Time to dependancy question:
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Time to dependancy question:
Does anyone know a good source of information--website or book--that tells us what we know about what it takes for one to become physically dependant on alcohol?
I've read on avg 10 years for a man, drinking 100 units a week, and 2-3 years for a woman drinking 70 units a week. However, it isn't clear whether they built up to those levels over time, or not.
If physical dependancy requires X amount of consumption over Y time, doesn't that mean that in theory if one can reduce X the physical dependancy will go away? Some--maybe most or even almost ALL simply aren't able to do this for various reasons--cold turkey detox is their only option. It seems to me that others might be able to with medicine to fight cravings at the same time. I'm just looking into options for those that drink in part due to the physical dependancy--ie, fear of withdrawal discomfort. If the reduction is gradual, the withdrawal discomfort perhaps will be milder???
I have a question about blood alcohol levels too. My understanding is that alcohol leaves the blood in 24 hours or so. Doesn't this mean that blood alcohol levels for even the most severe alcoholic are back to those of a normal person in a short amount of time? Assuming yes, then the physical dependancy is clearly due to other factors--ie cells which have adapted to alcohol and use it as an energy source. I believe I remember reading that these cells don't become normal again for 90 days or so. Does anyone know a good source that discusses this other than "Under the influence"?
Finally, a question about tolerance. Tolerance also builds up over time and isn't directly related to blood alcohol levels (since those can vary widely). I think of it like exercise--if you do more than the body is used to, it will adapt in X amount of days, but if you don't exercise after that the adaptation goes away. Same with tolerance--it builds up by drinking MORE than you are used to drinking within a certain amount of time. It is likely then that it will go back down if you stop drinking or drink less within a certain amount of time. Does anyone know a good book or website that shows both how tolerance builds and how it reduces in relation to the amounts consumed over a certain amount of time?
I realize the brain and one's thinking is a big factor in motivation also and that it ultimately determines how successful stopping or reducing is going to be. I'm just trying to gather more information to understand what is going on in the body when one stops or reduces drinking. One thought I have is that stopping can be traumatic to the system--for some a gradual reduction might work better--ie if you are used to 12 beers a night, drop that to 10 for a week, then 8, then 6, etc...I've heard people say they tried to control their drinking--but how many really tried something this gradual? Stopping cold turkey is extreme! Of course the body is going to rebel loudly, and failure is likely. Some here will say that a gradual approach would have been impossible for them. Does anyone here think it could have been done? Any thoughts on that?
thanks
ted
I've read on avg 10 years for a man, drinking 100 units a week, and 2-3 years for a woman drinking 70 units a week. However, it isn't clear whether they built up to those levels over time, or not.
If physical dependancy requires X amount of consumption over Y time, doesn't that mean that in theory if one can reduce X the physical dependancy will go away? Some--maybe most or even almost ALL simply aren't able to do this for various reasons--cold turkey detox is their only option. It seems to me that others might be able to with medicine to fight cravings at the same time. I'm just looking into options for those that drink in part due to the physical dependancy--ie, fear of withdrawal discomfort. If the reduction is gradual, the withdrawal discomfort perhaps will be milder???
I have a question about blood alcohol levels too. My understanding is that alcohol leaves the blood in 24 hours or so. Doesn't this mean that blood alcohol levels for even the most severe alcoholic are back to those of a normal person in a short amount of time? Assuming yes, then the physical dependancy is clearly due to other factors--ie cells which have adapted to alcohol and use it as an energy source. I believe I remember reading that these cells don't become normal again for 90 days or so. Does anyone know a good source that discusses this other than "Under the influence"?
Finally, a question about tolerance. Tolerance also builds up over time and isn't directly related to blood alcohol levels (since those can vary widely). I think of it like exercise--if you do more than the body is used to, it will adapt in X amount of days, but if you don't exercise after that the adaptation goes away. Same with tolerance--it builds up by drinking MORE than you are used to drinking within a certain amount of time. It is likely then that it will go back down if you stop drinking or drink less within a certain amount of time. Does anyone know a good book or website that shows both how tolerance builds and how it reduces in relation to the amounts consumed over a certain amount of time?
I realize the brain and one's thinking is a big factor in motivation also and that it ultimately determines how successful stopping or reducing is going to be. I'm just trying to gather more information to understand what is going on in the body when one stops or reduces drinking. One thought I have is that stopping can be traumatic to the system--for some a gradual reduction might work better--ie if you are used to 12 beers a night, drop that to 10 for a week, then 8, then 6, etc...I've heard people say they tried to control their drinking--but how many really tried something this gradual? Stopping cold turkey is extreme! Of course the body is going to rebel loudly, and failure is likely. Some here will say that a gradual approach would have been impossible for them. Does anyone here think it could have been done? Any thoughts on that?
thanks
ted
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
withdrawal is a very individual thing some go thru shear hell while others may only experience minor discomfort if any at all.
