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What do you tell yourself when you're an addict

Old 05-26-2007, 08:22 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I don't know SS - I certainly don't want to absolve myself of the responsibilty for the things I did - but these last two months or so sober have been like I just stepped back into the room after 15 years away....I was different as a junkie (mostly booze in my case but no less an addict...pretty much 24/7 when my body and wallet could stand it)

for me, it took a while and it progressed incrementally over the 15 years, but by the end nothing was as important as being drunk or high. Nothing.

D

That's the way I feel about my exAH....he pretty-much looks the same,but..... "the lights are on but no one (at least not "him") is home"

Thanks for sharing your E,S,and H....it helps!
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Old 05-26-2007, 09:43 PM
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What thoughts do you have about yourself when you know you are one. What do you tell yourself to justify your actions. What does it feel like to see the pain in your mother's eyes?
First of all, I'm assuming your questions are concerning the thoughts (or mindset) of an addict that is still using or in "active addiction" and is fully aware that they are one (an addict). I think what needs to be understood is that there is very much more that happens before that point is reached.

In the beginning, using is fun. Getting high is often a means for obtaining acceptance from our peers. We just want to fit in - usually with the wrong crowd. ("Everybody's doing it!") Sometimes it happens as a result of experimentation and we end up liking the sense of euphoria, relaxation and escape the high provides. That's when the problem starts because once we enjoy the result, we do it more and more often. It become a habit, a ritual... a part of our everyday existence. What we think about ourselves at this point is that we're just having fun and enjoying being young. We think we're "normal." Being normal requires no justification or explanation.

As our addiction progresses and we begin to experience consequences of our using, most of us fail to see our part in our problems. Denial doesn't allow it. We may even ask ourselves, "Could it be the drugs?" But, more times than not, we'll find something else to blame our problems on. I blamed my friends, my teachers, my co-workers, my upbringing (including my mother). I couldn't accept being an addict and refused to see myself as equal to the preconceived image of what an addict was (or is). Society paints such an ugly picture of the addict, and we buy into that. So if we don't remotely resemble that picture, we stay in denial. It's easier. My thoughts during this period was that everybody is trying to control my life. Why don't they just leave me alone???!!!???

By the time I know I have a problem it almost too late to feel for anyone else. I'm caught in the grip of my addiction and my primary concern is to feed my obsession. The thoughts I have for myself at this point are a mixture of depression, hopelessness, helplessness, fear, self-pity, shame, guilt, anger and resenment. There is no need to justify my actions because I'm out of control...I can't stop if I wanted to. I could even look in my mother's eyes at the end of my road... too ashamed. And when I did, all I could see was hurt and fear. Her pain caused me more pain and the only way to escape was to use again. Her fear caused me to run. I wanted to die but didn't have the balls to kill myself. I used to forget my pain and the pain I caused to others. In the end, I lost the ability to feel.

Many days and nights I would think, "Momma I'm so sorry. Momma I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. I'm sick and I just don't know what to do. If I could make things better...I would....but I can't!!"

It was only when the pain of living addicted became so great that I became willing to accept the help offered. It was only after I exhausted every attempt to control my addiction that I became willing to surrender. Through pain I became obedient and humbled. With almost 9 years clean, I realize that the scars caused by my self-centered actions and beliefs may never go away. Yet, I'm grateful that the wounds aren't open and are healing. As I recover, my family and friends recover too. I'm living proof (and many others) that recovery is possible and as long as the spark of life exists, there's hope.

Be blessed,
GarryW
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:36 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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WoW Garry W that was an amazing post. I am A pathologist so I understand physiology + neurology. I do comprehend the addicted brain, but not the mindset. Because of an addicted son, nephew in recovery dealing with the wreckage of his past, kids of friends addicted and teens that I work with abusing substances,it is of interest to me. Your post spells it out.
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Old 05-27-2007, 04:27 AM
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Quoted GarryW
It was only when the pain of living addicted became so great that I became willing to accept the help offered. It was only after I exhausted every attempt to control my addiction that I became willing to surrender. Through pain I became obedient and humbled. With almost 9 years clean, I realize that the scars caused by my self-centered actions and beliefs may never go away. Yet, I'm grateful that the wounds aren't open and are healing. As I recover, my family and friends recover too. I'm living proof (and many others) that recovery is possible and as long as the spark of life exists, there's hope.


ThanksGarry for being so honest. I am still waiting for my sister to reach this point. It has been 20 yrs for her. Did you ask for help or did someone come when you were ready?
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:33 AM
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Another "thanks" to you Gary W.; my AH (of almost 30 yrs) just divorced me becuase he is still not ready to stop drinking/controlling (he is still "functioning"). This helps me alot;thank you for sharing and I am happy for you and your family. I wish you continued success.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:30 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Did you ask for help or did someone come when you were ready?

