Disease or Not? Part 2
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 55
Disease or Not? Part 2
WOW...I never would have believed that reading a debate on a subject such as this would assist me so very much. I found some of the ideas a bit disturbing, particularly as they related to questions of powerlessness and choice.
You see, I found I could not entirely disagree with the ideas presented by muchdaddy, screen3, justaround and others. That disturbed me as it made me think about my experience and beliefs, and finding no ready answer within myself, I began to slip into the "my recovery is better than your recovery" kind of mind set. I have been so distrubed that I have had to pray about it to keep an open mind, asking for guidance and direction.
Having spoken with a man who rocked my world last night, I now see that my ideas about powerlessness and choice as adopted in my experience versus what is written in the book of AA have not been in alignment...I missed the point completely.
I am powerless over alcohol ONCE I TAKE THAT FIRST DRINK. With alcohol in my system, something happens in my body and mind that I cannot explain. That's the physical response, and my experience confirms that as being true for me. My will power, my thinking, my intentions, none of that means a damn thing once I take that first drink. Simple and crystal clear to me now.
So what about my choice over taking that first drink? Hmmm....gets a little tricky here, doesn't it? Am I powerless over making that choice or not?
Well...lo and behold, the answer depends upon how far along I am in my drinking career, my alcohol consumption, my physical/mental response to alcohol, my condition as an alcoholic...dare I say it...my disease..., as to how effective my choice over taking that first drink really is. Hmmm...that doesn't really sound like what I've heard in AA. Can it be true?
My experience tells me that over time, my choice over taking that first drink became less and less effective, holding less and less power over the act of taking my hand and using it to lift that first drink 18 inches from table to mouth. In the beginning, I could think about it with the drink in hand and put it down most of the time. Later, though, I put the drink down less and less often until I reached a point that no matter what I thought about, no matter what choice I made in my mind while holding that drink, my arm traveled that distance and I would begin again. No effective mental defense, NO MEMORY OF THE SUFFERING OF THE DAY BEFORE. In short, my choice over taking the first drink grew less and less effective until it held no power at all. Something else had a firm grip upon me that my mind could not combat, nor muster any defense against.
How in the hell could that be? How in the hell could my choice loose all effectiveness / power over the simple act of taking a single drink? What in the world is that about? Hmmm....gets a little tricky here as well, doesn't it?
My experience tells me the answer is an utter lack of ability to live life on life's terms. My experience tells me that PAIN, and an inability to face it, FEAR, and an utter lack of ability to face it, RESENTMENT / ANGER, and an utter lack of ability to face it...all centering in my mind BTW...are what makes it possible for my choice to loose its effectiveness regarding taking that first drink.
And what has my response been in trying to alleviate this discomfort...dare I say it...this DIS-EASE...exercising my will to control people, places, and things...using my power to try to control and change the people, places and things around me. My mind tells me that THESE are the things that are the source of my discomfort. THESE are the things that I must change in order to find relief and happiness. THESE are the things that if I could just control, THEN could I face life.
And yet, my experience confirms again and again that I cannot change them, that they are what they are and will likely never change, and certainly won't change by my choice and will and exercise of power. But my mind refuses to acknowledge that, cannot accept that inevitable fact no matter how much effort I put forth to convince myself otherwise. My mind WILL, though, accept the effect alcohol produces that tells me all is well.
Why?...well, because it produces an effect inside of me. It changes me within. It alleviates that discomfort I feel, and as my mind grows more and more accustomed to feeling that effect, it looses touch more and more with reality, with what is true and what is false. Strange as it may sound, my mind knows that the change must happen within me, but cannot see a way to effect that change without alcohol.
So...where does that leave me today?
Well...I am powerless over alcohol once I take that first drink...no doubt about it. I am ALSO powerless over the people, places and things in the world about me, meaning despite my best efforts and intentions, I cannot change them in any way...not one little bit. So then, what about an effective solution?
That is something each must settle for themself. As for me, the solution must come in the form of teaching me, of guiding me towards a way of living that frees me from being literally in a state of being dominated by or of dominating the people, places and things around me. That means finding a solution that teaches me the proper use of my will, the proper use of my choice, that will re-educate my mind to proper thinking, that will restore and provide a readily available and effective means of accessing a sense of peace and serenity...in short, a solution that will teach me how to live without a bottle. For me, that requires a power greater than me, and it aint people, places or things, nor even myself. Self reliance is a fine thing provided I keep it in perspective and see it will only carry me so far.
