Peter

Yup,thanks to AA I got the alcohol consumption thing under control now too.

Peter.

munchdaddy

So,
AA made this choice for you? That must be hard too.

Peter

No,AA did not make the choice for me.If that is what you think AA does then you misunderstand.

AA only helped to open my eyes to certain things.

I put the glass down on my own choosing.

Peter.

Jon

This discussion is lively, and I see no reason for it to get "personal." Passion for one's beliefs is not necessarily a bad thing.

Since the all-powerful dictioanary keeps popping up:

obsession

n 1: an irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions against your will [syn: compulsion] 2: an unhealthy preoccupation with something or someone [syn: fixation]

To pick up the first drink, which in turn creates an allergic reaction (cravings), may very well be a "choice." But when my mind tells me it's the only choice I have, what are the options?

I worked as a counselor with Dual-diagnosed men for three years. These men all suffered from chronic mental illness in adition to their substance abuse problems. What was most interesting about this expeience was that those who were able to comply with their psych meds (rare), reported relief from the constant obsession to drink/use. The same obsessive thoughts that classified them as mentally ill included the desire to drink despite negative consequnces to health, security and relationships.

What "right-thinking" person would make a "choice" to drink knowing full well that the results would be harmful to them? If I know that something will hurt me, and do it anyway, am I not in some way "ill"?

And if I have a thought that overides all other thoughts, (an obsession) how can I possibly come up with a rational alternative? My mind says drink when I am obsessed, it doesnt allow room for "just don't."

Tell a person with Touretts they have a choice to not have an outburst.

Tell a person with OCD they have a choice to not repeatedly wash their hands.

Yes, they have a choice. But when the the obsessive thought is full-strength, the mind says there are no other options.

So yes. Right this very second I have choice not to drink. I have that choice because I have a program that has given me tools to maintain that power. Experience has shown me that alone with my mind my optons and choices begin to diminish, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, until there is only one choice left...

I've tried it on my own too many times. I'm not taking that chance again.

munchdaddy

Jon,
Chemical dependency does often go hand in hand with obsession over the substance that one is chemically dependant to. Granted.

Cravings and urges for a stimulant or depressant once these substances are introduced into the system is not an allegic reaction. It is empirically proven that this is the effect of said drugs (alcohol, cigarettes, heroin, caffeine etc.)

No. That doesn’t make you ill, it makes you dependant on a substance. Only when you choose responsible actions over the “craving” can withdrawal and subsequent chemical independence occur.

I assert that you are choosing not to drink on your own. You, like me have found a set of “tools” that help you achieve this. The members of your “fellowship” are not with you 24/7. So, the hours/minutes they are not with you, you are taking responsibility for your own actions.
Good Job.

I’ll bet that if you tell these same people that by discontinuing the ingestion of a substance that these symptoms will go away, they would stop. Plus, it is pretty insulting to people with these actual conditions in the same class as individuals who drink too much.

Ninerfan

Munchy... I understand you dont want to lable yourself and you dislike the disease concept or probably anything AA but you certainly can admit that you drank alcoholically cant you? If your not an alcoholic and you drank like I did, do you know why? Is your only concern just not drinking? Aren't there other issues in your life that need attention? How about the harm done to your family because of your drinking? What about the jobs youve lost or the 'sick leave' youve taken because of excessive drinking? I guess what I am saying is, if you drank like I did, you are full of guilt and remorse for your stupid, thoughtless, sometimes criminal actions. Until these issues were squarely faced and dealt with, I was in danger of drinking again. That is the bottome line, just not drinking, we agree on that one point I think. But to stay there, sober and reasonably happy, is the whole point of the AA program.

Now enters the AA program. Specifically the promises, suggest you read them if you haven't already. They basically say to me that I will learn to feel comfortable in my own skin and with others without drinking. All I need to do is take the steps to a better way of like. It is a very cheap trick and particularly cruel to make fun of a program that has given so much back to those of us who have benefitted from AA. (I'm refering to your back and forth with Peter)

I understand all your objections to the disease concept, powerlessness, God etc. These things just dont matter when you are trying to get sober. The disease concept is being discussed. Powerlessness is not a perpetual state in AA. We learn to get right sized in AA. My way got me drunk and powerless. But the power returns in a different form. This is something RRers dont understand. We arent slaves to meetings or 'working a program' or waitnig for the other shoe to drop so that we will get drunk. At least I'm not. I have a better sense of who and what I am today then I ever have and the credit goes to AA and the people in it. Munchy, we all need people. I isolated myself for too long. Alcoholism is called the lonely disease too. RR says you can do it all by yourself without going to those damn meetings or taking the steps or anyother thing. Fine, God bless you, I'm glad it has worked for you. It was just much easier and frankly, more fun for me, quitting the AA way.