I, too, was a "functioning addict" and didn't realize how bad I had become addicted until I was 38 years old. I knew I had to do something about my problem before it got any worse, so I volunteered to go to rehab (1985). I successfuly completed that 28 day program and "graduated" with honors (hehehe). Needless to say...I learned nothing while I was there except to blame my situation on my friends and that ONE drug. The "people, places and things" stuff, you know? Boy, did I have it confused. I got out and bought an expensive new car, jewelry and proceeded to become a "recovery evangelist" - preaching to anyone who would listen about how they should change their lives and become great like me.

It wasn't long before I was drinking again and hanging out in clubs. I managed to accomplish some personal goals (college graduate, home, money) while abstaining from old friends and the hard stuff, but I never addressed the "inside stuff" that recovery is all about. It took almost 9 years before I returned to my original drug of choice and once I did it, I knew I was in trouble. The first to notice my drastic change in personality was family members and co-workers. Because I had sought help before, I wasn't afraid to reach out again. So it was sort of a combination of others being concerned and fear of losing control that prompted me getting help.

I must say that it wasn't easy. Between 1994 and 1998, I went through 7 inpatient programs, 3 outpatient programs, the geographical change and losing the job I had worked on for 20 years. I did things I swore I'd never do and I experienced depths I never imagined. With each relapse, my addiction got worse and worse. I sold things from my home, I commited crimes, and I binged for weeks at a time. Had it not been for my dear mother, a dedicated counselor, and a very close friend...I'd probably be dead. They stuck by my side through it all because they knew I was sick.

Today, my mother is 79 years old. I almost cried when I wrote my original response to this thread because I haven't forgotten those days. She calls me her "hero" and I call her mine. My best friend and I are still very close and we can laugh about some of my past behaviors. I'll close by saying that help is all around us, we simply have to be willing to receive it. Recovery is for those who want it and we have to want it really, really bad.

TFLMS
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:33 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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GarryW,
Hope you don't mind, I printed your post to show to my bf, when the time is right,never know when or why he's going to blow up, he's like another person than the one I met.
thanks. ebv
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:58 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Spiritual Seeker, your post expresses the same concern and curiosity I have for my brother. It is great to be able to get some honest responses from those that have been down the road. I appreciate it too. Thanks to all of you.

I posted the following on another forum today, but think it may fit in here, and would like to know others responses--does it ring true, etc..?

Hi.

I'm new here. I've been trying to help my brother for years. He is addicted to alcohol. There is so much contradictory information about addiction, that it is hard for me to know how to best help. Here's what I believe is true:

1. Addicts use at any given time because they believe their experience while high is preferrable to the experience while not high. For some it is because they are normally depressed, agitated, sad, etc.. For others it is because they love the rush and excitement of the drug. For most, it is some combination. The reasons for use may change over time as their own brain chemistry changes, as well as their life circumstances.

2. Addicts will go to great lengths to protect and continue in their addiction because they strongly prefer using over not using.

3. Many things contribute to deciding to stop using, and they differ for different people. These things are the same in principle to why people stop any behavior, but in general they boil down to this: Pain or less pleasure from the drug itself, pain or less pleasure from the consequences of using. Many things can contribute to this, including suddenly finding better alternatives.

4. Craving is nothing more than the mind associating using with pleasure or relief from pain. Therefore, anything that changes one's thinking--whether that be a new environment certain drugs, new activities, new uses of the body (changes in sensations affects our thinking)--ie eating, sleep, exercise, etc.., or using techiques to think differently--affect the level of craving.

5. Denial, while often powerful, is simply human nature: We all deny or minimize the negative effects of things we enjoy or prefer.



I have less conviction on why one person becomes an addict--ie use becomes persistent and long term--and another doesn't, but I think any of the following factors may play a role:

1. Deep seated beliefs which produce unhappiness/pain, which the drugs relieve. For as long as the beliefs continue the drug maintains an allure. These beliefs are primarily about one's inability to achieve a state or condition in life they find critical to their happiness.

2. Chronic physical pain relieved by drugs.

3. The failure to find an alternative which is as effective, or the lack of faith that a better alternative exists.

4. Genetics may play a role in creating a state of mind which drugs help relieve



Based on the above, it seems to me that the best way to try and help my brother would be to openly discuss what the experience of drinking means to him--what he feels like when he drinks, what cravings are like for him, how his experience compares to alternatives, and how alcohol fits into his philosophy about what he believes makes a person happy, and to share my thoughts--which will differ from his--on these issues.


My questions here are:

1. Do my beliefs above seem accurate to you all?

2. How can I get my brother to open up more? Unfortunately, my brother would prefer to not discuss his drinking even though it seems to be the most important thing in his life. I think he has some guilt about it, and maybe some anger or resentment toward me since I've tried to talk him into quitting in the past.

