CarolD

: midnightblue.....Welcome to our SR Alcoholism Forum.

Gmoney

Tedseeker,

If a person could think their way out of addiction...there would be no addicts.

If a person could stop using simply because a family member or friend has done some extensive research and wants to help...there would be no addicts.

If we rely solely on polls, statistics and opinions, there would be a mountain of information that isn't accounted for. For ever "school of thought" there is an opposing school of thought - each with compelling backup for their THEORIES. Sure, there may be "many" addicts that quit after visiting a doctor and simply talking about their problem. But are they really addicts? Or are they abusers who think they've become addicted? I'm a recovering addict, and I've met hundreds of other recovering addicts since I've been clean. NOT ONE was able to stop using that easily. It wasn't my experience, nor the experience of any addict I've met. Is it possible? Maybe...but I doubt it. I'm sorry, but it appears you're got a heavy dose of wishful thinking. Then again...go for it. Who knows? Your brother may be an exception. I guess it's too bad that millions of addicts go through the revolving door of treatment programs and don't find recovery as easily as the "many" you refer to. Not to mention the multitude of addicts that get incarcerated or die without finding recovery. Maybe their not included in the studies you've read.

I guess it's pretty easy for someone who hasn't suffered from addiction to conclude that quiting/stopping is based on a "rational decision" related to "cost vs the benefit." I don't know what's rational about addiction, nor do I know anyone who can honestly say that they thought rationally while addicted. I'm struggling with how anyone can conclude that money (or the lack of) can be a deterrent. I mean, what about all the addicts that committ crimes to feed their addictions? I was one of them and found ways to get my drugs for years without income.

Question: Is loss of control an appearance or a reality when a college educated, tax paying, law abiding citizen [1] losses a high paying job after working for that company for 20 years, [2] losses 75 pounds because he'd rather get high than eat, [3] goes for weeks without bathing or changing clothes, [4] uses for days on end without sleep, [5] commits crimes, knowing full well the consequences but does it anyway to get more drugs, [6] or exposes himself to disease via high risk behaviors?

I could go on and on, but I'll stop. A new idea cannot be grafted upon a closed mind, and blind hope can be just as bad as being hopeless. I wish you the best in your attempt to get your brother's life back on track. My only concern now is that you don't run him away with an obsessive need to fix something that isn't yours to fix. His addiction isn't something you can "figure out" - no matter how many books you read, studies you've ran across or opinions you've heard about. I'm sorry.

tflms

KatieMay

It isn't acting out against YOU, it is built around what our physical and psych needs are, and how strongly they draw us in as addicts. It is the chemistry of it. Those who don't have it can never understand it. They say, "Just don't do it." It is never that simple for us. Like suicide. It isn't attempted to hurt YOU. It is because of OUR pain, that doesn't go away. Or the screaming in our heads that never stops. You can't possibly feel how it feels to be inside of our heads and bodies. It is impossible for us to make you feel what we feel when we need something that badly, that makes us drink or use that much. No one else or nothing else matters then. And only we can stop and only for reasons that make sense to us, at the time. Otherwise it would not work, not forever, anyway. We don't like ourselves this way, but we are made this way. We become more addicted also, in order to medicate our dislike for ourselves. And to dull the pain as much as we can. To block whatever possible. A vicious cycle it is. And it keeps going. Or we stop it. But it has to be our choice, for whatever reason that is. Not because someone else wants us to. We all have our own reasons, and I don't think I've heard two that are the same yet, to be honest with you. You should stay on this site and go to Al-Anon. Very helpful, good information and great people willing to help everyone from what I've seen. I'm just 18 days sober and never thought I could make it past 4 hours. Ciao for now, K.

KatieMay

What made me stop 18 days ago? A DUI, put in jail and the SECOND night in jail (no, not the first, mind you-- it took til the second, it did).

Strategies-- keeping DAMN busy, writing like a fiend, self-analysis, reading my AA book, exercise, working, working on looking and feeling better, eating better again, drinking juice or something that takes my mind off vodka or beer, not watching commercials or going near bars or clubs or whatever that triggers my great desire to party and socialize and drink like crazy, and talking to God a LOT, and thanking him for slapping me in the face and making me stay in that jail that 2nd night so that I would come to my senses and know that it WAS time to stop for good. Ciao, K.

