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Different For Women?

Old 07-01-2007, 11:29 AM
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Different For Women?

This sounds like a good book 'Happy hours : alcohol in a woman's life', it's available on Amazon by Devon Jersild. This is from the Amazon web site and I'd be interested in hearing any feedback on this info.

After a slow start filled with tedious statistics, this noteworthy examination of women and alcohol delivers compelling personal stories that illuminate previously neglected aspects of this devastating social problem. Jersild observes that, as for many other health-related issues, most research on and treatment for alcoholism have been based on male-only models. Alcoholics Anonymous, the most widespread (and, generally most respected) long-term sobriety program, was founded by and designed for "white, Protestant, mostly upper-middle-class men," says Jersild, a freelance writer. While its 12-step disease-model approach deliberately avoids cultural and gender-specific issues, Jersild points out many obstacles to recovery that, she claims, apply only or primarily to women. For example, she contends that the AA tenet of "accepting powerlessness" is based on the "assumption... that alcoholics are self-centered, self-aggrandizing and controlling," while women, Jersild asserts, more often have felt nothing but powerless in society and with their mates, and "need a recovery program that shores up their sense of self." Additionally, these women often have unique shame issues involving sexuality and may be victims of physical abuse. Motivated by "self-loathing," they need, she says, to focus on therapy for childhood traumas, gaining financial independence from men and caring for (and keeping custody of) their children. Jersild offers hope in the form of some treatment programs that are tailored to what she says are the specific needs of women, Native Americans and African-Americans. Agent, Elaine Markson. (Jan.)
Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
It's got me thinking, I'm female fyi.
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:15 PM
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We all like to think we're different. That for this reason or that, AA doesn't apply to us. I did think I'm different. I'm not different. It (AA) did apply to me.

And, actually, once you realize that you're not different, there is a certain comfort and strength in knowing you're not alone.

That said, I do think alcohol may work differently a little bit on women due only to physiology. The Big Book of AA even mentions this.

As far as powerless, here is the old adage. Buy a large bottle of booze. Pour yourself 15 shots, and put them on the counter. Take 2 shots, and leave the rest alone for a day or two. If you do make it a day or two, wait and see how long you can stand not taking another shot. That, in a nutshell, is powerless over alcohol.
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:25 PM
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But we do (mostly) have different roles, challenges and issues in life, purely because we are women. I think looking at these different approaches to addiction has to be helpful. I mean no disrespect but AA doesn't work for everyone so isn't open mindedness and development of awareness of other treatment options necessary?
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:43 PM
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different roles, challenges and issues in life
Sure, we all have different lives. But the core problem remains the same. Alcoholics can't accept life purely as it is, at face value.

BTW, some meetings I go to are about 50/50 men to women. there are also women only meetings.

We all fight AA. I did. It was the last thing I tried, and I tried a lot of things. Sure, there are options, and they work for some, not me. Sobriety takes work, lots of it. it also takes change, courage, and action.

What finally got me to go was desperation. I wanted to quit, and couldn't.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:25 PM
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Thanks for your post, I was wondering what the difference between male and female AA members might be. That's interesting.

I was also thinking about the commonalities that are shared because of alcohol dependency/alcoholism.

Different horses for different courses I guess :0) There's a range of treatment options available here, I'm going to check into them today, including AA, so this could get interesting.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:43 PM
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I was also thinking about the commonalities that are shared because of alcohol dependency/alcoholism.
That's a good attitude to have. If you go to AA, it will be suggested that you look for the commonalities, not the differences.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:50 PM
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"white, Protestant, mostly upper-middle-class men"

HHhhmmm,

Tell that to the AA groups in Africa, Spain, Itily, New Zeland, Japan, Siberia, Tim-Buc-Too, Mexico, The slums of New York, etc........
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:10 PM
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Well...if you are speaking of social injustices
look how alcoholics ... in and out of recovery .
are viewed by society.

Alcoholism and AA recovery are both
equal opportunity employers...

Find a way to enjoy a healthy sober life.
That's the important deal for me.

Blessings
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:03 PM
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Groucho, the comment about it being white protestant middle class men was related to how AA was formed, only one woman at that time apparently.