Thanks,

ted
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:22 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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I see the pain in my mothers (and father's) eyes. I try to justify my drinking to them and hope they put up with me, and they DO! But it makes them sad, and I WANT more than anything to be rid of this disease, but it's so hard!!!!!!!!! not into drugs, but I'm an alcoholic. Well actually I cant lie, I do smoke the occasional joint, but thats not really my bag. I love beer and the feeling it gives me, and I say F*** it, and keep going back. Doesnt matter who I hurt. I wish you werent going through this pain, and I'll say a prayer for you Son to WANT to quit what he is doing to himself and to you. It's all up to him though babe. Please g to a support group, it will help you understand the way we think. Hugs
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:04 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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ebv, I don't mind you sharing what I wrote. One of the things we addicts in recovery strive for is to help other suffering addicts. If my words can help in any way, please feel free to use them.

Ted, I also have two brothers that are actively using. Neither willingly refers to themselves as addicts. Their addictions haven't taken them to the extremes my own did, and as long as they can remain functioning, they'll probably continue to use. I've exposed both to 12 step recovery and meetings and both see it as an unattractive and unneeded. In Narcotics Anonymous, we learn that we can only carry the message that recovery is possible to those who are willing to receive it. We also acknowledge that an addict that doesn't want to stop using will not stop using. They can be preached to, counseled, incarcerated, prayed over, beaten, analyzed, reasoned with and threatened...they will not stop until they are ready to. The best way to help a person seeking recovery is to be available for them when they become willing. The key is that they have to seek the help...not have it forced upon them.

I agree that there's almost unlimited information out there about addicts and addiction, but needs to be understood is that much of that information is misleading. Sadly, in these days, many treatment facilities, recovery programs and so-called chemical dependency professionals are in the business of making money and selling what they have to offer as bonafide. This could explain why much of the information conflicts with one another.

Although you're entitled to believe whatever you do, there are a few points you made that I'd like to add food for thought on:

1. Addicts use at any given time because they believe their experience while high is preferrable to the experience while not high. For some it is because they are normally depressed, agitated, sad, etc.. For others it is because they love the rush and excitement of the drug. For most, it is some combination. The reasons for use may change over time as their own brain chemistry changes, as well as their life circumstances.
There is a major difference between a user, an abuser and an addict. Users and abusers have choice and preference, addicts don't. Once one becomes addicted to a substance, using said substance isn't optional...it's required. An addict who is in active addiction needs no logic, reason or belief to use. The disease of addiction is made up of 3 components (or factors): obsession, compulsion & total self-centeredness. Obsession is the mental preoccupation, or "fixed idea" of getting and using. Some even refer to it as a mental disease. Compulsion is the inability to stop using once one has started. And total self-centeredness piece is lacking the ability to see anything other than what is desired. In NA, self-centeredness is referred to as the spiritual aspect because we lose the ability to feel (for ourselves or others).

2. Addicts will go to great lengths to protect and continue in their addiction because they strongly prefer using over not using.
Once again, it was my experience to not have a choice or preference by the time I became addicted. Many recovering addicts will testify that they continued to use while having an overwhelming "preference" to NOT use. What I stress here is that loss of control is uniformly common amongst addicts, and although we may have gone to great lengths to keep protected and facilitate our using, the reasoning generally isn't about choice or preference. We used to live and lived to use, and were totally unmanageable.

3. Many things contribute to deciding to stop using, and they differ for different people. These things are the same in principle to why people stop any behavior, but in general they boil down to this: Pain or less pleasure from the drug itself, pain or less pleasure from the consequences of using. Many things can contribute to this, including suddenly finding better alternatives.
I'm not sure how you're asserting that drugs cause pain. Withdrawal from drugs can cause pain, I understand that fully well. Receiving less pleasure only results in using a higher dosage or combining drugs to achieve a desired effect. I'm also unsure how consequences can provide pleasure of any kind, let alone "less pleasure." Acquiring a desire to stop using generally requires an addict to experience what is called a "bottom." This can differ from addict to addict and sometimes it can be something as simple as the loss of a job or relationship. The degree of sickness varies from addict to addict and often it runs parallel with their drug of choice or the extremes to which their addiction has taken them. Withdrawal for a crack addict or pothead isn't the same as for an alcoholic or heroin addict.

4. Craving is nothing more than the mind associating using with pleasure or relief from pain. Therefore, anything that changes one's thinking--whether that be a new environment certain drugs, new activities, new uses of the body (changes in sensations affects our thinking)--ie eating, sleep, exercise, etc.., or using techiques to think differently--affect the level of craving.
The same applies here: cravings depend on the addict and their drug of choice. So we're in agreement except about the environment part because cravings can go far beyond being solely a mental thing...they can have physical aspects as well.

