AA outsider agonizing over some questions...
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Highlands, TX
Posts: 1,192
If you are isolated and looking for friendship AND you have a desire to not drink then by all means go to AA. Go to meetings, listen to the stories, get to know people and let them get to know you. Don't dazzle them with BS or try to make them cry with stories, just go and be yourself IF you want to stay sober and perhaps make friends.
As for the job thing, I agree with the others. Get whatever job you can right now even if you feel it is beneath you. Something is better than nothing and it is always easier to find a job when you have a job.
In the meantime, if you have continued to go to AA meeting and developed some friendships then later on you can put the word out that you're looking for a job in such and such a field.
I know that in my group there are plenty that walk in off the street looking for a handout, looking for someone to chauffer them around, borrow money, and will sit there with a tear in their eye telling you how awful their life is. If they get what they want they disappear til next time. If they don't get what they want they disappear.
What is impressive (at least to me) is someone who comes in, makes lots of meetings, gets a sponsor, works their *ss off whether it is step work, service work for the group, whatever but shows a real hunger for AA and the life they see in others. Those people stick with the winners and before you know it their circumstances are better, the light comes back on in their eyes, and yes, they usually end up being employable. It is a true joy to behold but alas, at least in our area it appears to be the exception more than the rule.
Anyways, I think you have a clear sense of right and wrong but I think you raised two different issues that have two different answers. No, I wouldn't walk in off the street and ask about a job but I would walk in off the street and seek kinship with others of my kind. The rest will happen, or not, as it should.
Hugs no matter what you decide to do!
Kellye
As for the job thing, I agree with the others. Get whatever job you can right now even if you feel it is beneath you. Something is better than nothing and it is always easier to find a job when you have a job.
In the meantime, if you have continued to go to AA meeting and developed some friendships then later on you can put the word out that you're looking for a job in such and such a field.
I know that in my group there are plenty that walk in off the street looking for a handout, looking for someone to chauffer them around, borrow money, and will sit there with a tear in their eye telling you how awful their life is. If they get what they want they disappear til next time. If they don't get what they want they disappear.
What is impressive (at least to me) is someone who comes in, makes lots of meetings, gets a sponsor, works their *ss off whether it is step work, service work for the group, whatever but shows a real hunger for AA and the life they see in others. Those people stick with the winners and before you know it their circumstances are better, the light comes back on in their eyes, and yes, they usually end up being employable. It is a true joy to behold but alas, at least in our area it appears to be the exception more than the rule.
Anyways, I think you have a clear sense of right and wrong but I think you raised two different issues that have two different answers. No, I wouldn't walk in off the street and ask about a job but I would walk in off the street and seek kinship with others of my kind. The rest will happen, or not, as it should.
Hugs no matter what you decide to do!
Kellye
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
is someone who comes in, makes lots of meetings, gets a sponsor, works their *ss off whether it is step work, service work for the group, whatever but shows a real hunger for AA and the life they see in others. Those people stick with the winners and before you know it their circumstances are better, the light comes back on in their eyes, and yes, they usually end up being employable. It is a true joy to behold but alas, at least in our area it appears to be the exception more than the rule.
Try explaining to a potential employer why, after 5 years as an IT Manager, you're not working, and haven't for the last 6 months. While STILL being rigorously honest !
I kept my nose to the grind wheel, and followed instructions. I am currently working for a HUGE pharmaceutical company as a programmer/analyst. This is with an old DUI and a recent drunk in public disclosed to the employer. Seek God, he'll cut you a break eventually. Until then, work at Taco Bell or whatever you can get. I took a job for $10.00/hr to make rent one month....
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Posts: 889
Don't know about getting a job, had one for a long time. Guess I'm lucky. Scratch that, I KNOW I'm lucky!