I know today that I am both powerful and powerless. I know today that I have a choice, and yet I don't have a choice. I know today that alcohol both is and is not my problem, the the true source of my problem lies within me, not outside of me.
I know that AA offers a set of tools that do in fact work for me, and it isn't necessarily the people who provide the help. In fact, many **** me off, but the tools are very useful and do effect a lasting change. I know that the book of AA contains lots of useful information in many layers and depths of meaning. And I know that I must do this in the company of others, as in the end, life is in large part about people and my relationship to them.
And I know it isn't for everybody :-) Pride does in fact get blasted away peice by peice. Don't much like that, but then who does. In the end, if it frees me from this bondage of myself, then it is worth it in the end despite the discomfort I experience along the way.
Blessings.
You see, I found I could not entirely disagree with the ideas presented by muchdaddy, screen3, justaround and others. That disturbed me as it made me think about my experience and beliefs, and finding no ready answer within myself, I began to slip into the "my recovery is better than your recovery" kind of mind set. I have been so distrubed that I have had to pray about it to keep an open mind, asking for guidance and direction.
Having spoken with a man who rocked my world last night, I now see that my ideas about powerlessness and choice as adopted in my experience versus what is written in the book of AA have not been in alignment...I missed the point completely.
I am powerless over alcohol ONCE I TAKE THAT FIRST DRINK. With alcohol in my system, something happens in my body and mind that I cannot explain. That's the physical response, and my experience confirms that as being true for me. My will power, my thinking, my intentions, none of that means a damn thing once I take that first drink. Simple and crystal clear to me now.
So what about my choice over taking that first drink? Hmmm....gets a little tricky here, doesn't it? Am I powerless over making that choice or not?
Well...lo and behold, the answer depends upon how far along I am in my drinking career, my alcohol consumption, my physical/mental response to alcohol, my condition as an alcoholic...dare I say it...my disease..., as to how effective my choice over taking that first drink really is. Hmmm...that doesn't really sound like what I've heard in AA. Can it be true?
My experience tells me that over time, my choice over taking that first drink became less and less effective, holding less and less power over the act of taking my hand and using it to lift that first drink 18 inches from table to mouth. In the beginning, I could think about it with the drink in hand and put it down most of the time. Later, though, I put the drink down less and less often until I reached a point that no matter what I thought about, no matter what choice I made in my mind while holding that drink, my arm traveled that distance and I would begin again. No effective mental defense, NO MEMORY OF THE SUFFERING OF THE DAY BEFORE. In short, my choice over taking the first drink grew less and less effective until it held no power at all. Something else had a firm grip upon me that my mind could not combat, nor muster any defense against.
How in the hell could that be? How in the hell could my choice loose all effectiveness / power over the simple act of taking a single drink? What in the world is that about? Hmmm....gets a little tricky here as well, doesn't it?
My experience tells me the answer is an utter lack of ability to live life on life's terms. My experience tells me that PAIN, and an inability to face it, FEAR, and an utter lack of ability to face it, RESENTMENT / ANGER, and an utter lack of ability to face it...all centering in my mind BTW...are what makes it possible for my choice to loose its effectiveness regarding taking that first drink.
And what has my response been in trying to alleviate this discomfort...dare I say it...this DIS-EASE...exercising my will to control people, places, and things...using my power to try to control and change the people, places and things around me. My mind tells me that THESE are the things that are the source of my discomfort. THESE are the things that I must change in order to find relief and happiness. THESE are the things that if I could just control, THEN could I face life.
And yet, my experience confirms again and again that I cannot change them, that they are what they are and will likely never change, and certainly won't change by my choice and will and exercise of power. But my mind refuses to acknowledge that, cannot accept that inevitable fact no matter how much effort I put forth to convince myself otherwise. My mind WILL, though, accept the effect alcohol produces that tells me all is well.
Why?...well, because it produces an effect inside of me. It changes me within. It alleviates that discomfort I feel, and as my mind grows more and more accustomed to feeling that effect, it looses touch more and more with reality, with what is true and what is false. Strange as it may sound, my mind knows that the change must happen within me, but cannot see a way to effect that change without alcohol.
So...where does that leave me today?
Well...I am powerless over alcohol once I take that first drink...no doubt about it. I am ALSO powerless over the people, places and things in the world about me, meaning despite my best efforts and intentions, I cannot change them in any way...not one little bit. So then, what about an effective solution?