How can I get my brother to open up more? Unfortunately, my brother would prefer to not discuss his drinking even though it seems to be the most important thing in his life. I think he has some guilt about it, and maybe some anger or resentment toward me since I've tried to talk him into quitting in the past.
My opinion is that you cannot get him to open up. If he wanted to discuss his addiction with you, he would. Your conclusions about why he doesn't may be on point, but on the other hand - he may just not be ready and nothing you can do can make him ready. I feel the best you can do is ensure that he knows that you love him and will be there for him when he decides to open up. He'll remember and appreciate it when the time comes.

tflms
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:27 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Excellent + helpful dialogue...Please keep it going
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Old 05-27-2007, 07:02 PM
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Hi, I don't have the energy to do all the quote stuff I would like to so I hope this makes some sense.



1. Addicts use at any given time because they believe their experience while high is preferrable to the experience while not high. For some it is because they are normally depressed, agitated, sad, etc.. For others it is because they love the rush and excitement of the drug. For most, it is some combination. The reasons for use may change over time as their own brain chemistry changes, as well as their life circumstances.

OK, here goes. There was a time when I enjoyed drinking, a long long time ago. I suppose I drank from 15 or so until I was probably about 22 before I started to have the tiny inkling that I might have a little problem with my alcohol intake. By the time I began to realize that there might be a problem, I was already hooked (and had been for some time and didn’t even know it).

I don’t really remember a rush or excitement. I don’t think I was any more or less depressed, agitated or sad than anyone else around me. I drank because it made me feel good. Good, wonderful, whole, human. How did it make me feel? Impossible to describe the taste of milk to someone who has never tasted it.

I could be a bit crude and ask you to give up having bowel movements for a while. Or hey, I think that your major problem is fluids. Stop drinking fluids you ninny! No water, no juice, no nothing. What’s wrong with you anyway?! The next time you have an intestinal bug try to control your diarrhea with willpower.

Try to imagine if you can how it might feel to breathe oxygen for the first time.

Oh God, how I tried to stop. You can never know how much I tried. It is quite impossible for you to understand how much willpower an alcoholic or addict exerts trying to control their disease. We try and try and try, we hurt those who love us and can’t stop, we hate ourselves because we can’t stop.


2. Addicts will go to great lengths to protect and continue in their addiction because they strongly prefer using over not using.

Preference has absolutely nothing to do with it.

3. Many things contribute to deciding to stop using, and they differ for different people. These things are the same in principle to why people stop any behavior, but in general they boil down to this: Pain or less pleasure from the drug itself, pain or less pleasure from the consequences of using. Many things can contribute to this, including suddenly finding better alternatives.

Got Married, didn’t stop. Got divorced, didn’t stop. Got DWI, didn’t stop. Nearly got kicked out of military, didn’t stop. Failed at college, didn’t stop. Got another DWI, didn’t stop. Went to jail, didn’t stop. I could go on and it did get worse…

4. Craving is nothing more than the mind associating using with pleasure or relief from pain. Therefore, anything that changes one's thinking--whether that be a new environment certain drugs, new activities, new uses of the body (changes in sensations affects our thinking)--ie eating, sleep, exercise, etc.., or using techiques to think differently--affect the level of craving.

The only time I did not drink or think about drinking was when I was asleep.

5. Denial, while often powerful, is simply human nature: We all deny or minimize the negative effects of things we enjoy or prefer.

I think I addressed this. For a long time I didn’t know I was addicted, and when I became aware of at times I couldn’t face it because not-drinking was not an option.

I have less conviction on why one person becomes an addict--ie use becomes persistent and long term--and another doesn't, but I think any of the following factors may play a role:

1. Deep seated beliefs which produce unhappiness/pain, which the drugs relieve. For as long as the beliefs continue the drug maintains an allure. These beliefs are primarily about one's inability to achieve a state or condition in life they find critical to their happiness.

People from all walks of life, all socio-economic strata’s of society, the rich, the poor, the happy, the sad. Come on, the above is naïve.

2. Chronic physical pain relieved by drugs.

I do believe that someone who uses strong drugs for pain relief is susceptible to addiction. However, there are many, many people who use strong drugs as prescribed and do not become addicted.

3. The failure to find an alternative which is as effective, or the lack of faith that a better alternative exists.

Once I was addicted there was no alternative.

4. Genetics may play a role in creating a state of mind which drugs help relieve

I believe genetics are the underlying cause of most if not all alcoholism but certainly not because the genetics create a particular state of mind. My liver does not process alcohol the same way your liver does. This is proven scientific fact. (assuming you are not an alcoholic).


Based on the above, it seems to me that the best way to try and help my brother would be to openly discuss what the experience of drinking means to him--what he feels like when he drinks, what cravings are like for him, how his experience compares to alternatives, and how alcohol fits into his philosophy about what he believes makes a person happy, and to share my thoughts--which will differ from his--on these issues.

The wonderful, wonderful woman in my life always wanted to know why. WHY did you start drinking again? WHY? PLEASE just tell me WHY?