I personally do not know of anyone getting sober from gradual withdrawal I have heard that some try it this way but it seems that cold turkey is the only real way to do it.
I personally do not know of anyone getting sober from gradual withdrawal I have heard that some try it this way but it seems that cold turkey is the only real way to do it.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
I could no more cut back on drinking than I could cut back on the air I breathed. CT is not a prescription for failure. Dangerous? Yes, it can be. But trying to get an alcoholic to do a controlled taper? Good luck.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Peace & Love,
Sugah
let it grow!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 15,540
my daughter has tried many times to control/manage her alcohol intake - she is never successful. she has no tolerance. i believe her addiction began to progress when she took her first drink/drug. and the only thing that makes the alc blood level matter in her case - is that she blacks out and almost drinks to death. that's the only difference between her first drink and her last drink of the binge - the last one may very well kill her.
blessings, tedseeker - i understand your fear, k
blessings, tedseeker - i understand your fear, k
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
yeap..i tried to manage my drinking..i snort a bouch of crystal
so i can drink more or don't have hang overs or stop the drinking..
The only problems was i started having a higher tolerance to the meth
and got addicted to that too.
so i can drink more or don't have hang overs or stop the drinking..
The only problems was i started having a higher tolerance to the meth
and got addicted to that too.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Does anyone know a good source of information--website or book--that tells us what we know about what it takes for one to become physically dependant on alcohol?
in theory if one can reduce X the physical dependancy will go away?
If the reduction is gradual, the withdrawal discomfort perhaps will be milder???
My understanding is that alcohol leaves the blood in 24 hours or so.
Same with tolerance--it builds up by drinking MORE than you are used to drinking within a certain amount of time.
It is likely then that it will go back down if you stop drinking or drink less within a certain amount of time.
I realize the brain and one's thinking is a big factor in motivation also and that it ultimately determines how successful stopping or reducing is going to be. I'm just trying to gather more information to understand what is going on in the body when one stops or reduces drinking. One thought I have is that stopping can be traumatic to the system--for some a gradual reduction might work better--ie if you are used to 12 beers a night, drop that to 10 for a week, then 8, then 6, etc...I've heard people say they tried to control their drinking--but how many really tried something this gradual? Stopping cold turkey is extreme! Of course the body is going to rebel loudly, and failure is likely. Some here will say that a gradual approach would have been impossible for them. Does anyone here think it could have been done? Any thoughts on that?
Ted you need to learn more about how alcohol effects the alcoholics brain chemically, the longer one drinks the more time it takes for the brain to return to normal chemical levels, I have been sober almost 9 months and I still am seeing noticeable improvements in my thinking, I have spoken with old timers about this and they say it can continue to improve for over a year.
Alcoholics brains are for lack of a better word wired differently then normal peoples, I have had to learn how to live life on lifes terms and not mine, I have changed an awful lot from when I was drinking and continue to change every day for the better.
Keep in mind that the drinking of alcohol is only one symptom of alcoholism.
Cold turkey withdrawal is dangerous and can be deadly, medical detox is the best and safest way to get initially sober.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Thanks,Taz! I have even heard that on average, to count on about two years with NO alcohol,to get the effects out of the system (see PAWS info) and for long-term drinkers, about one month for each year of active dtrinking....that would be three years plus for my exAH,if the "formula" was correct and he stopped today. And stayed stopped.
Recovering Nicely
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
Actually I saw a movie this weekend at my husband's rehab which shows that the brains of alcoholics metabolize alcohol differently than that of non-alcoholics. They have also found THIQ (a heroin like, highly addictive substance) was manufactured in the brains of alcoholics which at first were thought to only be in the brains of heroin addicts. That THIQ remains in the brains of alcoholics, I believe, forever. That is why one drink is too many and 1,000 is never enough.
Coffee Drinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lobstah Land
Posts: 1,122
Hey Ted,
I know you have read the exerpts from "Under the Influence" here but have you read the book? Also "Beyond the influence"?
Beyond the influence explains the answer to your question much better than I could answer it and it has a full bibliography so you can do further research on your own.
I can tell that you are intellegent, go visit a university library for a day and dig in.