That is something each must settle for themself. As for me, the solution must come in the form of teaching me, of guiding me towards a way of living that frees me from being literally in a state of being dominated by or of dominating the people, places and things around me. That means finding a solution that teaches me the proper use of my will, the proper use of my choice, that will re-educate my mind to proper thinking, that will restore and provide a readily available and effective means of accessing a sense of peace and serenity...in short, a solution that will teach me how to live without a bottle. For me, that requires a power greater than me, and it aint people, places or things, nor even myself. Self reliance is a fine thing provided I keep it in perspective and see it will only carry me so far.
I know today that I am both powerful and powerless. I know today that I have a choice, and yet I don't have a choice. I know today that alcohol both is and is not my problem, the the true source of my problem lies within me, not outside of me.
I know that AA offers a set of tools that do in fact work for me, and it isn't necessarily the people who provide the help. In fact, many **** me off, but the tools are very useful and do effect a lasting change. I know that the book of AA contains lots of useful information in many layers and depths of meaning. And I know that I must do this in the company of others, as in the end, life is in large part about people and my relationship to them.
And I know it isn't for everybody :-) Pride does in fact get blasted away peice by peice. Don't much like that, but then who does. In the end, if it frees me from this bondage of myself, then it is worth it in the end despite the discomfort I experience along the way.
Blessings.
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: scottsdale az
Posts: 118
Sobrietyfirst, well to hell with you to. So disturbed to think the way that I do????? You have no idea who the hell I am. "My recovery is better than your recovery"??? What in the hell does that mean? READ MY ******* POSTS BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I have stated too many times, that WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU....NA, AA, CA, RR, whatever. I don't even care! WHo is the one arguing the whole disease concept???? WHO??? YOU! I don't care whether or not it is. YOU HAVE TO PRAY FOR GUIDANCE BECAUSE MY IDEAS ARE DISTURBING?!??!?! How hopeless ARE you??? It makes me sick. Whatever.......
I'm feeling pissy, had to get it out. I did and I'm done. Have a good day
I'm feeling pissy, had to get it out. I did and I'm done. Have a good day
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: N.Tx.
Posts: 22
Damn Justaround, what happened dude?
My question is to anyone that thinks they have a disease.
If it became physically impossible for you to obtain alcohol, do you think you would you still have a disease?
My question is to anyone that thinks they have a disease.
If it became physically impossible for you to obtain alcohol, do you think you would you still have a disease?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dreaming Summer
Posts: 821
Justaround...slow down for a minute and take a deep breath...ok.I think all S-First was really trying to say was that you made him think.Not that there was anything wrong in your ideas...more like it disturbed some of his complacent assumptions.
That's a good thing...even a compliment.There was enough merit in your ideas to make him consider them deeply.
I could be mistaken.Words on a screen are easily misinterpreted.But I think it was meant in a positive way.I will say that your ideas have that effect on me.You have gained the ability to express yourself without intolerance towards others.You share what works for you...and you do it well.It makes me think.
Even when I don't agree with you,I have come to respect your input and I'm not the only one who does.As I said before...obviously you are doing something right
phoenix
That's a good thing...even a compliment.There was enough merit in your ideas to make him consider them deeply.
I could be mistaken.Words on a screen are easily misinterpreted.But I think it was meant in a positive way.I will say that your ideas have that effect on me.You have gained the ability to express yourself without intolerance towards others.You share what works for you...and you do it well.It makes me think.
Even when I don't agree with you,I have come to respect your input and I'm not the only one who does.As I said before...obviously you are doing something right
phoenix
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Hey Just?
Read this sentence again, because I think you mis-interpreting the post:
"You see, I found I could not entirely disagree with the ideas presented by muchdaddy, screen3, justaround and others."
In other words, he AGREES with at least some of your ideas and opinions.
It's a very well-thought post. Please consider editing your response.
Read this sentence again, because I think you mis-interpreting the post:
"You see, I found I could not entirely disagree with the ideas presented by muchdaddy, screen3, justaround and others."
In other words, he AGREES with at least some of your ideas and opinions.
It's a very well-thought post. Please consider editing your response.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Originally posted by DallasHawkins
Damn Justaround, what happened dude?
My question is to anyone that thinks they have a disease.
If it became physically impossible for you to obtain alcohol, do you think you would you still have a disease?
Damn Justaround, what happened dude?
My question is to anyone that thinks they have a disease.
