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Trigger Warning: AA/Suicide

Old 12-03-2015, 01:08 PM
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Trigger Warning: AA/Suicide

I lost a friend to suicide last Friday. I knew him through AA.

I first went to AA in October 2013, after a suicide attempt that very nearly succeeded. I've been sober for almost 20 months now, and I credit AA with my life, never mind my sobriety. I met S and he was funny, hugely smart and a gentle soul. He was also bipolar, and an alcoholic.

I haven't been to meetings very often lately. Last time I went I saw S, and was delighted. He was very 'up' and we chatted about our medication, as we often did. We parted with a hug. I never saw him again. He had been two and a half years sober.

Now to my problem. I love AA. I don't necessarily love all the people in it, but I know we are all just trying to get well. One of my friends is what I would call on the hardcore program. He has opined that S was 'stuck' on Step 6 and 'not moving forward'. A half-drunk bottle of vodka and a large amount of medication was found - apparently, S took the first drink and 'the remorse and self-pity' came back and that's why he's dead.

I am really struggling to reconcile this view with what I see as a complete tragedy. S was let down by mental health teams, and often struggled with his bipolar. I have avoided meetings as I know I wouldn't control my feelings (or my mouth) - surely if AA hadn't drummed the 'shame and guilt' into him, he might have asked for help?

I don't know. Can anyone help me make sense of this? The program got me sober. Why couldn't it help someone in real trouble? If a person had this insight into S's state of mind, should they try and help?

I'm sorry to bring up such a sad subject. I just want to try to understand.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:25 PM
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It's impossible to say "why" anyone would take their life Chickippo...sorry for your terrible loss.

Don't try to "blame" anyone or any group for the tragedy. It's easy to second guess in these types of situations. Could his mental health team have done more? Certainly - but it could have made things worse too. Could he have done more in AA? Sure..but that is no guarantee that the outcome would have been any different.

If AA works for you continue to use it help you heal. I'm sure there are many others with the same feelings you have, grieving is part of the process that hurts..but it's necessary.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:33 PM
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chickipo, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. Usually people don't know what to say, think or do when this kind of thing happens. I have been there. A lot of times they want to blame the person who did it because they are simply not capable of comprehending why someone would do that. It sounds like that guy is victim blaming. It's a common reaction.

I am also sorry to hear that the mental health industry let him down.

And also that people shamed or guilt tripped your friend. Unfortunately these reactions are all too common when it comes to mental illness.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:48 PM
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Most importantly, I am truly sorry for the anguish and pain of losing your friend. That must be very difficult for you, sorry.

As with SR, the fellowship of AA simply shares experience, strength and hope of what is was like - what happened and what it is like now. It is cruel and ignorant for someone in the fellowship to offer up nonsensical opinions regarding why a friend killed themselves. That's awful......

Please keep working your program as best as you can. That is all any of us can do.

Kind Regards
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:59 PM
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I'm really sorry for your loss this has happened to me if you ever want to talk drop a pm

Sending prayers

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Old 12-03-2015, 02:15 PM
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It's natural to look for answers but I don't think it's particularly useful to think about blame.

When I was suicidal I wanted to die...that was it. There wasn't much logic involved. I hated my life, I hated myself and I saw no expectation of change.

I had friends and family and support systems. I simply turned away from them all.

This is a great link - I hope you read it chickippo and I hope it helps in some way

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-what-if.html
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Old 12-03-2015, 02:35 PM
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I don't get the impression you are trying to blame anyone. Rather it seems to me that someone oversimplified this tragic situation - perhaps due to a lack of information about your friend and filtering everything through AA vision - and that has been confusing and hurtful. I can totally understand how you might feel that way.

If it were me, I would ask myself whether I could just let this go, or whether it was something I wanted to bring up either with this person alone or with the group. In your view, as someone who knew this person, it was more than a 'step 6' issue, but also about this person being let down by mental health services. If we are speaking about not blaming, perhaps it is relevant to ask whether your friend 'S' should shoulder it all when public mental health services might need to be held accountable. It's about truth and honour. I don't see why anyone in AA should be threatened by that.

I'm really sorry for how you must be feeling (((hugs)))
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:05 PM
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had a few people i know kill themselves too. ive heard people say horrible things about people who commit suicide. IE he was a coward, or that was a very selfish thing to do etc.. and sure i can see those sides of the coin I've always been one to say hey have some sympathy for this guy to use those kinds of words you clearly have no idea what its like to be at your wits end and ready to do yourself in. Its not exactly a cowardly or selfish act from the view of the person doing it etc..

its very sad tho it always devastates those around the person. what if this what if that etc... the what if games dont accomplish anything but I guess its part of the process to ask these questions.