"
Does anyone know a good source of information--website or book--that tells us what we know about what it takes for one to become physically dependant on alcohol?
"
Ted, it varies widely, you just can't say that a male who weighs x number of pounds must ingest x number of drinks over x amount of time is now physically dependant.
The body adapts, and some of the adaptations at a cellular level are permanent. As in they never return to a non-adapted state, like giving someone a vaccene, once the body learns it never forgets!
Oh, sure you can taper an alcoholic down, you just need to chain them down first.
BAH really is meaningless when it comes to alcoholics. I could walk, talk, drive, work, etc with a BAC that I am sure was at least 2.0 (or is it 0.2) you know what I mean.
I used to watch those videos where people are given ETOH and have to drive a course and laugh. I knew they were full of it because I could drink a couple of 16 oz six pacs and do most anything. Heck, I could do things with my motercycle drunk that I could never do sober. Sober I was too scared. Never did have an accident on the bike either but that was back when booze still did great things for me.
Hope you find your answers,
Ted W.
I know you have read the exerpts from "Under the Influence" here but have you read the book? Also "Beyond the influence"?
Beyond the influence explains the answer to your question much better than I could answer it and it has a full bibliography so you can do further research on your own.
I can tell that you are intellegent, go visit a university library for a day and dig in.
"
Does anyone know a good source of information--website or book--that tells us what we know about what it takes for one to become physically dependant on alcohol?
"
Ted, it varies widely, you just can't say that a male who weighs x number of pounds must ingest x number of drinks over x amount of time is now physically dependant.
The body adapts, and some of the adaptations at a cellular level are permanent. As in they never return to a non-adapted state, like giving someone a vaccene, once the body learns it never forgets!
Oh, sure you can taper an alcoholic down, you just need to chain them down first.
BAH really is meaningless when it comes to alcoholics. I could walk, talk, drive, work, etc with a BAC that I am sure was at least 2.0 (or is it 0.2) you know what I mean.
I used to watch those videos where people are given ETOH and have to drive a course and laugh. I knew they were full of it because I could drink a couple of 16 oz six pacs and do most anything. Heck, I could do things with my motercycle drunk that I could never do sober. Sober I was too scared. Never did have an accident on the bike either but that was back when booze still did great things for me.
Hope you find your answers,
Ted W.
Last edited by GrouchoTheCat; 06-12-2007 at 03:16 PM. Reason: still can't spell!
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
At my kids' rehab(s), they said that for an adolescent, the time frame from first drink to dependency is often only 6-18 months - primarily because of the fast growth of the brain at that age.
I tried "cutting down", but I was a binge drinker, so I mainly just tried to drink fewer drinks in one outting.
I tried drinking a glass of water with each drink... added a cup of coffee AND a glass of water with each drink... then added a 20 oz. diet pepsi, a glass of water and as much coffee as they would bring and one drink.
Never could get much below 4 drinks per hour. And at that rate, it only took an hour or two before I got too drunk to care about slowing down... so I'd be at 15 drinks before I knew it.
Abstinance was the only thing that worked for me.
I tried "cutting down", but I was a binge drinker, so I mainly just tried to drink fewer drinks in one outting.
I tried drinking a glass of water with each drink... added a cup of coffee AND a glass of water with each drink... then added a 20 oz. diet pepsi, a glass of water and as much coffee as they would bring and one drink.
Never could get much below 4 drinks per hour. And at that rate, it only took an hour or two before I got too drunk to care about slowing down... so I'd be at 15 drinks before I knew it.
Abstinance was the only thing that worked for me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Thank you everyone for your answers. A special thank you to Taz for the detail on quite a few of my questions. Beyond the Influence sounds like a good one for me to read.
take care all,
ted
take care all,
ted
Glad to be here
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 178
I saw a psychiatrist when I was finally ready to think about quitting. She interviewed me and said that I could either go inpatient or taper down on my own (since I wasn't drinking in the mornings and could go without alcohol all day until I got off work, etc). She also said that it wouldn't be safe for me to just quit cold turkey at the level I was drinking. She told me to eliminate one beer per week until I was down to four a night and then when I got to 4 per night I could start Campral. I had been drinking 12 or more beers per night, so the first week was pretty easy because I could still have 11 beers per night. I did OK the following week at a max of 10 per night also. The following week I was supposed to cut down to 9 per night, but we went on vacation and 9 was not enough, so all bets were off. I saw the Dr again and she asked how the tapering was going and I explained what had happened. She told me to go ahead and start the Campral that day and then to continue tapering down. My husband commited to quitting shortly after his birthday in June and I agreed to quit that Monday (June 12th). I set the date and quit on that date, cold turkey, and never looked back. I don't think I ever could have followed through with tapering to anything less than 9 or 10 beers per night.
