Peter

I ended up in AA and I am here on this recovery forum because at some point in my life I "lacked control over what went into my mouth."

I expect the same must be true for anyone who embraces a recovery programme for alcohol,be it AA, AVRT or RR.

Today I am happy to say that with the help of AA I have learned how to exercise some control over not only what goes into my mouth,but what comes out of it as well.

If we are to try and change the way some people view the "disease concept" of alcoholism, then perhaps we may need to change the definition of the term "disease" too.

Peter.

Ninerfan

Interesting discussion...I find myself in both camps, so to speak. While it is certainly true that I chose to drink, I didn't choose to become an alcoholic and all that that term entails. But I did the drinking, no excuses, no blame game, no ********. I am responsible and accountable for my actions. The 'fact' that AA calls alcolism a disease does not change the fact of my responsibility. Having the disease of alcoholism is not an excuse for anything. But I have to admit that this is the strangest damn 'disease' I ever heard of. To arrest it I merely stopped drinking. That doesn't follow the traditional models of diseases that we are accustomed to. But the AMA has decided it is a disease. That is the ball game and the end of the 'argument' for me. Like Jon and Peter I adhere to the 'allergy' model. It explains, physically, why I can't stop drinking even when I know I should.

I have a question for Munchdaddy and I don't mean to put you on the spot but I'm curious as to your history of drinking. You see when I start drinking I generally, almost always cant stop. It s not a question of choice, I cant or dont want to stop until I've passed out or gotten arrested or punched out etc. In my later years, right up until I finally quit, I even knew I shouldn't drink. I would tell myself, just two. Or I wont' drive tonight. Or if I do drive, I'll let someone else drive who is sober. Or I'll take a cab. I was aware that I was losing control but choosing not to drink was not an option. When I say I had to drink, that is exactly what I mean. I HAD to drink. I couldn't stop if I wanted to. I'm talking about me, not you, me. And the only time choice had any say in the matter was right up until I took that FIRST DRINK. After that first one, I was screwed.

My questions to you are....Did you drink the same way? Did you experience the same things? Did you start out to control how much you drank and at some point lost it? Cause if you didn't, then your right, your probably not an alcoholic.

This was way to long and thanks for listening.

Music

Hi all,
Hey Munch,
You said in your post:

"However, your belief is not based on fact. Webster’s defines a disease as “a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning.” While alcohol certainly impairs normal functioning, its consumption is not a condition of the human body; rather its presence in the human body is a choice."

I agree with you on the point of "choice." I chose to take every drink I ever took and to do every dastardly thing I ever did, however, according to your Webster definition, wouldn't the obsession of the mind, or the compulsivity of the "taking the first drink be defined as "parts that impair normal functioning"? ALL people CHOOSE to drink; most people aren't broke, so they CAN QUIT after the first drink.
Anyway, I said to hell with the disease concept a long time ago. I fit the definition of the "Real Alcoholic" in the Big Book so "Disease" doesn't matter to me. If I got it, I got it! If I don't....so what?:o

munchdaddy

Even though I learned a mental technique that is useful in achieving abstinence, every drink was a choice. It was only when I took personal responsibility for my actions, and stopped attributing them to a biological malady, was I able to stop the damaging behavior I was engaged in.
Not so as well. The official Webster’s definition I provided at no point mentions that a disease is the result of a personal choice.

munchdaddy

Ninerfan,
You are not putting me on the spot and I do not mind sharing. Side note, Marvin the Martian rocks!
I engaged in pretty much every behavior you described. Like I said, I drank ½ a bottle of vodka per day for 10+ years. Here is where we differ in opinion (that is not to say I am right and you are wrong, you are far more qualified to speak to your own situation than I.) I do not believe that I had no control over drink 2 or drink 22. I made every bad choice along the way. I will concur that I react differently to alcohol. I get an energy boost, cloud my thinking and want more. That made me chemically dependant. Alcoholic is not a term that I do not believe in. It goes hand in hand with the disease concept, which I do not believe as well. So, I quit “problem drinking” years ago and have never looked back. To me, diseases are empirically verifiable, involuntary, destructive conditions that are diagnosed by visible symptoms. Ingestion of alcohol, or any other toxin, does not fit into that description.
To each his own. The thing I like about this forum is that it is a good place to share opinions. While mine might not be popular to people who are "Working the Program" in AA, I appreciate people taking the time to hear mine.
AVRT for me AA for you. What are a couple of acronyms between friends.