Carol, I agree - if it works then do it :0)

The author is pointing out how society views female and male alcoholics in different ways and how the women are way more vulnerable to rape and violence and social judgement than the average male is. I've just picked the book up from the library. If I find any cool bits of info I'll post them in this thread.
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:38 PM
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I re-read the excerpt you posted more carefully and what I'll say is that anything that helps someone get sober and free of this terrible disease is worthwhile.

I just skimmed it earlier and zipped out a bit of sarcasm aimed at countering an imagined slight against "my" (notice the ego thing going on here) precious AA. I am someone who can be overly sensative and impulsive. I ment no offence and I apologize if I was brash.

I think I'll go and call my sponsor now. I need a reality check.
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:36 PM
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No worries - I'm detoxing and way over sensitive atm. I hope you feel better after you've spoken to your sponsor :0)
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:22 PM
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This is from the introduction and the italics are mine.

Firstly she talks of the AA process and how it

drew on the procedures of the evangelical Oxford Group - giving in to God, listening to God's direction, checking guidance, making restitution, and sharing. Within this framework, a life that was confused and chaotic takes on a human shape. At AA, when a woman tells her story and communicates it to others, she gives meaning to her life, and she can begin to heal.

Yet this particular story reflects many assumptions that do not apply equally to everyone struggling with addiction - not surprisingly, since Bill Wilson, the cofounder of AA, based the all-important Big Book on the experiences of a hundred white, Protestant, mostly upper-middle-class men and one woman. Unlike these people, there are woman (and men) who walk into the halls of AA without ever having known a life they would like to recover. The AA approach, which confronts the false pride of the alcoholic, may not be helpful to a woman who needs to build her self-esteem from the ground up. Many alcoholic women have histories of childhood trauma that AA is not meant to address. New research has established that sexual problems are frequently interwoven with women's alcohol problems - they usually begin before the addiction and continue after it - but AA is not the place the bring these up. Many alcoholic women are dependent on men, and many start drinking in response to depression. Taking responsiblity for their lives may require them to look at how they have been socialised to relinquish their power to men, and to recognise the role that alcohol has played in these dymnamics. AA discourages discussion of social and political factors contributing to alcoholism. A single, needy woman may also meet with male "assistance" that amounts to sexual harassment (what's known as 13th stepping").

In many places, AA is adapting to women and minorities - particularly in cities, there are same-sex groups that avoid some of these problems - and women currently make up 40 percent of its membership. Some have made good using AA by remembering the slogan "Take what you need and leave the rest." But where is a woman to turn to with issues that AA cannot address? In today's climate of managed care, substance abuse treatment is likely to be brief. There is often no time to address the life issues bound up with a women's drinking, and in any case, these require ongoing support. My point here is that the dominant images of alcoholism and recovery are based on men's experience. For woman - and many men - the reality is often quite different. We need to know more about this group of people who do not fit the mold, and we must acknowledge and act on information we already have about specific aspects of women's alcohol problems...
The issue of self esteem and the AA approach of confronting the false pride of the alcoholic would be so self-destructive for me. I've built my self esteem up after 5 years or so in therapy/counselling and through contact with psychiatric professionals who've diagnosed, medicated and helped me hugely to start to build my life and self esteem from scratch.

I simply cannot afford to put a dent in that. I've been thinking this for some time and reading this book today has really said what I've been concerned about (well some of it so far, but the first one being the beginning I thought I'd start there.

Any thoughts anyone?
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassPrisoner View Post
We all like to think we're different. That for this reason or that, AA doesn't apply to us. I did think I'm different. I'm not different. It (AA) did apply to me.

And, actually, once you realize that you're not different, there is a certain comfort and strength in knowing you're not alone.

That said, I do think alcohol may work differently a little bit on women due only to physiology. The Big Book of AA even mentions this.

As far as powerless, here is the old adage. Buy a large bottle of booze. Pour yourself 15 shots, and put them on the counter. Take 2 shots, and leave the rest alone for a day or two. If you do make it a day or two, wait and see how long you can stand not taking another shot. That, in a nutshell, is powerless over alcohol.
Are you a woman? 'Cause your profile says dude. I would ask that you defer to women in this thread, as the question is...is it different for women, and you may not be in the best position to answer it, if you're not a woman.
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by needtobefree View Post
This is from the introduction and the italics are mine.