Once again I've talked to long.

First164

Munchdaddy...what is SMARTRecovery? Perhaps you need to explain why you believe what you believe. Especially since you're not an active participant in AA.

As for me...I have recovered from a seemingly helpless state of mind and body. I wish the same for you.

munchdaddy

First164 nice,
SMART recovery is excellent recovery community that has members who are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met.
Outlined:
SMART Recovery®
.Teaches self-reliance rather than reliance on a higher power
.Views addiction as a complex maladaptive behavior rather than as a disease
·Encourages you to recover and move on with your life
·Does not use the labels "alcoholic" or "addict"
·Does not have "sponsors"
·Holds meetings which are actual discussions rather than a series of monologues
·Advocates the appropriate use of prescribed medications and psychological treatments
·Evolves as scientific knowledge evolves


I have recovered from a bad state of mind and body by helping myself and getting some incredible advice from the wonderful people at SMART.

Check them out on the web first164. I think you will like what you see.

The Jay Walker

this thread has really gotten interesting,

a lot of good points from both sides, I know for myself, espesially in those last few years of drinking, I had lost the ability to make the chioce if I would drink or not,
if I was broke I would go to the supermarket, grab a jug and run like hell, whatever it took to get the booze, I am addicted to cigarettes, and I don't see much corelation, actually its almost the opposite, when I crave a cigarette, I have one and I'm fine for a while, the craving is satisfied, alcohol is just the opposite for me, I don't crave a drink, but if I have one, the craving starts and it makes me want more,
this phenonminom has puzzled people for centuries, and there is no way to explain it to a person who does not have it.
if your not there YET, just be gratefull you didn't have to go that far.

Peter

Hi First 164 welcome to SR.Please feel free to jump on in here anytime and join the fray.

Munchdaddy.I sense a reluctance in you to look at the mental and spiritual aspect of the disease of alcoholism.

I ask you to open up the crack in your door just a little wider to accomodate some of the feedback on this area and stop focusing exclusively on the physical aspect of alcoholism.

Alcoholism eats away at the mind and erodes the spirit.At least that has been my experience.

Because of alcoholism I developed a very twisted view of the world and society.Because of my alcoholism I became cynical,judgemental,resentful and bitter.

Because of alcoholism I became selfish and self seeking and thought that the whole world owed me a living and that it was ok to take what I wanted without thought or consideration for the harm i was doing to others.

Is this not "sick" emotions and beliefs to have about life.

Is this not a "diseased" way to live.

Disease does not only affect the body munchdaddy.It affects the mind and the spirit too.

I have buried two of my friends because of this disease of the mind and spirit.I watched them suffer for years to try and get well until in the end the sickness claimed them.

I know for them it was never so simple as to "just not drink".

Munchdaddy you speak a lot about "facts" and "empirical proof" but where is it?

Why dont you present some of this "empirical proof" and allow me to take a few pot shots at it:asmd:

Perhaps you already know as well as I do that it is no more possible to disprove that alcoholism is a disease anymore than I can prove that it is.

Another one of the things I learned in recovery is that it is "impossible to graft a new idea unto a closed mind".

I remain openminded to anything you offer and who knows,maybe one day I will have to modify my belief about the "disease concept."

So far I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise.

I am however enjoying this discussion .

Peter.

munchdaddy

Peter, Peter, Peter……………….
It is almost as though we are speaking two different languages.
But I will go one by one:
1. My mental and spiritual well-being are personal, and far too worthy to be defined by my former use of alcohol.
The problem as I see it is that “the disease of alcoholism” is too all encompassing. Why not let that failed part of your past go?

2. There is no aspect to drinking too much other than physically doing it or not.

3.Why not take responsibility for your eaten away mind and spirit, twisted views, being cynical,judgemental,resentful and bitter, your selfish ness, your self serving ways and stop blaming the inert substance of alcohol?

4.I am sorry for your friends, truly, and I have enough class to not make any comment concerning this

5. The onus of proof and fact lies with those who chose to use a clearly defined medical term to describe drinking too much. I have seen empirical proof for diseases, but for some reason I have never seen evidence that the consumption of alcohol is a disease.

6. Why is it I who has the closed mind? My mind is open. Prove that the consumption of alcohol is a disease. Every other disease has gone through this scrutiny, why should “alcoholism” be different?