If it became physically impossible for you to obtain alcohol, do you think you would you still have a disease?
Obsessive thoughts are a component of a Mental Illness. If that's not a disease to you, that's ok. It is to me, it works for me.
I have also learned that it is not an excuse for my behavior, nor does it absolve me of any responsibility for my actions.
It just is. And it reminds me, daily, that I must take action to prevent the obsession from taking hold. In other words, believing i have a disease has made me more responsible, not less.
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: ny, ny
Posts: 46
I was asked earlier by ninerfan, how I dealt with picking up the pieces once I quit drinking. (btw, I am an eagles fan, see you in the playoffs punk! ) I dealt with these issues head on. I looked the people I hurt in the eyes and took responsibility for what I had done. If were to have said to these people, forgive me I am sick, they probably would have. Problem is I wouldn’t have earned it. No, I took the hard way. I stood up and took responsibility for what I had done and responsibility for fixing what I needed to. I fully admit I had no one to blame but myself. By doing this, I have since earned the forgiveness of those people, and have now earned a level of trust that I don’t think that they would have given to a person with a sickness that they are powerless against.
SF,
You got me. I give. You are in fact SICK. Enjoy your victory.
) I dealt with these issues head on. I looked the people I hurt in the eyes and took responsibility for what I had done. If were to have said to these people, forgive me I am sick, they probably would have. Problem is I wouldn’t have earned it. No, I took the hard way. I stood up and took responsibility for what I had done and responsibility for fixing what I needed to. I fully admit I had no one to blame but myself. By doing this, I have since earned the forgiveness of those people, and have now earned a level of trust that I don’t think that they would have given to a person with a sickness that they are powerless against.SF,
You got me. I give. You are in fact SICK. Enjoy your victory.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Munchdaddy...You just described AA's 8th and 9th steps. That is what I did too. Go to the people I had harmed and took responsibility. And tried to set things right. Kind of ironic huh....
As to the Eagles...Are they still playing Pro Football...
By the way, that was a great post Sobriety First. Not much to argue with.
As to the Eagles...Are they still playing Pro Football...
By the way, that was a great post Sobriety First. Not much to argue with.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Basement
Posts: 724
I haven't been in this debate at all but I like SF's post. It was very thought provoking. It's fun to analyze the meaning of life and debate whatever with eachother.
I'm going to make it real simple. No text book, no definitions, just plain reality. I almost died in the hospital from dehydration and malnutrition before I made it to treatment. If I had listened to all the hallucinations and delusions I had I definitely would be dead.
I got sober and had 2 months shy of 5 yrs. I had a great job, an awesome condo, and I met this gorgeous guy and I thought life was pretty damn great. The guy drank but not alcoholically. One night we were out and and I picked up his drink, looked at it for a second and thought, I shouldn't do that, but I couldn't help it and my hand made that move from the table to my mouth. That was it, it was all over. I drank for 3 months, totalled my car, lost my job, got arrested because I stupidly called the police because when I came to in my car it was all crashed and I thought someone did a hit and run. Turns out the only thing that hit my car was a pole and I was the only one there. Blood alcohol level still enough to arrest.
All I know is that thank god I had another recovery in me. Most don't make it back. Damn right I'm powerless. I don't have to be in pain, I'm an alcoholic and I always will be.
I'm going to make it real simple. No text book, no definitions, just plain reality. I almost died in the hospital from dehydration and malnutrition before I made it to treatment. If I had listened to all the hallucinations and delusions I had I definitely would be dead.
I got sober and had 2 months shy of 5 yrs. I had a great job, an awesome condo, and I met this gorgeous guy and I thought life was pretty damn great. The guy drank but not alcoholically. One night we were out and and I picked up his drink, looked at it for a second and thought, I shouldn't do that, but I couldn't help it and my hand made that move from the table to my mouth. That was it, it was all over. I drank for 3 months, totalled my car, lost my job, got arrested because I stupidly called the police because when I came to in my car it was all crashed and I thought someone did a hit and run. Turns out the only thing that hit my car was a pole and I was the only one there. Blood alcohol level still enough to arrest.
All I know is that thank god I had another recovery in me. Most don't make it back. Damn right I'm powerless. I don't have to be in pain, I'm an alcoholic and I always will be.
