in fact, you are exercising your power to not drink by whatever means, including going to meetings and believing that a higher power is handling your problem for you.
It seems contradictory to me that AA says you are powerless over alcohol when, in fact, you are exercising your power to not drink by whatever means, including going to meetings and believing that a higher power is handling your problem for you.
AA says I am powerless over alcohol. AA also says that alcohol is but a symptom of a deeper malady that centers in my mind...selfishness and self-centeredness. These are the true problem of the alcoholic.
I cannot deny today that in the beginning, AA groups do in point of fact provide a variety of different alternatives to picking up a drink through social actions and activities. These are only effective if the person uses them. So yes, you are quite correct, we all do regain choice and power again over taking a drink, and yes, we all do in fact exercise our own power each time we do something other than pick up a drink. AA also tells me that will happen. What will never be restored is the power over the effect alcohol produces in the mind or body of an alcoholic.
As for the real malady, this selfishness and self-centeredness, the book of AA provides a set of tools and a program that it promises will do but one thing...remove the blocks between myself and a power greater than myself by which I can live and that will solve my real problem, that being selfishness and self-centeredness.
That power may be some deep faculty I am unaware of, and the book does suggest that that power resides within each. I don't know what it is, only that it does exist. When I take the actions necessary to clear myself of that selfishness, which includes asking this power to remove the flaws I find, something I can neither explain nor take credit for happens in me and my perceptions of the world around me.
Got a little long winded there, but what I am saying here is that alcohol isn't really the problem being addressed through AA. The real problem being addressed is my inclination to act out of selfish motives.
Blessings
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Jon,
In one post, you have summed up the attitude associated with some people who subscribe to the disease/allergy concept and its related powerlessness that I find so detremental . In your last post, you were unjustifiably judgmental, presumptuous, and accusatory. No agenda here, just a person with experience. Experience with what this forum claims to be about. A guy with success that is the antithesis of, and overtly threatening to, what you represent. Perhaps yours is the agenda that needs examination Jon.
You have certainly accomplished this for me.
In one post, you have summed up the attitude associated with some people who subscribe to the disease/allergy concept and its related powerlessness that I find so detremental . In your last post, you were unjustifiably judgmental, presumptuous, and accusatory. No agenda here, just a person with experience. Experience with what this forum claims to be about. A guy with success that is the antithesis of, and overtly threatening to, what you represent. Perhaps yours is the agenda that needs examination Jon.
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Question: How would I, or some of the others here, be received on the SMART boards?
SoberRecovery has had links to SMART for over 2 years now. Several links, (6) in fact. And SMART has links back to us. I have no problem with SMART or it's methods. My problem, and the agenda I brought up, is your need to come to a pro-12 step site to debate the beliefs of those who frequent it.
I don't need to debate you, munch.
I need to try and help those that want the help I have to offer. And what I got out of the deal is immeasurable.
A new, sober life.
With sober people and sober, healthy relationships.
Learned through others experiences and guidance.
For free and for fun.
Cool, huh?
I love my life today. And I will be forever grateful to those that showed me, through example, what powerlessness, disease, allergy and the like mean to someone who is alcoholic like me. It's those lessons and experiences I envisioned having on these boards for those that seek this place out.
They're more than definable words and terms, munch. They are experiences. And 12-step has taught me how to live sober and happy no matter what.
And munch, though you may think you're writing style can be "dogmatic and condescending at times", I happen to like it. Still wondering what drives you to continue to participate in a forum that, by your own accounts, you disagree with. Oh, and though I do like your writing style, your need to "gather up the troops" to justify and/or co-sign your beliefs and actions leaves much of your "example" to be desired.
By the way, I don't have kids. Yet.
SoberRecovery has had links to SMART for over 2 years now. Several links, (6) in fact. And SMART has links back to us. I have no problem with SMART or it's methods. My problem, and the agenda I brought up, is your need to come to a pro-12 step site to debate the beliefs of those who frequent it.
I don't need to debate you, munch.
I need to try and help those that want the help I have to offer. And what I got out of the deal is immeasurable.
A new, sober life.
With sober people and sober, healthy relationships.
Learned through others experiences and guidance.
For free and for fun.