The Jay Walker

I don't know much about websters dictionary, but I sure wouldn't bet the farm on it.
for anybody new following this thread, my experience in A.A. has been great, we do have some bad people like anywere else, but there are a lot of dear friends to me today in A.A.
there is a misconception about A.A. being a religious organisation, that you are somehow trapped into going to endless meetings of drunkalogs for the rest of your life, I suppose it may be that way for somepeople that only go to speaker meetings, or are not ready to hear yet, but I go to a variety of meetings, big book studies , step studies, etc. there are some great people in A.A. who have come far in there recovery, it is not the only way, but it is the only way I know of that adresses, my past and helps me to set things right with the people I've wronged, and offers continued growth for my present and future. I think to turn my back on my past would be a big mistake, and I would not be accepting resonsability for my actions if I did not make things right, I learn from mistakes, and if I hadn't claened up the mess I made it would still be there,
for the first few years of my drinking, I think other programs may have worked for me to some extent,
but by the time I got to A.A. , my past , present and future were such a mess, I had to do much more than stop drinking, I was full of shame, guilt humiliation, and my thinking was way messed up, I have gone from helpless, and miserable to happy and comfortable, by simply following the footsteps of those who have gone before me, and keeping an open mind. fact is that my way was not working, it was time to take suggestions without reservation.

Peter

I think we are understanding each other quite well.At least I understand what you are saying(dont agree with it,but understand)

I have taken responsibility.Through AA and and the working of the Twelve Steps I am now happy to say that my "disease has now been arrested and I have been restored to sanity.


Empirical proof is derived from experimentation and testing is it not.I was hoping you would have provided something like names and dates,places environment conditions,profile of subjects or even some kind of link to a website.However I appreciate the effort.

Munchdaddy.Where did I say you had a closed mind?I merely suggested that maybe you need to open your already open mind just a little more.That's not such a bad thing is it?

Peter.

Ninerfan

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So there, munch on that daddy.

No really, I'm sure this didn't change any minds. Like I said earlier, it really doesn't matter what you call it. Abstinance seems to be the only reasonalbe thing to do.

Peter

Oh yeah,thanks Jay.

No longer do I regret the past,nor do I wish to shut the door on it.

Forgetting my past would mean I am doomed to repeat it.

Peter.

Peter

Munchdaddy.

Something more like what Ninerfan provided is kinda what I had in mind about "empirical proof".

Peter.

DallasHawkins

I don't think that alcoholism is a disease of my body or mind. I tried to buy into that theory while attending AA but eventually decided that theory seems flawed. Now since reading these posts and thinking back to meetings I'm focusing on this spiritual disease concept. Why is it just now occuring to me, but what in the world is a spiritual disease? How does a spirit get a disease? How did diseases get from plants and animals to things of a spiritual nature? How does a spirit get a diagnosis? Man I am blown away by this spirtual disease concept.

Jon

Soul-sickness.

Sunny1

Hi All,

Jay Walker wrote:

"It was time to take suggestions without reservation. "

How vulnerable I was when I used to say things like that. In 1985, I remember telling my aa sponsor to, "rearrange the furniture in my head." I accepted recovery "truths" (like the disease model of addiction) unquestioned, after all, I had been beaten into teachability. I think that is how cults operate, molding the vulnerable to accept whatever they are told. I imagine folks who promote the disease model are well-intentioned, but like Munchdaddy says, it undermines one's taking responsibility for choosing to drink too much. "Choosing," yes I said - choosing; the devil did not make me do it.

Today, I think aa relies too much on hocus-pocus, unprovable claims about a disease, superstition about higher-powers, and plain, old threats like: leave the program or you will die, go insane, or..., etc etc. Well, I know of lots of folks who left aa and they are doing just fine, still among the living, and enjoying a healthy life. And I like them because they are intelligent and rational people.

Best wishes,

Sunny

Peter

Hi Sunny1,welcome to the forum.

You said:

I assume you made a typo and that you meant "take" the programme.

I would just like to clarify that if that is what you meant.

Although Alcoholics Anonymous believes that alcoholism will inevitable lead to Jails,Institutions and death if left untreated it does NOT advocate that unless you accept the AA philosphy and programme you will die.

Many other organizations are well aware of the fact that Alcoholism can lead to death.AA is not the only one that believes this.But AA has NEVER NEVER NEVER claimed to have the only solution to the drinking dilemma.

In fact it believes quite the opposite and that individuals must be left alone to find their own path to recovery.

Of course,just like in many other "well meaning" groups you will always find the "die hard fanatics" who believe that there can be only one solution to the problem.But if you belive that the "do or die" concept applies to the general principles of AA you are surely mistaken.

Peter.