Firstly she talks of the AA process and how it



The issue of self esteem and the AA approach of confronting the false pride of the alcoholic would be so self-destructive for me. I've built my self esteem up after 5 years or so in therapy/counselling and through contact with psychiatric professionals who've diagnosed, medicated and helped me hugely to start to build my life and self esteem from scratch.

I simply cannot afford to put a dent in that. I've been thinking this for some time and reading this book today has really said what I've been concerned about (well some of it so far, but the first one being the beginning I thought I'd start there.

Any thoughts anyone?
Well, your emotions are dead on. AA was written by men, for men. One look at the chapter "To the Wives" pretty much sums it up.

Women for Sobriety (and there is a web site out there) is a much more positive and uplifting approach for women and sobriety. There's another site for men and sobriety, although I don't know if it has much of a following.

Regardless of gender, it's much more uplifting and people have found real support and sobriety through that program.

Also, there is a program called LifeRing, and they do have a chat. It's out of Northern CA. Oh......! How I wish I lived back there. They have meetings called...how was your week? Kaiser (a health plan in the US) has actually offered them as a substitute for AA. They are secular in nature, with none of the self flagellating stuff going on.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for your reply :0)

I think there's a link in the top of the forum about other recovery options too. I checked out the lifering site last night, will need to look at time differences and see when they are online.

I'm going to start a support group for women in a couple of weeks time when they have a space. I managed to get that sorted today along with some other positive stuff.

The on-call counsellor I saw this morning told me I should check out AA if I really need support. I told him of my reservations and he said that different people interpret the steps differently and that I should try three different meetings in three different places. I still have all my reservations and a part of me feels like I'd be going against myself and recovery so far if I go there. I see my regular weekly counsellor on Thursday, I'm going to talk to her about it then.

It's very true, regardless of gender we all need to find real support and help.

Thanks for coming here btw, it's been very interesting today. I'm off to get some dinner now and catch the news. My body and brain are still detoxing, gawd I feel rough, lol :0)
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:27 AM
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as the mom of an alcoholic/addict daughter - i will say this much - there are not as many halfway/sober living houses for women. or free treatment programs. and we live in a big urbun area.

blessings, k
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:46 AM
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First of all there are a lot of different programs out their for recovery from alcoholism, some of them are really great, the one thing they all have in common though 12 step or not is the following:

None of them will work if you do not work them.

The one thing that none of us should be doing is trashing other programs just because we are not willing to work them. This is counter productive and may stop some one from exploring the only program that may have saved thier life.

We are here to help each other recover, we are not here to trash programs that may help many others recover, especially when one is speaking about some thing is very apperant they either have no real experience at or they have a prejudice against.

Please take note that I am not going to say one bad thing about any other program!

I mean no disrespect but AA doesn't work for everyone so isn't open mindedness and development of awareness of other treatment options necessary?
needtobefree, thanks for not showing disrespect for a program that has brought sobriety to millions over the years, if one studies the early years of AA they will find that there were women alcoholics as well as men who came to long term sobriety due to AA.

Another thing to point out is AA knows that women have different things to deal with then men, there are common denominators also. One of the unwritten rules of AA is that men do not sponsor women and women do not sponsor men. In my area there is only one mens only meeting and quite a few ladies only meetings because of the differences alcoholism presents with women.

In my area over all I would say our AA membership is about 35-40 percent women, I know of one lady with 31 years, another 33 years, and a lot of them with over 20 years of sobriety. Let the nay sayers come talk to these ladies about how AA does not work for women!!! LOL

Different horses for different courses I guess :0) There's a range of treatment options available here, I'm going to check into them today, including AA, so this could get interesting.
Best thing in the world to do, recovery is far from easy, look at them all with an open mind, try one that appeals to you and work it, if it does not work do not give up, move on to another program. Please do not do as some folks do and trash or mislead folks about a program that they were not willing to work.

The author is pointing out how society views female and male alcoholics in different ways and how the women are way more vulnerable to rape and violence and social judgement than the average male is.
Sadly that is very true, society as a whole does view a female alcoholic very differently, that is from what I have seen in the rooms of AA one of the things the women in AA love about AA, they are looked upon the same as the men when it comes to being an alcoholic, it is a common thread that ties us all together. The main reason why men do not sponsor women is because women do tend to be more vulnerable then the men initially, that and sadly men are men recovering alcoholic or not, some will take advantage which is the very reason it is discouraged STRONGLY!