Cool, huh?
I love my life today. And I will be forever grateful to those that showed me, through example, what powerlessness, disease, allergy and the like mean to someone who is alcoholic like me. It's those lessons and experiences I envisioned having on these boards for those that seek this place out.
They're more than definable words and terms, munch. They are experiences. And 12-step has taught me how to live sober and happy no matter what.
And munch, though you may think you're writing style can be "dogmatic and condescending at times", I happen to like it. Still wondering what drives you to continue to participate in a forum that, by your own accounts, you disagree with. Oh, and though I do like your writing style, your need to "gather up the troops" to justify and/or co-sign your beliefs and actions leaves much of your "example" to be desired.
By the way, I don't have kids. Yet.
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Location: Riverside, Ca.
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Munch
I have heard a lot from you, but still know very little about you,
could you share your story, What it was like when you were drinking, what happened and what you life is like now?
I still don't even know your sobriety date.
I look forward to hearing about your recovery.
I have heard a lot from you, but still know very little about you,
could you share your story, What it was like when you were drinking, what happened and what you life is like now?
I still don't even know your sobriety date.
I look forward to hearing about your recovery.
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dreaming Summer
Posts: 821
quote:
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Peter:
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think there's much point in beating the word "powerless" around any further.At one time it seems most of us lacked the ability to control our drinking.Then we found a way to live sober.
As an alcoholic I could never tell you what the outcome would be if I started drinking.Usually it led to blackouts.On increasingly rare occassions I might stop after a few.But it was unpredictable.
Nothing I have learned has changed that in the least.I could not have a few and then disarm the process.If I could it seems that would make me a normal or perhaps a problem drinker...not an alcoholic.Maybe that's the real difference between us.
You say you are concerned about people equating the word powerless with hopelessness.That seems a remote danger as most alcoholics are intelligent enough to comprehend how the principle applies to us.
A bigger risk seems to be your intent to tell an alcoholic that maybe he can learn to stop after a few drinks,as you say you did.That might not be a danger to a problem drinker but to an alcoholic it could be dangerous indeed.We sometimes suggest an attempt at controlled drinking if someone is not sure they are alcoholic.But we never suggest that an alcoholic might succeed at controlled drinking.It's been our experience that it just doesn't work.
phoenix
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Peter:
Even people who sought out the help of other programmes like AVRT,SMART or RR have to admit that at some point they too were "powerless" over alcohol.
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Originally posted by munchdaddy
Not so in all cases Peter. Actually, AVRT and SMART techniques were quite helpful in making the lapses before I quit less brutal (i.e. 3 dinks and not 33). Having the understanding that I am not powerless and some mental techniques based on disputing irrational beliefs helped. If I had a drink and that voice in my head said “now lets have 20”, I could effectively disarm that thought process. While this may not work for everyone, I figured you should be taught what those techniques are all about.
Not so in all cases Peter. Actually, AVRT and SMART techniques were quite helpful in making the lapses before I quit less brutal (i.e. 3 dinks and not 33). Having the understanding that I am not powerless and some mental techniques based on disputing irrational beliefs helped. If I had a drink and that voice in my head said “now lets have 20”, I could effectively disarm that thought process. While this may not work for everyone, I figured you should be taught what those techniques are all about.
As an alcoholic I could never tell you what the outcome would be if I started drinking.Usually it led to blackouts.On increasingly rare occassions I might stop after a few.But it was unpredictable.
Nothing I have learned has changed that in the least.I could not have a few and then disarm the process.If I could it seems that would make me a normal or perhaps a problem drinker...not an alcoholic.Maybe that's the real difference between us.
You say you are concerned about people equating the word powerless with hopelessness.That seems a remote danger as most alcoholics are intelligent enough to comprehend how the principle applies to us.
A bigger risk seems to be your intent to tell an alcoholic that maybe he can learn to stop after a few drinks,as you say you did.That might not be a danger to a problem drinker but to an alcoholic it could be dangerous indeed.We sometimes suggest an attempt at controlled drinking if someone is not sure they are alcoholic.But we never suggest that an alcoholic might succeed at controlled drinking.It's been our experience that it just doesn't work.
phoenix
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