For me I look at how it affects those around the person who did it. thats always been my motivation to not actually follow through. as close as i've come i'm like no no i cant do that to my family etc.. tho at the tail end of my drinking i started to not care what they'd think i figured they'd get over it soon enough and i'd be nothing more then another grain of sand on a beach. That sorta started to scare me but at the time I didnt care.

People say a lot of things in reality regardless of opnion its still a sad event.

hang in there.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:09 PM
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keep in mind too people sometimes tend to demonize things just so it helps them feel better.

I could preach about the horrible affects of smoking and basicly trick myself into not wanting one and demonize the habit and possibly make a fellow smoker feel crappy for there habit. what was the point was i trying to help him or trying to keep me from smoking?

One person I know refred to someone who commitied suicide as a coward. I thought geeze dood your own mother killed herself is she also a coward? But I think it just makes him feel better to put this other person down and demonize him etc..

some people cope differently i guess.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:34 PM
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Yes, I think it's a coping mechanism. We all cope differently, some swing to blame of the person or other people or events, some use the feelings to reinforce themselves (say, by attributing the outcome to the person having not done something that they feel is critically important to them). It's always sad and tragic. I've known quite a few suicides over the years, and I remember one in particular where I did demonize the person because he put many people including me through a lot of grief. It was my coping mechanism, it felt better to be angry than sad. Now, many years later, and having been quite suicidal towards the end of my drinking days (I think the only reason I'm alive now is that I was too drunk to take action, it was easier to just get more drunk), I view things differently.
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:44 PM
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It is so terribly sad but if you are in the recovery community for very long you have to get used to walking among the tombstones.

Why do some make it and others don't? Why did I make it? Why can't I drink like other people?, Why am I still alive after 30 years of drug and alcohol abuse?

The answer is, "I don't know." I do know the only person that can save me is me. It is me that has to take the actions necessary to get and stay sober. God will do for me what I can't do for myself but he won't do what I can.

I have lost a bunch of people in my six years and unfortunately I'm sure to lose a bunch more.

Alcohol wants us dead and it is successful far too often.

Prayers going out to you and all those who loved him
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Old 12-03-2015, 03:51 PM
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I'm sorry you lost your friend, chickippo. May he rest in peace.

It is a somber reminder that this thing wants to kill us.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:42 PM
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I knew a lot of people when I went to aa who suicided, people with a lot of years and a strong program. Every one of them had a mental or chronic illness. To say they weren't trying hard enough is baffling, and quite frankly upsets me. It's tragic that mental illness is so misunderstood, to the point of blaming the sufferer. The steps are not a cure for mental illness and should never be treated as one. Look at bill Wilson for christs sakes , he was chronically depressed throughout his sobreity, but when some of us aren't happy joyous or free peopl have the gall to say we aren't working the steps thoroughly?? Psshhhh I worked the steps several times but I needed much much more then that for my mental illness.

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sad to hear we've lost another to mental illness. I am happy to see so many young students studying psychology , we have a long ways to go but I think things will change and we will have more options for those afflicted.
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Old 12-04-2015, 11:09 AM
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thank you all. you have brought me to tears with your kindness. i have a lot to think about. thank you Dee for the link.

last night another friend in AA was drunk, and texted me such horrible things. saying i'm a dry drunk, that i think i'm special because i have mental illness. i know she is hurting. we are all hurting. but i can't be a punchbag.

i'll keep reading and i'll keep my mind open. thank you again.
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Old 12-04-2015, 11:56 AM
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I am very sorry to hear about your friend. On the other hand I am delighted to see you are not talking about drinking, which tells me you must have made great progress in your own recovery.

I have a very dear friend in AA, the man who was the first to call me the morning after my last drink. I'll never forget his lindness and understanding. H esuffere badly from bi-polar. He never liked taking his lithium. In fact now he is dealing with kidney failure due to it. But it was a medication he had to take in order to survive.

Periodically he would try and take himself off it. As he explained it to me, that made him high, and in that state he would believe that he could drink again. I can relate in a limited way. One of my longest spells of miserable sobriety ended with a few puffs of a get high chemical, which lead to a drink in seconds.

Once he took the first drink, the combination of alcohol and the lack of medication lead to absolute chaos. He would have to go back to the mental hospital and it would take months to stabilise him. Anything could have happened in that time, but thankfully the worst consequences were avoided.