PrayingLately

ss- I can answer all of your questions - because I have done it all..
It feels like crap to hurt your family - especially my mother - and my children.. You need to understand that it is not your fault.. it's just something that alot of people are going thru right now - it's not anything you did. It's the stress of society..
I am a married/homemaker - with only 1 left at home - my life is perfect - and there really is no reason that i use other than out of boredom.. it's not my moms fault - or my kids..
anyway.. users use for an escape - from something.. maybe they dont even know what it is..
Just be patient - it will get better..

barb dwyer

Which brings us back to the chicken and the egg....

This is one INTERESTING thread!

Garry - zowie. How very articulate. Thank you for your honesty. Some of your post could have been taken right out of my own experience; then written better than I'd have ever managed it.

Groucho - beautiful. Thank you.

Ted - I think you're to be commended for your dedication to helping your brother. Reading your struggles to understand tugs at my heart, it really does.
Ted, honey, you're not going to 'understand' the mentality, or the physical ... or the emotional needs/drives/gratifications of your brother. It's just not going to happen. Perhaps you can get to a place where you can 'predict' it, (what the alcoholic might do next) but you'll never 'understand' it.
"They" can run studies till the cows come home and there's just not going to be enough information to satisfy that which is not in your own makeup to understand... not the way you're looking for it. I am sorry for us both that this is so.
But you are never going to understand this disease as if you're looking through your brother's eyes.

Just as he is never going to understand why you even tried.

With God's grace, someday your brother will appreciate how much you care for him.
Those who are not alcoholic ... but who love alcoholics ... must have to come to trust their HP to remain sane ... as much as any alcoholic has to learn to trust their HP in order to remain sane.

Therein might lie the common ground.

GrouchoTheCat

This is an incredable thread and I thank you S.S for starting it.

I so want to say more, and I will, but I have to go to work.

Hi Ted, I hope you can find a place of loving detachment where your brother is concerned.

I will sign as Groucho, 'cause it seems there are two Teds now!

Kellye C

Ted,
I'm not sure how to answer this as there were many factors involved but I'll take a stab at it. #1 Regarding having hope to overcome my fears earlier on. I was in a deep depression and didn't have hope of much period. I was in an awful job making pitiful money, I was trying desperately to keep all the balls in the air with regards to rent, bills, my kids (one of which is bi-polar and while stable now was pretty awful then). I spent my days overwhelmed EXCEPT when I could drink to stay passed out. If I'm not conscious I don't have to deal with the unpleasantness of my life. Makes absolutely no sense to me today but at the time made total sense. #2 I didn't start getting the really bad withdrawals and stuff until about a year before I quit and I quickly figured out that a drink would quickly stop it - for a while. #3 By the time I realized I was in as bad a shape as I was I was terrified and mortified. I am one who is used to dealing with stuff on my own or better yet dealing with your stuff. Me saying I had a problem and needed help was just not something I did. I finally did and needless to say my family (except my kids) was astounded but as addiction can do, I admitted it at a weak moment and then a little later my addiction started doing damage control telling me - oh come now, it's not THAT bad. Just cut down some, don't drink as much and it will be fine, you'll see. And I bought into that.

Now to answer the fear of withdrawals thing, I don't know if you have ever been through them (I'm not sure of your status - alcoholic or family/friend of one) but for me they were brutal. Shaking to the point that it looked like I was having seizures. Startle reflex so bad that the least little motion or brush against me caused me to jump 10 foot (Not literally but you get what I mean), auditory hallucinations, throwing up, diarrhea, no sleep whatsoever. I worked contract at the time and had no insurance. If not, I may have considered a de-tox to help with the symptoms but I felt like I had no options regarding that - plus my pride wanted me to just handle it myself - which I was terrified to do. I wasn't exactly thinking rational at that point so trying to look back now and explain it after the fact is difficult but I hope I've done a good enough job to somewhat answer your questions.

Hugs,
Kellye

tedseeker

What makes an addict stop, if not having made a decision then? I know they are forced to sometimes by jail, but even those who have the strongest addictions have stopped on their own without jail.


I totally agree about the statistics being inadequate, or even misleading. But, the idea that it gets worse over time for everybody is not borne out by one of the largest studies ever conducted. The NIAAA in 1992 interviewed over 4500 Americans who were "alcohol dependant" according to the diagnostic manual of the American Psyciatric Association. This meant that they suffered from chronic alcohol-related problems (family, legal, etc.) that they were unable to curtail. Worse than alcohol abuse. 74 percent of those were never treated AND did not have a drinking problem in the year prior to the interview, and 58 pct were currently drinking without abusing alcohol..

So, for most alcoholics, there is hope. I know that your experience, and that of my brother, and of others here, has not been so fortunate. And I do respect that. I know and respect that the effect of alcohol had been overwhelming.