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere, MA
Posts: 6
this is fascinating... i wonder, is there a way to link this to the newcomer's page? i stumbled upon this link and find it very intriguing for someone in my position.
basically, i've just recently started to look very hard at my drinking habits. terms like alcoholic, problem drinker, episodic, disease, allergy, etc. have been fighting themselvs inside my head for the past couple weeks. reading through the opinions and thoughts of those who have been investigating their own compulsions/actions/reactions/whatever you choose to call it and/or discovered a way to correct their situation is a great way to start my own self-analysis.
i sincerely hope you'll continue this debate... it's very thought provoking and helpful to me... the more i read, the more i learn...
basically, i've just recently started to look very hard at my drinking habits. terms like alcoholic, problem drinker, episodic, disease, allergy, etc. have been fighting themselvs inside my head for the past couple weeks. reading through the opinions and thoughts of those who have been investigating their own compulsions/actions/reactions/whatever you choose to call it and/or discovered a way to correct their situation is a great way to start my own self-analysis.
i sincerely hope you'll continue this debate... it's very thought provoking and helpful to me... the more i read, the more i learn...
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Except what Munchdaddy? Ecxept that if I hadn't made amends or tried to I would still be carrying that crap around with me? No thank you. Not only was it the right thing to do for the people I had harmed, it was riht for me. After I took my 9th step was when I began to feel free, and clean, and new again.
I wont bore you with step talk...
I wont bore you with step talk...
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dreaming Summer
Posts: 821
I'd like to see this one remain an intelligent discussion.SobrietyFirst set the tone for that by sharing personal experience,strength and hope without belittling anyone.That's a good model to follow in any discussion.
I know that at some point I lost the power of choice.I somehow got the idea that if I could just get through a day clean maybe I'd be ok.I had not been to treatment and knew nothing of recovery...no meetings...nuthin'.It was just an idea.
And I kicked it alone in a tackroom on a California racetrack.Had I known what I was in for I would never have dared to attempt it.In short order I developed an insomnia that kept me awake for days,I lost 30 pounds and became malnourished,and I put a pretty fair sized dent in my sanity.I had hallucinations and delusions.My family had to finally come to my rescue because the tough and independent woman who had traveled the country for ten years could not board a Greyhound and travel alone.
I spent weeks in the hospital picking up the pieces.In some ways I am still picking up the pieces,but on the whole I have a remarkably wonderful life.I'm lucky to be alive.
Do I have a disease? After 13 years sober I'm still not sure...not 100%.There are aspects of the disease concept that make sense and some that seem a bit off.Is it an allergy then? Again I don't know for certain.It seems like a bit of both, given the fact that I never reacted normally to any of the substances I used.
I don't feel sick today or particularly powerless.I can choose to stay in recovery.You could call it remission...or say it's arrested.Or you could just say I don't drink.I know one thing with absolute certainty.I don't react to alcohol or drugs the way other people do.Therefore it's not safe for me to use them...not ever again.
And I know this as well.I don't ever want to be caught up in that misery again.For me, AA was the ticket out of Hell,and the price has not been too high.It works for me,even though I am not entirely sure of some things and even though I don't agree with everything I hear at meetings.It works anyway.
But it doesn't work for everyone.Some people find other solutions and that's great.I like to hear about what works for other people.I like it even better if they can tell me what works for them without knocking what works for me.
I learn a lot from people who don't think like me.I'm not afraid of or threatened by new ideas.But I have yet to learn anything from someone while they are insulting my beliefs.And I have yet to teach anyone anything by insulting theirs....so I try really hard not to do that.I don't always succeed...but I try
phoenix
I know that at some point I lost the power of choice.I somehow got the idea that if I could just get through a day clean maybe I'd be ok.I had not been to treatment and knew nothing of recovery...no meetings...nuthin'.It was just an idea.
And I kicked it alone in a tackroom on a California racetrack.Had I known what I was in for I would never have dared to attempt it.In short order I developed an insomnia that kept me awake for days,I lost 30 pounds and became malnourished,and I put a pretty fair sized dent in my sanity.I had hallucinations and delusions.My family had to finally come to my rescue because the tough and independent woman who had traveled the country for ten years could not board a Greyhound and travel alone.
I spent weeks in the hospital picking up the pieces.In some ways I am still picking up the pieces,but on the whole I have a remarkably wonderful life.I'm lucky to be alive.
Do I have a disease? After 13 years sober I'm still not sure...not 100%.There are aspects of the disease concept that make sense and some that seem a bit off.Is it an allergy then? Again I don't know for certain.It seems like a bit of both, given the fact that I never reacted normally to any of the substances I used.