Doug

Interesting thread....

Last week, I caught a cold, didn't do anything about it, it turned into bronchitis, which then turned to pnemonia. I landed in the hospital. It, (the cold/illness) progressed beyond what I could control, because I didn't "treat" it.

Same thing happens when I drink. It turns into something I can't control. If I don't drink and I don't work on my recovery, not only do I drink again, but I start drinking heavily and often. I start where I left off. It progressed.

Sometimes I wonder about the disease wording. I used to wonder about the alcoholic wording also. Cancer is a disease, no-one sets out to get it and it's sole purpose for being is to destroy the body. Alcoholism, no-one sets out to get it, and it also only destroys the body. They both start at some piont and end the same.

Is this my argument that alcoholism is a disease? Not really, just my thoughts on it.
Like I said at the start, interesting thread...

munchdaddy

Phoenix,
I thought we had agreed to disagree.
While lung cancer, diabetes,heart disease and liver disorders are all certainly diseases, the bad choices such as drinking, smoking and unhealthy diet that lead to them are not. By smoking too much, lung cancer is a risk, but you can still get lung cancer if you do not smoke. If you choose not to drink, the “disease of alcoholism” becomes a non-issue, and you cannot contract it elsewhere.

While I certainly fit this description, I was unaware that a belief in the disease concept was a prerequisit for being here.

phoenix

I suggested that,but you seem determined to argue.And now you are twisting my words.I never said anything to indicate that you had to believe alcoholism is a disease.You can believe anything you like.I simply wondered why a guy without a disease would be drawn to a recovery forum.

At any rate,I do not care to argue and had already deleted the post you quoted.

As a point of interest though...Websters Medical Dictionary has a definition of alcoholism.You can look it up


phoenix

munchdaddy

Phoenix,
I wonder why you take my posts so personally? I did not write one thing to you from the time you asked to agree to disagree and even apologized if I came across argumentative. You simply went back on that agreement by posting after I replied to jon, peter and ninerfan. Your words are your own and I in no way “twisted them.” You seem to think that I have to believe that I have a disease to have experience in and provide opinion on alcohol abuse. That is not the case. I was chemically dependent and quit and this is a forum to discuss these issues.

I see “disorder” but do not see disease. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

phoenix

You flatter yourself.My participation in an open discussion in no way indicates that I take your remarks personally.And you are splitting hairs in the disorder/disease comment.It's clear that your mind is closed on the subject,and that's fine.

Since my participation in this discussion seems unduly personal to you, I think it's best if I just step out of it.


Have a nice day.

phoenix

munchdaddy

Phoenix,
You removed yourself from the discussion because “you agreed to disagree” with me, and came back because you felt I “seem determined to argue.” You came to this decision based on my posts to other individuals. That would rationally indicate that you are taking my opinion personally. An observation that is surely not flattery of myself.

Splitting hairs? Funny the MW medical dictionary you are fond of makes a distinction between “disorder” and “disease" as well

Have a wonderful day as well.

SobrietyFirst

I've come late to this thread, but I cannot help but wonder how important a question this really is. I mean no disrespect to anyone who posted or is actively engaged in this thread. I only know but a few things about myself and my condition that I am actively addressing through AA.

Quote:
__________________________________________________

Facts are frequently challenged.Sometimes they are even disproved and then we have new facts.At this point I'm not sure what your definition of a fact is,nor do I understand why you are so determined to discredit the disease concept.
__________________________________________________

This particular blurb from a note by Phoenix triggered something for me, not by its question or intent, but by what would've happened to me had I engaged in this discussion early on in sobriety.

Had I been presented with the idea that alcoholism is not a disease, that it was a personal choice that I could control with techniques of one sort or another, I would never have come to terms with the fact that I am an alcoholic. Instead, I would have gotten wrapped up in the discussion, and remained in it long after other voices went silent.

You see, I didn't understand that my real problem was powerlessness. I didn't understand that my real problem was selfishness and ego-centrism. I didn't understand that my real problem was a lack of both the desire and ability to live life on life's terms. And I didn't understand that my own ego and pride were what was keeping me in that state if illusion, that I could control anyone and everything to get what I wanted or believed I had to have, that if I only managed better, whether it be my drinking, my drinving while I was drinking, my behavior in the company of others, the words I used, the actions I took, I would get what I wanted. That's really what life was about for me...getting all that I could no matter the cost to myself or those about me.