I think you may be confusing my use of the word "rational" with "moral". When someone does something against their own moral nature in order to feed their addiction, I'm not suggesting they feel ok about it. I think they are obsessed to the point of not caring ENOUGH to not do it. Some people are able to care enough to stop. Others aren't. That is part of the cost vs benefit. What is the moral cost vs the short term benefit of the erasing of pain? This is a decision that requires rational thinking, though the decision may be to let the morals slide.

The reason I say this goes back to the many times I've seen my brother (who drinks early in the morning and then moderates throughout the day, and then drinks till he passes out) abstain for half a day or so whenever plans make it very inconvenient to drink as he would prefer. He does this despite having the shakes and craving it all the time. He rationally decides to control his drinking to an extent. I also say it because of the studies that have shown the myth of being unable to stop once a person has had a drink. Those were conducted on the most severe alcoholics. With enough incentives, they voluntarily stopped after the first drink. These kinds of seemingly rational imposition of willpower and control somehow need to be explained if they are in fact something else.


You clearly wanted the alcohol/drugs more than you wanted those other things. I don't mean that in a critical way. The payoff for them was worth it for some reason--as you said, you were obsessed and totally self-absorbed. That has payoffs that you valued at the time. When you finally quit, something made you decide those payoffs weren't worth it anymore, right?


I totally agree. The problem is that I keep wanting to believe that people even in the worst of addictions aren't totally closed off..that there is a glimmer of hope and opportunity. It can't necessarily be on my clock, but since there are addicts (examples even in this very thread) who have quit in part due to the help and support of other people I never can feel comfortable with completely stopping trying. At the same time, I understand that I can't let his life rule mine, and that I can't be an enabler for his addiction.

thank you Gary,

ted

tedseeker

I wrote: It should have said "4500 Americans who had at some past time in their lives been 'alcohol dependant' ". sorry for any confusion,

ted

CarolD

Welcome to KatieMay and PrayingLately

Pick-a-name

ted: I understand how you feel (one reason I read this thread with such interest). If you haven't already joined us over at the Family and Friends Forum, I hope that you do. I'll be looking for you!

I know the feeling that "there must be something you can do" to make him understand,etc....anything short of watching him self-destruct. I hated hearing I could only help myself and pray......but it seems to be the truth; hard as that is (for me,too) to accept. Sometimes when we start taking care of ourselves, by the Grace of God,that seems to be when things start to shift for the addicted loved one,too. I had to realize that me going down with exhusband was not helping him,me and certainly was making things even more difficult for our children and that is why I knew I had to start helping myself....and it does make a difference;for all of us.

Thanks to all you who are sharing and reminding me that I am doing the right thing...some days it doesn't feel that way. Love and prayers to you all!

Kellye C

Pick, that is such a valid point. We all know that the loved ones of alcoholics and addicts can become as sick as if not sicker than the addict. Nobody can force another to want help. Nobody is that powerful. All we have control over is ourselves. We can work on our own issues and ensure that we are not allowing others problems to make us sick, that we are not enabling a sick person to remain that way, and that we are healthy for those that need us (such as our kids). I am speaking as a codie on this one since I have lived both sides of that fence.

Now putting on my alcoholic hat, nobody could MAKE me get well. I had to hit my bottom and become willing to walk through fear and do something different before I had a chance at a meaningful recovery. My loved ones never gave up hope on me but they couldn't do anything for me. I had to do the work but they were my biggest cheerleaders and that meant (and means) so very much to me.

Don't give up hope on loved ones but don't give up your life either. Go on with your plans, hopes and dreams hard as it may be. If you believe in prayer then by all means pray for your loved one but never forget the three C's of Al-Anon. You didn't Cause it, you can't Control it, and you can't Cure it.

Much love,
Kellye

GlassPrisoner

Mine did.......

These people give good advice. Friends and family, Alanon.....I've nothing to really add.

Gmoney

First, I'd like to apologize to anyone who has been offended by me responding to this thread. I guess I should have paid closer attention, but when I saw the original question (What do you tell yourself when you're an addict?), I assumed addicts could (or should) respond. I certainly qualify as an addict, and in the start of my recovery process I referred to myself as an alcoholic-addict. Drinking has been a problem for me also.

Tedseeker, I wish you the best and I also sincerely hope that your brother finds the desire to stop drinking and find a new way to live. I know that there's always hope. I'm going to try to answer a couple of your questions and then I'll surrender. What will be, will be and only time will tell how your situation will turn out. It may be that nothing I share with you can change your views, and that's okay.