The tolerance definitely had a memory in my case also. I had successfully quit drinking in 2004 (also quit with my husband that time too) and remained sober for 10 months. (He lasted a couple of months that time and then started drinking again.) After watching him drink for months and months, I fooled myself into thinking I could handle it again and decided to have Margaritas on our anniversary. The very next weekend, I told myself that I could drink only on Saturdays when we went out on the boat. The next weekend I convinced myself that I could "just drink on weekends - Friday and Saturday only", but after I drank that Friday, I never stopped again for a year. I was back to having a 12 pack or so every single night and it took the whole 12 pack to even feel a buzz. I can truly understand the statement that one's too many and a thousand is not enough and I replay that message all the time.
The tolerance definitely had a memory in my case also. I had successfully quit drinking in 2004 (also quit with my husband that time too) and remained sober for 10 months. (He lasted a couple of months that time and then started drinking again.) After watching him drink for months and months, I fooled myself into thinking I could handle it again and decided to have Margaritas on our anniversary. The very next weekend, I told myself that I could drink only on Saturdays when we went out on the boat. The next weekend I convinced myself that I could "just drink on weekends - Friday and Saturday only", but after I drank that Friday, I never stopped again for a year. I was back to having a 12 pack or so every single night and it took the whole 12 pack to even feel a buzz. I can truly understand the statement that one's too many and a thousand is not enough and I replay that message all the time.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
you can't trun a pickle back into a cucumber..
In other words once I cross a threashold my body dosen't
process alcohol like it use to when i was functioning or still working.
or my dis-ease has progressed.
Anyway...it won't work anymore no matter what, no matter how i try to term it.
Alcohol is a depressent to begin with aways..so I'll have to get
over the peer pressure jurgon to begin with.
there's millions of things i can do in life aside from drinking and using.
i just have to get out of my comfort zone..yes just becuase it's comfortable it
dosn't mean it's healty...but its a catch 22...i can't think straight or see beyound
the damn bottle if i was drunk or still in a fog. An extension of that is..
i can't see beyound the way I was living..an extension of that..
i can't see beyound what's in my mind.
In other words I'm still under the influence of my old ways of life or the dis-ease
Well..i might dy from the withdraws and i mgiht dy from continuing to drink too
becuase alcohol f-up the liver wheather i'm an alki or not..
i take changes either way..but pourning more pioson into my system
is the answer.
Some where alone the line...life as I knew it, cease to exisist..
Wheather I accept it or not. It's time for a change...
Changes ???? what da ..
if it ain't broken don't fix it....
But ya know....it got freanken broken or it didn't work anymore..
In other words once I cross a threashold my body dosen't
process alcohol like it use to when i was functioning or still working.
or my dis-ease has progressed.
Anyway...it won't work anymore no matter what, no matter how i try to term it.
Alcohol is a depressent to begin with aways..so I'll have to get
over the peer pressure jurgon to begin with.
there's millions of things i can do in life aside from drinking and using.
i just have to get out of my comfort zone..yes just becuase it's comfortable it
dosn't mean it's healty...but its a catch 22...i can't think straight or see beyound
the damn bottle if i was drunk or still in a fog. An extension of that is..
i can't see beyound the way I was living..an extension of that..
i can't see beyound what's in my mind.
In other words I'm still under the influence of my old ways of life or the dis-ease
Well..i might dy from the withdraws and i mgiht dy from continuing to drink too
becuase alcohol f-up the liver wheather i'm an alki or not..
i take changes either way..but pourning more pioson into my system
is the answer.
Some where alone the line...life as I knew it, cease to exisist..
Wheather I accept it or not. It's time for a change...
Changes ???? what da ..
if it ain't broken don't fix it....
But ya know....it got freanken broken or it didn't work anymore..
Last edited by SaTiT; 06-12-2007 at 09:14 PM.
catch-22
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 135
cutting down didn't work for me either... after two glasses of wine I couldn't stop and would drink the whole bottle, everyday, and everyday I would tell myself 'tonight I'm going to stop after two'. Always failed.
I do recommend 'Beyond the influence'... as I said in another thread, the bibliography is 37 pages long. I'm sure you'll find plenty of references there.
Catch
I do recommend 'Beyond the influence'... as I said in another thread, the bibliography is 37 pages long. I'm sure you'll find plenty of references there.
Catch
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