I truly did not know. I had no idea whatsoever. None.

I hated that question more than anything in the world.

My questions here are:

2. How can I get my brother to open up more? Unfortunately, my brother would prefer to not discuss his drinking even though it seems to be the most important thing in his life. I think he has some guilt about it, and maybe some anger or resentment toward me since I've tried to talk him into quitting in the past.

I can tell from your words that you love your brother deeply. Replying to this thread and especially to your post is painful for me. I am reaching deep inside and poking at some slimy crap that I don’t even want to acknowledge is there. Just writing this to you is slightly awakening the beast within and remembering what it is like to breathe oxygen causes my body to want more. Yes, right now I can feel the craving. I won’t give in today though. I’ll be OK.

This whole forum of SR is really opening my eyes to the pain and suffering of those who love us.

And there is pain…..

Ted
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Old 05-27-2007, 07:30 PM
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My experience was a bit different. I was a wife to an alcoholic before I was one myself. I grew up with an alcholic uncle and saw the hell he put the family through and swore to myself that I wouldn't be like that. And for a long time I wasn't. I used food to medicate myself, stuff down the unpleasant stuff I didn't want to deal with. I had an aversion to being out of control so getting drunk wasn't my thing. I did get sh*tfaced for the first time on my 22nd birthday. I puked all over myself, blacked out covered in puke and puking again. Had my first hangover and swore never again. Worked for 13 years. I would have a very occassional drink and the very second I felt it hit that was it, no more. I would instantly relive my birthday and any desire to continue that drink would leave.

At the age of 35 I had gastric bypass surgery. My DOC, food was no longer an option. I was living in a marriage from hell to an alcoholic and beating my head against the wall trying to make him stop. Threatened, cried, begged, pleaded, sulked, silent treatment, you name it I tried it. In about November or December of 2000 I had my first drink post-surgery. It hit me like a ton of bricks (due to the mechanics of the surgery) and almost as quickly I was stone sober again. I thought "how cool is that?" and proceeded to continue to play around with it. Getting tipsy helped me deal with him better, it medicated all the stuff that I had tried to stuff with food and did it much better. My tolerance built and within time I was outdrinking him and getting greedy with the liquor and sneaky. As soon as he'd pass out I'd run and grab more til I passed out. I always had insomnia problems and this happened to knock me out. It got to where I thought I couldn't sleep without it, then the glasses got taller, the drinks stronger and bedtime earlier. It was sneaky and I didn't think I had a problem (honestly!) The marriage ended and I moved back to Texas along with my half pint to a pint of whiskey habit at bedtime. I'll go ahead and cut to the chase. My drinking start to finish was about 3.5 years. At the end I was so physically dependent (addicted) to alcohol that I had shakes daily, had to drink every few hours (even while working) to control the shakes. Weekends were spent passed out. Stupid choices in men were made. My teenagers were neglected and my mother was stuck trying to mother my children and kick my *ss to make me realize what I was doing to myself and everyone around me.

I became sneakier with the drinking and intensely ashamed. By this time I realized I was addicted and I was in hell. To relieve the withdrawals made it all go away but it also isolated me or caused me to do horrible things like drive my kids while drunk. The shame was intense but so was the addiction and the fear of the withdrawals. I became totally consumed with keeping the shakes at bay and resorted to having bottles in my purse, under the bed, wherever I could. I couldn't look myself in the eye. I tried everything I could think of to control my drinking, changing what I drank, trying to hold off as long as possible, promising myself every morning that I would not drink today only to find myself driving like a bat out of hell at lunch to get a gulp to stop the puking and shakes and then hitting different stores in the evening so the clerks wouldn't guess the severity of my problem.

It was after a 3 day drunk on the 4th of July of 2004 and a one person intervention in the person of my mom that got me at just the right mixture of shame, hopelessness and fear. My kidneys were shutting down and I was in danger of dying but still couldn't get past the fear of withdrawals. While I wanted to hide from life I didn't want to die. She got me to go to a meeting that night. I walked into my now home group a shaking, puking, crying, yellow skinned mess. My mom sat beside me. It still took another month to totally stop drinking but those people in those rooms kept telling my story and got my attention. They gave me hope. My mom gave me support.

Today I am coming close to 3 years sober (God willing and one day at a time) and I credit my mom with saving my life. She is proud of me and I am so thankful for her. I never did any of the drinking sneaking lying to deliberately hurt them and the knowledge that it hurt them anyway was horrible and one more thing I sought to drown out of consciousness.

I was not a bad person. I am not a bad person. I was enslaved by addiction and know many more who are or were the same way. On the one hand I wanted free more than anything else in the world and on the other I was terrified of withdrawals and dealing with the mess that had become my life. Truly it had to get where the pain of continuing to drink was worse than the fear of quitting.