Pain can be a great motivator, yet there are those who have an unlimited tolerance for pain. Personally, I prefer not to go by what specialists have written, but by those who have walked the walk. For some, the decision to stop wasn't made by them. They'll tell you it was Divine Intervention. For me, it was just like the slogan: "I was tired of being sick and tired." I reached a point where I fully understood that I could not control my disease. I was beaten thoroughly. Just as you can point out those "who have the strongest addictions have stopped on their own without jail," I can tell you from experience that there are those who had just as strong addictions that couldn't stop. I guess it depends on whom you prefer to believe or feel is credible. I could tell you stories of alcoholics that made wine in the jailhouse toilets. But, I answered your question before you asked it previously when I said a "bottom" had to be reached. I'll also add that I've never met (not read about) an addict/alcoholic that stopped on their own. They all needed help.

If you disagree that statistics or studies can be inadequate or misleading, why did you quote one? I've never said that addiction gets worse over time for everybody, those are not my words. For most...yes, I'd stick my neck out and say it gets worse for most - but there are always exceptions. What I do recall saying is that each addict (or alcoholic) may differ in degree of sickness and the "bottom" they reach can differ from addict to addict. For the sake of argument, lets say that in 1992 there were over 4.5 million alcoholics in America (very possible to be more). The study you refer to would only represent .001% of the alcoholics in America. My point is that there are millions that aren't accounted for, so the conclusions are almost meaningless.

Sorry, I didn't confuse anything. You seem to be confused, or better yet... uninformed. Addiction, whether to alcohol or any other substance, is never about morality. We suffer from a disease, not a moral dilemma. It's not about good or bad, and rarely about right or wrong. Once again you're speaking as if obsession is a choice. Just as you point out that SOME people (whomever they are) care enough to stop, there are a vast majority that cared just as much but COULD NOT STOP. Rational thinking is something that many addicted persons lack the capacity of (or it is reduced drastically). It just doesn't happen. It's easy for someone who isn't addicted (or never was) to say that they "should be" rational. You don't understand and maybe you won't. Have you ever seen the movie, "Days Of Wine and Roses?" (1962) Give it a look with an open mind, and you might just come away with a better understanding of how insidious alcoholism/addiction is. One thing for sure, you'll certainly see how addiction causes loss of control. Another film worthy of watching is "Snowflakes In The Jungle." In this film, a team of scientist, doctors and addiction specialists concluded that addiction was located in a specific area of the brain and with this area removed, there would be no addiction or cravings. The subject who underwent the surgery went back to active addiction within a year. Rational??? Moral??? Neither...it's called addiction.

You miss the point. I didn't want them...I had to have them, I was addicted! You clearly don't understand what it means. There was no choice, no option and no preference. I knew long before I quit that there wasn't any "payoff" and using was killing me. There was no "worth" in using, only existence to fill the need (not want).

As I said, there are always exceptions and there is always hope. Many recover. Many die. The key to recovery lies in the alcoholic/addict developing a desire to stop using. If the desire is strong enough (based on their experience), they reach a point of surrender. The paradox here is that through surrender they win. Like you said, there are addicts who quit IN PART due to help they received. That part, I contend, is major but very small. Recovery has to be sought, not provided. I suggest that you never give up being there for your brother, as I never give up being here for mine, yet always remember that YOU are powerless over his alcoholism as well as his addiction.

Be blessed.
GarryW

Pick-a-name

I think my AH gave up on me,too.........

Spiritual Seeker

Excellent dialogue between the alkies, addicts and Alanons. Thank you all so much for this meaningful exchange and sheeding light on both sides.

tedseeker

Belief is a powerful thing. I freely admit that I don't want to believe that there is no rationality to the process of getting addicted and then stopping. To do so means to me that no one has any control over addiction. That willpower and character have no role to play. That social help of other people have no role to play. Yet, the evidence I've seen suggests otherwise. There is a debate in the field about whether addiction is really a disease or not. I currently don't believe it is. But, I do believe it is a very complicated and insidious behavioral malady. And, I believe the cure exists and it requires the addressing the same factors that led to habitual use in the first place. I don't believe in powerlessness over behavior because addicts do exert power and some control. I do believe in general loss of control, willpower, call it what you want, over time as the substance becomes a part of one's body and mind. The only cure is to get it out of the body and mind.

So, we have different beliefs. You come from the place of having been there. I don't. Others can judge that as they see appropriate.

I am here to learn, however, even if it seems like I am unwilling to let go of my beliefs. To that end, I will comment a bit on what you have written.