I don't feel sick today or particularly powerless.I can choose to stay in recovery.You could call it remission...or say it's arrested.Or you could just say I don't drink.I know one thing with absolute certainty.I don't react to alcohol or drugs the way other people do.Therefore it's not safe for me to use them...not ever again.
And I know this as well.I don't ever want to be caught up in that misery again.For me, AA was the ticket out of Hell,and the price has not been too high.It works for me,even though I am not entirely sure of some things and even though I don't agree with everything I hear at meetings.It works anyway.
But it doesn't work for everyone.Some people find other solutions and that's great.I like to hear about what works for other people.I like it even better if they can tell me what works for them without knocking what works for me.
I learn a lot from people who don't think like me.I'm not afraid of or threatened by new ideas.But I have yet to learn anything from someone while they are insulting my beliefs.And I have yet to teach anyone anything by insulting theirs....so I try really hard not to do that.I don't always succeed...but I try
phoenix
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: scottsdale az
Posts: 118
Apology to SobrietyFirst and everyone else
SobrietyFirst,
I think that I need a restraining order put on me from everone else today. I'm very sorry about that last post (this goes for everyone else who had to read it as well). I saw my name mentioned in your post, read a couple lines, was looking to take my anger out on someone (should have been something), and I guess that you were the one I was to immaturely do so. I have felt very aggresive the last two days after getting off meds (No...me? On meds??? Couldn't be). Looks like it is pretty obvious I don't have the tools for everything yet. See how easy I could have relapsed right there if it was more serious? I decided to take a day off and rest since I wasn't feeling so good and I did. Once I woke up I decided that I would apologize after realizing what an immature thing I did. I am very sorry. I was being an a$$hole. You were only trying to get something across and I decided I would try and get some resentment going for no good reason. I guess that I need meds for my A.D.H.D. insteed.........
I think that I need a restraining order put on me from everone else today. I'm very sorry about that last post (this goes for everyone else who had to read it as well). I saw my name mentioned in your post, read a couple lines, was looking to take my anger out on someone (should have been something), and I guess that you were the one I was to immaturely do so. I have felt very aggresive the last two days after getting off meds (No...me? On meds??? Couldn't be). Looks like it is pretty obvious I don't have the tools for everything yet. See how easy I could have relapsed right there if it was more serious? I decided to take a day off and rest since I wasn't feeling so good and I did. Once I woke up I decided that I would apologize after realizing what an immature thing I did. I am very sorry. I was being an a$$hole. You were only trying to get something across and I decided I would try and get some resentment going for no good reason. I guess that I need meds for my A.D.H.D. insteed.........
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 55
No Harm Done
Just Around,
No worries...I understand completely where you are coming from, and where you were coming from earlier. No harm done.
I'll add that I have begun to think deeply about the assumptions I have made since coming to AA. Your posts, and those by all others in this and the other thread, make me really consider why I am reacting to what I read the way I do. A resentment, or even a fear, is a resentment, or even a fear, after all... whether it is gained from something someone did or said directly, or gained in response to something I think they did or said makes little difference. Those things, when left unattended, will eventually bring me down :-)
Muchdaddy,
I also find your ideas, when expressed from your experience and perspective, very thought provoking as well. I DO care about hearing that, as questioning something, or even challenging something, is not necessarily a bad thing. I DO NOT care to hear what you think about me, or anyone else for that matter, as it is none of my business and makes little difference to me.
I appreciate your posts on this subject, and am curious about your perspectives regarding self reliance. I am beginning to see that in a really different light, and am wondering what you will offer in that regard from your experience.
Stephanie,
I truly enjoy your thoughts, and have found your posts very instructive and enlightening. I completely agree it is fun to disect and analyze stuff when appropriate. I'm just glad to have a different set of tools and people to be able to do it with. Much more healthy that way, IMHO :-)
Phoenix,
On the nose..."complacent assumptions" captures it nicely :-) I also appreciated the peice of your story you shared.
Everyone,
This debate and its results are helping lots of people besides me, just as it has been, in case you didn't notice. There's truly something powerful that happens, even here online, when passions flare and people share their varying experiences. Despite our differences, none of us can safely drink and will have that forever in common, no matter what else transpires, how we express it, or how we define it or label it :-)
Blessings
No worries...I understand completely where you are coming from, and where you were coming from earlier. No harm done.