Hugs,
Kellye
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:51 PM
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This is a really good thread. it should go on "the best of SR." Really.
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:24 PM
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GarryW,

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it. I see things differently than you, but am more than willing to reconsider my own beliefs because in order to understand my brother I need to know what is true, and not what I think is true. You have been through addiction so your experience far outweighs my own thinking. In order to better understand what you have written I’d like to respond..


Originally Posted by GaryW
We also acknowledge that an addict that doesn't want to stop using will not stop using. They can be preached to, counseled, incarcerated, prayed over, beaten, analyzed, reasoned with and threatened...they will not stop until they are ready to. The best way to help a person seeking recovery is to be available for them when they become willing. The key is that they have to seek the help...not have it forced upon them.
That makes sense to me. However, I’ve read that many addicts decide to quit after a simple intervention by a doctor. So I hang on to the belief that maybe I’ll say something that someday will be helpful to my brother to maybe speed up the process for him to decide he is ready. He must be ready, but it seems to me that the decision to quit is a rational one based on the cost vs. the benefit and it seems that loving discussions might help tip the balance toward making the costs of quitting less and the benefits greater.


Originally Posted by GaryW
There is a major difference between a user, an abuser and an addict. Users and abusers have choice and preference, addicts don't. Once one becomes addicted to a substance, using said substance isn't optional...it's required. An addict who is in active addiction needs no logic, reason or belief to use. The disease of addiction is made up of 3 components (or factors): obsession, compulsion & total self-centeredness. Obsession is the mental preoccupation, or "fixed idea" of getting and using. Some even refer to it as a mental disease. Compulsion is the inability to stop using once one has started. And total self-centeredness piece is lacking the ability to see anything other than what is desired. In NA, self-centeredness is referred to as the spiritual aspect because we lose the ability to feel (for ourselves or others).
While I believe that the 3 components are major, I have a hard time accepting that once a person is addicted choice disappears, for two reasons. First, many addicts do make a choice to stop using when they get clean. If they had no ability to stop then that couldn’t happen. Second, according to the book Heavy Drinking research has shown that even the most severe alcoholics will choose to either not drink at all or to stop drinking after the first drink IF enough incentives are offered. That is true even if they are suffering withdrawal symptoms. So, it appears to me that the 3 factors make the addiction APPEAR to be out of control and make the exercise of choice VERY difficult, but they don’t actually result in a complete inability to stop using. For these reasons it seems to me that the differences between a user, an abuser, and an addict are primary ones of the DEGREE to which choice is made more difficult because the strength of the 3 factors you mention becomes greater over time.

I'm not sure how you're asserting that drugs cause pain. Withdrawal from drugs can cause pain, I understand that fully well. Receiving less pleasure only results in using a higher dosage or combining drugs to achieve a desired effect. I'm also unsure how consequences can provide pleasure of any kind, let alone "less pleasure." Acquiring a desire to stop using generally requires an addict to experience what is called a "bottom." This can differ from addict to addict and sometimes it can be something as simple as the loss of a job or relationship….
I can’t think of examples of drugs causing pain (except maybe overdose or sickness), but I’ve heard that the pleasure from using can decrease as the addiction gets worse, and the positive consequences from using (the rush, the inhibition, the sexual excitement, etc..) can be increasingly balanced out with the negative consequences--all the losses that come with it-like a job or relationship, which you mention. It seems to me that quitting is a choice that depends on these kinds of factors. The flipside to me is that using is therefore a choice that depends on the same kinds of factors--which can be many things.

My original
4. Craving is nothing more than the mind associating using with pleasure or relief from pain. Therefore, anything that changes one's thinking--whether that be a new environment certain drugs, new activities, new uses of the body (changes in sensations affects our thinking)--ie eating, sleep, exercise, etc.., or using techiques to think differently--affect the level of craving.
Your response:
The same applies here: cravings depend on the addict and their drug of choice. So we're in agreement except about the environment part because cravings can go far beyond being solely a mental thing...they can have physical aspects as well.
I think we may be saying the same thing, but ultimately the physical factors which affect craving, only work when one’s brain is involved in some way. For example, we can say that an advertisement for Budweiser triggers a strong craving, so the environment is critical. However, the advertisement only triggers cravings when a person sees it and thinks about it--even if the thought is very fleeting, and the same advertisement may affect a person differently under different circumstances.


My opinion is that you cannot get him to open up. If he wanted to discuss his addiction with you, he would. Your conclusions about why he doesn't may be on point, but on the other hand - he may just not be ready and nothing you can do can make him ready. I feel the best you can do is ensure that he knows that you love him and will be there for him when he decides to open up. He'll remember and appreciate it when the time comes.
Thank you Gary. Please don’t see my response as intending to be argumentative. I just want to get to the truth. Thanks again,

ted
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:46 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Spritual Seeker View Post
I don't know how it is to be an addict. What thoughts do you have about yourself when you know you are one.
I'm an alcoholic. I've used other drugs compulsively also, and it was a problem when I ran out. But I grew away from them. Alcohol is definitely my drug of choice. I've been drinking alcoholically for almost ten years now. And it only gets worse.