It motivates because the person makes a decision about it. When the pain of continuing to use overrides their perceived benefits of addiction (one of the perceived benefits is simply to avoid the pain of stopping), a person will consider stopping.

This is what scares me and what is sad. It seems to me that those who tolerate and never do quit somehow have lost faith that the pain can go away in sobriety..that it can work for them.


This sounds to me like you reached a point at which you rationally decided to stop. It didn't happen to you. You made it happen. You took control. You exercised willpower. That seems to be a dirty word in the addiction field, but to me it is golden. Because that is what works.


Because it was one of the largest studies ever, and conducted by the NIAAA.


I should have mentioned that the 4500 alcoholics were identified from a random selection of 42,000 Americans. The margin for error is therefore almost zero. IF they defined the 'alcohol dependant' group properly, and the respondants were being honest and understood the questions correctly, the conclusion seems to be not only meaningful, but profound: Most of those who once were alcohol dependant who never even got treatment were no longer alcohol dependant. This seems to put into doubt the industry's claims regarding the necessity of treatment, and inevitability of the untreated dying of alcoholism.


I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way. When a person howls at the moon in a drunken state and is personally embarrassed by that, he is hurting his own self-respect by continuing to drink. What he does in response to his own self-destructiveness is a moral issue to himself. He/she is aware that he can get treatment any day of the week, but when he decides not to do so, he is sinning against his own self--because he perpetuates the reduced self-respect. That is wrong. Maybe not against anyone else. But it is wrong against himself.

Even if he is obsessed, he still probably would feel remorse also. Just as he can pick up the bottle as one way to respond, he can also decide to stop as another. To not respect one's own feelings in favor of the addiction is a moral choice--a devastating one.

I had an obsession for 15 years that I dealt with. I would ask myself "why am I doing this". I knew that it wasted hours of my time. Perhaps 15-20 hours in a week for years at a time. I knew that the payoff was minor. I knew that I really should have been doing other things. I knew that it was socially unacceptable. Yet I did it. Why? I knew why. I was bored and I enjoyed the anticipation involved, and it was easier than face the pain that accompanied the 'acceptable' way of handling my need for excitement and love. I was obsessed. But, I had a choice. When I owned up to the fact that it was a sign of deficiency in my life and then I moved, I decided it was easier to quit at that time. The payoff wasn't worth it and the habit was easier to break because I didn't think about it the same way when I moved--the surroundings were different so the 'triggers' I was used to weren't there.

This definitely plays into my beliefs about addiction.





Sounds interesting. All we can conclude from that is that addiction is more than just a section of the brain. I'll bet if they removed the entire brain though that it would have worked!



This is where I don't get it. To me, a need creates a want. And that fulfillment of that need is the payoff. Maybe you were to the point of simply needing to use in order to avoid withdrawal and nothing else. That would be awful. But, it is still something you wanted because you needed it. You chose to fulfill your need. Had you chose not to you would have been miserable. Maybe this is all semantics. I don't mean to provoke.


I think that the ability to develop a desire that we don't currently have is sometimes within our power, but that it is a struggle we all have in life. The key is knowing how to desire what is good for us more than what is bad for us. We all feel like "I want what I want and there is nothing anyone else or even I can do about it". That is a lie we tell ourselves, I think, because our desires come from our feelings, and our feelings come from 1. thinking differently and 2. doing different things.

So, if we think or do different things we can change our feelings which can change our desires. It is very difficult becuase it is against our basic nature to do new things--especially as we get older --into our late teens and beyond--and our beliefs about our own limitations and the limitations others impose on us are more solidified. Rigidity and inflexibility forms and it is a type of "learned helplessness", where sometimes when the solution is staring you right in the face you still don't see it.

Hope, faith and love are everything.

Thanks so much Gary. Even though we see this differently at this point, I really appreciate it. And, I COMPLETELY believe that addiction can be extremely unpleasant for those that for whatever reasons require a real low bottom to change, and those that never find the bottom. Even though I am a big believer in the ability of people to change themselves, I don't think less of those who don't and I don't look down on those suffering from addiction. I know it hurts, inprisons, and confuses. The only really human response should be compassion.


ted

Spiritual Seeker

have we heard enough on this topic or would others like to share what you tell yourself when you're an addict. What is the mindset of an alcoholic. It helps the rest of understand this thief in the night called addiction,who robs us of our loved one,

tedseeker

I'm sorry, SS, and everyone else here if I took the thread off topic some. If anyone wants to respond to my prior posts, please just send me a pm.

I too would like to hear what alcoholics are thinking while they use, as it may help me understand my brother better.

thanks,

ted