Had I been presented with that idea above, I would never have seen, or realized, that alcohol itself isn't really the problem for me, even though it is. My real problem lies elsewhere, in this inability to tolerate even the tiniest degree of reality, to live responsibly side by side with other people, to simply be myself and allow otherrs to do the same thing...words escape me for the most part here.

I have a fear here. That fear tells me that many do not remain with sobriety long enough to see that alcohol / drugs themself are only a symptom of a deeper problem. Many get confused really early on by questions such as this, and do not get far enough along to realize that the real problem is with living, that a solution is required that will address the overall problem, using AND living, to be truly effective.

There is but one pertinent fact for me. It does not matter how I define alcoholism...disease or not a disease. That is merely a distinction I would make in my mind alone, but once I define it to my own satisfaction, where does that leave me? I am not any better equipped to live life on life's terms in the company of other humans than I was before. I am no less selfish or ego-centric than before, no more free of myself and the varying forms of selfishness than I was before...in short, I haven't gotten anywhere.

The reality for me today is that I need help learning to live life as it is moment to moment. By whatever name I call it, my problem is broader than just whether or not I can safely drink, and my solution must be broad enough to address the overall set of problems that are a part of the overall condition. That's the real essence of it for me...not the label, but the overall solution.

Kinda rambled, but I'll leave all of this in the thread.

Blessings

munchdaddy

S.F.,
Thank you for your explanation of what works for you. I applaud your insight and effort as it relates to your personal improvement. The way I see it, there are different approaches to solve the same problem. For me, I am not powerless, I do not have a disease, and I do not need a program or group to remain abstinent. I need good sense and responsibility for the actions I take or don’t take. For me the “techniques of one sort or another” are AVRT and some REBT. These techniques are very powerful in stopping and staying stopped. For me my former abuse of alcohol and my past chemical dependency to it are irrelevant of spirituality and living. Those two things are far more important to be all consumed as a symptom of alcohol excess. This is why you choose AA and I choose what I choose. If the end result is abstinence, I guess we have both found our way.

Later

DolphinBlue

I thought you made a really good point there, Sobriety First. Personally, I became disillusioned with my recovery path early on, which included the disease concept, and tried another method which was based on the idea that alcohlism could be overcome using willpower. While it claimed to be able to keep me sober, I sure didn't feel sober. I felt miserable, bitter and egotistical. I understand that this is because I was already bitter about AA at the time, but my point is that it didn't seem to offer the kind of growth that was offered to me in my original chosen method, which happened to support the disease concept.

I've gone off track, I guess it doesn't matter to me much whether or not it is a disease. Sobriety comes first for me and to me that means more than not drinking, it means peace of mind and personal growth. I take it pretty literally - dis-ease - and it makes sense to me. I suppose its a personal thing.

Amy

Music

Well, sounds like we've got a little bit of RR creeping in here. Oh well, whatever works....works.:p

munchdaddy

Music,
If I am posting in the wrong place, please let me know. From post #1 I have freely stated that I use the AVRT technique of RR. Actually, my first post here was to explain to a person who uses AVRT that they were being dogmatic and condescending. I don’t feel as though I have been that way, I simply offered my opinion on a subject I feel strongly about. I do hope that even though I may have “creeped” in here, my opinions will still be welcome. I can assure you from first hand experience that the RR message board sux.

Peter

" Chronic,progressive potentially fatal psychological disorder,impairment of ability to work,tissue damage."

Hmmm...sounds like a disease to me or am I missing something?

We have heard literally tens of thousands testify to the fact that although they chose to take the first drink,years later when the condition had progressed the power to choose was lost.

This has certainly been my experience.

I will say it again.

I did not choose to be an alcoholic.I developed the disease of alcoholism because my body had an "allergic" reaction to alcohol.

Some athletes develop back injuries and knee injuries.Does it mean that these people do not have a valid illness because they "chose" to be an athlete?

Peter.

munchdaddy

I will not even entertain the athlete scenario. Injuries are far different from diseases. The medical dictionary uses the term “disorder” for a reason. To separate itself from the controversial “disease concept.”

Peter, I am also really sorry that you and others have no control over your own actions. That must be really difficult.

Peter

Munchdaddy,do you read all the posts?

I am well in control of my actions,but thanks for caring.

Peter.

munchdaddy

Sorry,
Rephrase;
I am sorry that you are in control of all of your own actions, except for when it comes to pouring a glass of alcohol and consuming it.