In answer to your question SS, these are my thoughts about myself when I'm in the middle of a drinking binge(which, let's face it, is 95% of the time)
- A big part of me doesn't give a sh*t about myself
- A big part of me feels guilty that I may have been a bad experience for other people, friends, ex-boyfriends, ex-friends, ex work colleagues, etc
- A part of me would really like to quit. Some part of my psychology makes it difficult to volunteer for help. Admitting to family would mean that I'm dumping my stuff on them. They would like me to admit it, but I don't want to be a burden. If I was ever to quit, it would be better for me to talk with complete strangers, preferably
recovered alcoholics. I firmly believe that unless a person has been there and lived through it, they don't know what they're talking about.
- I regret the wasted time, money etc.
- I am afraid of the future(when hungover to the point of not being physically able to drink) usually when it occurs to me that if my parents became ill I would be helpless...
- I know that I am better than this.
- I blame the past.
- I get annoyed with myself for blaming the past. I blame myself.

Originally Posted by Spritual Seeker View Post
What do you tell yourself to justify your actions.
So many things. :-/
I am naturally quite a logical person. Couple that with a vivid imagination.
When in a job I used every excuse and rationale under the sun for not showing up till lunch time, or not showing up at all for a day or several days, to the point that it became ridiculous. (I haven't worked in five months now. But that's a whole other story..)
In the end you don't care what people think. It almost becomes a game. You know that people are going to talk, but you don't care.
I guess I'm kinda like that anyway, personality-wise - I don't care really if people don't like me etc.
My alcoholism feeds off that aspect of myself.
And it feeds off the other traits that I naturally have, such as procrastination, rebelliousness etc etc.
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:48 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Thank you Keelye D for sharing your experience. You mentioned the benefits which fueled your early use--you had a different--kind of fun experience at age 35 which seemed to replace in your mind the bad experience you had when you were 22. It was easier to deal with your relationship, it eased psychological pain, and it helped your insomnia. Over time you became physically dependant. At that point you drank to avoid withdrawal symptoms, which you feared. Your fear appears to have become an obsession--to avoid the shakes and puking. Thank God for your mom and her help. As you put it"..my mom that got me at just the right mixture of shame, hopelessness and fear. My kidneys were shutting down and I was in danger of dying but still couldn't get past the fear of withdrawals." and "those people in those rooms kept telling my story and got my attention. They gave me hope. My mom gave me support."

You closed by saying "Truly it had to get where the pain of continuing to drink was worse than the fear of quitting. "

I'm curious about your fear of quitting. Did you know that you could quit but just couldn't stand to think of doing it? Or, did you not know if you would survive detox?

Hope and support are so important. They helped you overcome your fears. I'm curious as to why you didn't have hope to overcome your fears earlier on. Did you feel like no one--not even others in support groups--cared? Or, that their concern wouldn't be enough?

Your story gives me hope that love and concern can help one decide to quit. I'm glad you found faith in others and in yourself. take care,

ted
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:53 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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This is a really good thread. It really should go on "the best of SR." posted I AM tj
Please chime in because it is meaningful.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:04 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Grouchothecat,

Thank you for your reply. Please bear with me as I try to understand your experience better. At the end of your reply you wrote:

I can tell from your words that you love your brother deeply. Replying to this thread and especially to your post is painful for me. I am reaching deep inside and poking at some slimy crap that I don’t even want to acknowledge is there. Just writing this to you is slightly awakening the beast within and remembering what it is like to breathe oxygen causes my body to want more. Yes, right now I can feel the craving. I won’t give in today though. I’ll be OK.

This whole forum of SR is really opening my eyes to the pain and suffering of those who love us.

And there is pain…..
The last thing I want to do is cause you or anyone else pain. I believe, perhaps naively, that the truth can set us all free, because only by knowing the truth can we be effective in living our lives in ways that work..to produce happiness. That doesn’t mean liking the bad stuff, but acknowledging that it exists and that it is to be guarded against in order to get the good stuff. At least, that’s what makes sense to me.




I don’t really remember a rush or excitement. I don’t think I was any more or less depressed, agitated or sad than anyone else around me. I drank because it made me feel good. Good, wonderful, whole, human. How did it make me feel? Impossible to describe the taste of milk to someone who has never tasted it.
I wish I understood. Did it give you energy? Did you talk faster, think quicker? Did it make you feel powerful? More sexual? Smarter? Less shy? Etc.? My impression is that most people may not feel wonderful most of the time, but they do feel whole and human, so I’d like to know what you mean to imply that you didn’t feel whole or human when you didn’t drink. If you prefer to not answer any of this, please know that I understand and respect your privacy.