Not sure I understand the reference to guilt and shame. I came in with barrow loads of the stuff and not much else. The AA program helped me repair that damage "we will not regret the past or wish to shut the door on it". It turned my liabilities into assetts "no matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can help others" But I draw a distinction between the fellowship ( meetings) and the program (the steps).

In meetings I sometimes hear a great deal of ignorance about the illness of alcoholism, and the AA method of recovery. Blaming someone for a slip because "he chose" to take a drink, doesn't tally with the fact that alcoholics like me have lost the power of choice and at certain times have no effective defence. My Bi Polar friend understood that and he helped me find a defence. He didn't waste time berating me for something that was beyond my power to control. He showed compassion and empathy for my situation.

Guilt tripping and shaming has not been a part of my AA experience.
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Old 12-04-2015, 01:24 PM
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Very sorry to hear of the death of your good friend "S". It is very unfortunate to hear of such incidents. I love what AA and sobriety has given me and try my best to cherish each day. Working at sobriety can be tough. Some of us wrestle many demons along the way. I fear if I were to take one drink, it would be my last binge. I can no longer go back to that life that I once lived.
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Old 12-04-2015, 01:31 PM
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You are definitely not a punchbag and, while I'm sorry for your friend who's drinking, it's great you realise that, chickippo

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Old 12-04-2015, 01:43 PM
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ultimately i have to protect myself and my sobriety. i haven't thought about taking a drink for...blimey, months now, and i won't be drinking over this.

i won't turn my back on the program, but i will stand firm. i dunno, humans always find the capacity to hurt each other. if i could fix that i could rule the world!
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Old 12-04-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by chickippo View Post
last night another friend in AA was drunk, and texted me such horrible things. saying i'm a dry drunk, that i think i'm special because i have mental illness. i know she is hurting. we are all hurting. but i can't be a punchbag.
we dont grovel before no one and are not doormats.

its quite a blessing to know i can accept people for the way they are but do not have to allow unacceptable behavior.
voicing that in the proper way......
ive still got work there. sometimes its came out sideways, but it had to be said.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:50 AM
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I'm so sorry for the tragic loss of your friend. It sounds like there is a lot of painful grieving going on in your neck of the woods Chickippo.

I agree that you need to protect your sobriety first, and it sounds like you're going to needs a bucketful of acceptance and a heart full of forgiveness, love and understanding for your fellow AAers who may have gone back out or reacting to this by saying unhelpful things if you're going to stay resentment free and focussed on your own program. Maybe it'd be worth going to some different meetings where this man was not known (or not known so well) so that this is easier to do.

This 'Do it anyway' prayer often gives me some relief when I'm struggling to find myself in a state of acceptance, so I'm passing it on just in case it helps. Feel free to ignore it if you prefer...

God, help me to accept that people may be unreasonable and self-centred. Let me forgive them anyway.
Help me to accept that if I’m kind, people may accuse me of ulterior motives. Let me be kind anyway.
Help me to accept that if I find happiness, people may be jealous. Let me be happy anyway.
Help me to accept that the good I do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Let me do good anyway.
Help me to accept that I may give the world my best, and it may never be good enough. Let me give my best anyway.
God, help me to remember that it is between you and me. It was never between me and them anyway.

Likewise - the resentment prayer has saved me from some painful places. And when I most need it is when I seem to find it hard to remember it - so here you go with that one as well...

God, I have a resentment towards X that I want to be free of.
So I am asking you to give X everything I want for myself.
Help me feel compassion; understanding and love for X.
I pray that X will receive everything they need.
Thank you for your help and strength with this resentment.

PS Regarding the guilt and shame. Alcohol always brought me guilt and shame eventually, way before I came to AA or did step work. I found that nothing ever in my life helped me find such relief from my guilt and shame than step 4 and 5 did. I also got a little stuck on step 6 for a time, until I'd prayed for the willingness to leave those character defects behind and to be able to let go of my ego and fear which were holding me back for some time. I suppose I was still getting 'who I am' and 'what I did' confused. They'd been become as enmeshed in my head as two colours of plasticine rolled in together. Anyway - one day it just seemed to happen, and it did bring me some relief. I was no longer fearful of becoming the hole in the polo mint, and was 'entirely ready to have God remove all those defects of character'. Maybe the AAer who asserted that he was stuck on that step had experienced similar feelings - many of us get a bit 'stuck' on certain steps (if they were all easy we'd not need sponsors; the BB; the 1 & 12; and study meetings to get us through them), so it's not a criticism as such - although admittedly we're all better to focus on our own program than be the judge of others.
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