Many alcoholic women have histories of childhood trauma that AA is not meant to address.
Men as well, physical, verbal, and sexual........ AA beleives that many problems like these need to be dealt with via professional counceling and therapy, AA's main focus is helping alcoholics learn to live life on lifes terms, part of this learning process is learning issues that should be addressed via therapy and medical help and not addressed by AA.

The issue of self esteem and the AA approach of confronting the false pride of the alcoholic would be so self-destructive for me. I've built my self esteem up after 5 years or so in therapy/counselling and through contact with psychiatric professionals who've diagnosed, medicated and helped me hugely to start to build my life and self esteem from scratch.

I simply cannot afford to put a dent in that. I've been thinking this for some time and reading this book today has really said what I've been concerned about (well some of it so far, but the first one being the beginning I thought I'd start there.

Any thoughts anyone?
I never had my self esteem torn down in AA, I do not know a single person who has, alcohol tore down my self esteem, AA helped me rebuild it. My ego was grossly over inflated when I was drinking and it was not until my ego was crushed by alcohol that I was able to begin recovery, AA did not deflate my ego, it taught me how alcohol had torn it down and how I could rebuild my ego without being egotistical.

AA is about helping an alcoholic learn how to live life on lifes terms, this is one of the reasons why it is a program of suggestions and not one of rules. Everyone is different, which is why there is a great deal of leeway in working ones program, what worked for me in AA may very well not work for many others in AA.

needtobefree for this alcoholic the one main thing I have found in AA that has helped keep me sober is the face to face support I recieve in the rooms of AA. For me there is no replacement for a handshake, a hug, a smile, a look of understanding, the ability to be able to pick up a phone at any hour of the day and call someone who is willing if need to be meet me some where to talk or simply just talk to me on the phone. I know that I can travel alomost any where in the US and many parts of the world and find rooms full of AA folks who I feel just as comfortable with as I do with the folks in my area.

If I was stuck in an airport and really felt I was going to drink all I would have to do is have a page put on the PA system asking for a "Friend of Bills" to meet me some where in the airport and know that some one would be there.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kathryn D View Post
Are you a woman? 'Cause your profile says dude. I would ask that you defer to women in this thread, as the question is...is it different for women, and you may not be in the best position to answer it, if you're not a woman.


I am well qualified to give my opinion on alcoholism, recovery, and AA, regardless of my gender. The excerpt you provided mis-intrepreted the powerlessness concept, which I pointed out to you.
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
AA did not deflate my ego, it taught me how alcohol had torn it down and how I could rebuild my ego without being egotistical.
Well said Taz!

I had a frustrating day at work yesterday and was in a bad space so I called my sponsor and felt better. I also just got home from a meeting this morning and I know it will help me through the day. There are people in the halls with more time than me, there are people with less time. There are folks with relativly few problems and then there are those with humungous problems. I get to listen to how they deal with things without picking up a drink and something I hear just might save my life. What a meeting really reinforces is the fact that I am not alone. Hey, it's NOT all about ME! What a concept.

What I will say is, if AA is not for you I truly hope that you will find an alternative that will work for you.

An lastly, for those who have no-one left, no friends, relatives that won't speak to them, even no-where to live, just remember that the halls of AA will always be there to welcome you.

When nobody else wants you, we do.

I wish you the best,
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:36 AM
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This is quite a thread, and I thank you for posting it. I relate to a great deal in it. I find difficulty in the program as a mother of young children attempting recovery, as a wife who stays at home and has a life based on husbands hours, and income, at the moment. I don't like being told how powerless I am when I already feel powerless. I work it, I try - but this is a stumbling block. Not knocking any programs, I do have a great love of AA. But found myself feeling less then at certain points (no matter what twists I have put on the words) because of it.

I had trouble with the simplicity of 'bring your kids, some older or other memer (often worded as 'grandmother') will take your kids for you' when the reality of the need is to be able to be me and not mother, wife, homemaker - these are issues not so common to others out there (men and women) in todays society. Plus - how many times have I (outside of meetings, but in the world overall) been cast into the role of caretaker simply because I am used to it?

I find it inetesrting that in the rooms I meet more women who came to sobriety after their children were grown, and a few before they had children, but not so many with small children.

Probably got off the point here, so sorry. But all three kiddos strated fighting while typing lol and sent me on my own train of thoughts
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