I could be a bit crude and ask you to give up having bowel movements for a while. Or hey, I think that your major problem is fluids. Stop drinking fluids you ninny! No water, no juice, no nothing. What’s wrong with you anyway?! The next time you have an intestinal bug try to control your diarrhea with willpower.

Try to imagine if you can how it might feel to breathe oxygen for the first time.
Sounds like sobriety at this point was awful. Was this feeling of involuntary craving or need present from the beginning? Or only after you had been drinking for some time?


Oh God, how I tried to stop. You can never know how much I tried. It is quite impossible for you to understand how much willpower an alcoholic or addict exerts trying to control their disease. We try and try and try, we hurt those who love us and can’t stop, we hate ourselves because we can’t stop.
I believe you tried. Your pain comes through. Did you always try on your own or did you allow others to help? Was there are belief that no one else could help you? How did you feel about so-called ‘experts’ in addiction treatment? How did you feel about others who had successfully overcome their addiction? I ask this because I have the mindset that others CAN understand and CAN help and that I was born into this world as ignorant as everyone else, and while I’ve learned some things, I know that others are out there who know a lot me than I do. That’s why I’m curious when I hear others talk about trying to fight very difficult demons all on their own..


Got Married, didn’t stop. Got divorced, didn’t stop. Got DWI, didn’t stop. Nearly got kicked out of military, didn’t stop. Failed at college, didn’t stop. Got another DWI, didn’t stop. Went to jail, didn’t stop. I could go on and it did get worse…
But, something made you stop, right? What was it, and why do you think it is successful for you?


The only time I did not drink or think about drinking was when I was asleep.
Have you found successful strategies to reduce or stop cravings since becoming sober? If so, what have you found that works well for you?




Originally Posted by me--thoughts on why addiction occurs
1. Deep seated beliefs which produce unhappiness/pain, which the drugs relieve. For as long as the beliefs continue the drug maintains an allure. These beliefs are primarily about one's inability to achieve a state or condition in life they find critical to their happiness.
People from all walks of life, all socio-economic strata’s of society, the rich, the poor, the happy, the sad. Come on, the above is naïve.
I am naïve. You are right. And I’ve read that alcoholism doesn’t discriminate, but I’ve also read that a greater pctg of alcoholics come from the lower class than upper class, and have pre-existing depression, so it seems that environment and psychological factors may have an important role for some people.. I’ve also read that people with friends, intimate relationships, families, stable home and community lives, with jobs and work skills, with education, and who are healthy do not become addicted at the same rate as those without these things in their lives. My take is that all of those things are components of what makes us happy--they are the deeper parts of what fulfills us as they go way beyond a ‘do whatever feels good’ philosophy.


I believe genetics are the underlying cause of most if not all alcoholism but certainly not because the genetics create a particular state of mind. My liver does not process alcohol the same way your liver does. This is proven scientific fact. (assuming you are not an alcoholic).
If a person’s metabolism enables them to drink larger amounts with less negative effects, that would be a positive reinforcer. Why do you not think the genetic differences in our brains could account for how one person experiences drugs differently than another? To date though, genetics have been shown to be linked in a minority pctg of alcoholics..80% of sons who have alcoholic parents are not alcoholics themselves.




The wonderful, wonderful woman in my life always wanted to know why. WHY did you start drinking again? WHY? PLEASE just tell me WHY?

I truly did not know. I had no idea whatsoever. None.

I hated that question more than anything in the world.
I’m sorry. I was raised to believe that our actions are done for reasons, even if we don’t consciously know what those reasons are. Maybe no one really knows. My brother says he drinks because he feels more calm when he drinks…but I know there has to be more to it than that. Maybe he doesn’t know either. I don’t….but it seems that if one knows why they behave a certain way they have a better chance of not repeating it. It’s not a requirement though--as long as a person knows they are better off without it, that should be enough. I’m just thinking out loud a bit here..

Thanks again for your reply. I really want to understand and am grateful to you for writing.

ted
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:54 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=GarryW;1348431] I did things I swore I'd never do and I experienced depths I never imagined. With each relapse, my addiction got worse and worse. I sold things from my home, I commited crimes, and I binged for weeks at a time. Had it not been for my dear mother, a dedicated counselor, and a very close friend...I'd probably be dead. They stuck by my side through it all because they knew I was sick.

I am not sure what a functioning addict is but my sister is 39 (20 yrs drunk) last 3 the worst. I have been there for her but have basically left her to herself now because it was affecting my life way too much.
Anyhow on this forum many have said leave her alone, accept what she is....
I love her, so much would love to see her well again and living a great life but I know she has to want it. Now,,,,, though... do I just wait for her to contact me if she needs help etc etc.
I finally got hold of her today and she said she wanted to die...it was too hard for her with the meds, relapses, withdrawal..
She wants me to call her tonight..
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