I'll add that I have begun to think deeply about the assumptions I have made since coming to AA. Your posts, and those by all others in this and the other thread, make me really consider why I am reacting to what I read the way I do. A resentment, or even a fear, is a resentment, or even a fear, after all... whether it is gained from something someone did or said directly, or gained in response to something I think they did or said makes little difference. Those things, when left unattended, will eventually bring me down :-)
Muchdaddy,
I also find your ideas, when expressed from your experience and perspective, very thought provoking as well. I DO care about hearing that, as questioning something, or even challenging something, is not necessarily a bad thing. I DO NOT care to hear what you think about me, or anyone else for that matter, as it is none of my business and makes little difference to me.
I appreciate your posts on this subject, and am curious about your perspectives regarding self reliance. I am beginning to see that in a really different light, and am wondering what you will offer in that regard from your experience.
Stephanie,
I truly enjoy your thoughts, and have found your posts very instructive and enlightening. I completely agree it is fun to disect and analyze stuff when appropriate. I'm just glad to have a different set of tools and people to be able to do it with. Much more healthy that way, IMHO :-)
Phoenix,
On the nose..."complacent assumptions" captures it nicely :-) I also appreciated the peice of your story you shared.
Everyone,
This debate and its results are helping lots of people besides me, just as it has been, in case you didn't notice. There's truly something powerful that happens, even here online, when passions flare and people share their varying experiences. Despite our differences, none of us can safely drink and will have that forever in common, no matter what else transpires, how we express it, or how we define it or label it :-)
Blessings
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Basement
Posts: 724
What do you mean a different set of tools and people to be able to do it with. Did I miss something? Was there a new recovery program entered into this debate?? I admit I haven't even read the first disease thread. It sort of looked like it was going to give me a headache. Anyway, I thought you were in AA...I guess I was mistaken.
Although I must say, you have a way with words and express yourself extremely well. Have you ever considered writing as a career???
Although I must say, you have a way with words and express yourself extremely well. Have you ever considered writing as a career???
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 55
Quote:
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What do you mean a different set of tools and people to be able to do it with. Did I miss something? Was there a new recovery program entered into this debate?? I admit I haven't even read the first disease thread. It sort of looked like it was going to give me a headache. Anyway, I thought you were in AA...I guess I was mistaken.
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He he he...I meant the tools provided through AA...they're alot different than what I have used before. They provide some clarity to my thought process by aiding me in removing the blocks in my mind. Sounds wierd, but it does work that way for me provided I look to my experience.
As for the people...as in not my drinking buddy debate society :-)
You weren't mistaken...I'm in AA.
Quote:
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Although I must say, you have a way with words and express yourself extremely well. Have you ever considered writing as a career???
__________________________________________________ _
Thanks for the words here. I've toyed with the idea, but wouldn't know how to begin. I've been looking for a writing group to get involved with here in Austin, as it is an idea that is remerging since getting sober.
Blessings
__________________________________________________
What do you mean a different set of tools and people to be able to do it with. Did I miss something? Was there a new recovery program entered into this debate?? I admit I haven't even read the first disease thread. It sort of looked like it was going to give me a headache. Anyway, I thought you were in AA...I guess I was mistaken.
__________________________________________________ _
He he he...I meant the tools provided through AA...they're alot different than what I have used before. They provide some clarity to my thought process by aiding me in removing the blocks in my mind. Sounds wierd, but it does work that way for me provided I look to my experience.
As for the people...as in not my drinking buddy debate society :-)
You weren't mistaken...I'm in AA.
Quote:
__________________________________________________ _
Although I must say, you have a way with words and express yourself extremely well. Have you ever considered writing as a career???
__________________________________________________ _
Thanks for the words here. I've toyed with the idea, but wouldn't know how to begin. I've been looking for a writing group to get involved with here in Austin, as it is an idea that is remerging since getting sober.
Blessings
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Basement
Posts: 724
A writing group is a great idea. It's a very hard field to break into, you're right. My father retired and decided he would totally switch gears and become a writer. He actually just started writing and eventually it turned into a book and he's had it published. He's writing his second one now. He took some adult education courses but mostly learned as he went along by finding an editor and letting him rip apart his writing over and over and over. The only thing is that it would probably be a daunting task if you had a full time job as well. I guess it doesn't have to be done overnight. You would just have to wait to be famous for a few years
. You better invite me to the book signing!!!!
. You better invite me to the book signing!!!!
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