At any rate, I know about relapse. Had a few of them before. Never saw them coming till I was almost on the way to the liquor store. For a dispassionate observer, the signs were there. They were/are: no stepwork, no meetings, no involvement, no sponsor. I thought everything was fine though. Didn't think things were so fine that last first year of sobriety though, everything that mattered seemed to be falling apart! Had a sponsor, don't know whether he was an AA bully or not. I'd see him, tell him about my desparate and seemingly intractable problems, and he'd reply "So what are you doing about the step you're on?". I most assuredly considered him an (SoberRecovery.com unapproved anatomical reference), and sometimes I still think he is, and i'm probably right. But that (SoberRecovery.com unapproved anatomical reference) and his caustic advice and guidance helped saved my life. After a while, everything did work out, or at least so it was more tolerable. I also got some step work done, and more importantly made the "do step work=feel better despite circumstances" connection. Sometimes I don't know what to worry about!
Reminds me of a guy I met not too long ago. No job, no apartment, has a broke down car but no place to stay. Brilliant conversationalist, loves to talk. Dry longer than a week, but short of a month. Friend of mine is/was working with him. "Where is your step work? Done your reading? Where's your big book?" "None, no, at GF's house." Now I'm no swami, but I'd guess this guy has a drink or 2 in his near future. Confusing having so many problems, sometimes one takes solace where one can find it. I'll bet half the people on this board think they know him. If I want what they have, I must do what they do.
At any rate, I know about relapse. Had a few of them before. Never saw them coming till I was almost on the way to the liquor store. For a dispassionate observer, the signs were there. They were/are: no stepwork, no meetings, no involvement, no sponsor. I thought everything was fine though. Didn't think things were so fine that last first year of sobriety though, everything that mattered seemed to be falling apart! Had a sponsor, don't know whether he was an AA bully or not. I'd see him, tell him about my desparate and seemingly intractable problems, and he'd reply "So what are you doing about the step you're on?". I most assuredly considered him an (SoberRecovery.com unapproved anatomical reference), and sometimes I still think he is, and i'm probably right. But that (SoberRecovery.com unapproved anatomical reference) and his caustic advice and guidance helped saved my life. After a while, everything did work out, or at least so it was more tolerable. I also got some step work done, and more importantly made the "do step work=feel better despite circumstances" connection. Sometimes I don't know what to worry about!
Reminds me of a guy I met not too long ago. No job, no apartment, has a broke down car but no place to stay. Brilliant conversationalist, loves to talk. Dry longer than a week, but short of a month. Friend of mine is/was working with him. "Where is your step work? Done your reading? Where's your big book?" "None, no, at GF's house." Now I'm no swami, but I'd guess this guy has a drink or 2 in his near future. Confusing having so many problems, sometimes one takes solace where one can find it. I'll bet half the people on this board think they know him. If I want what they have, I must do what they do.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 239
hey there... a.a. is a fellowship... people go there to be around other people who are struggling for the support and wisdom, and friendships DO form, and it is mostly a healthy, good thing. esp. for those of us "loners" (i'm one!) who are used to isolating ourselves. it may take some getting used to, but if you keep going to the meetings, you won't always feel like an outsider, and the other things will fall into place. its not magic, it takes effort, but its really o.k. to seek out the fellowship of others.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
I think something like 70% embellish their resumes. What's the big deal if you tell a "little white lie" or 2?? If you tell them that you were out of work because of alcohol/drug problems, you will get passed over. That's the thing w/ you people who seem to love the idea of being alcoholic, the majority of people hate us!! I have been treated like garbage in hospital ER rooms because of severe intoxication. They say that only 10% of drinkers are alcoholic and many still consider it a moral problem.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
tiburon there is a huge difference in embellishing a resume:
"I have trained new hires in the art of belly button licking"
If you had a new hire or 2 watch you lick belly buttons thier first day, this would be an embellishment because your job was not to train them, thier boss told them to watch you lick belly buttons.
And lying on a resume:
"I was in charge of developing the training program for all new hires and actually training them in the art of belly button licking."
When in reality all you did was lick belly buttons while new hires watched.
I have participated in the firing of more then one person for lying on thier resume and I will not lie when some one calls for a reference, especially when it is a liar we just canned.
All one has to do is put down they were out of work fro personal medical problems. Oh yes the truth the truth will set you free.
Liars stay drunk has been my experience, that is one thing I was really good at when I was drinking, being a liar!!! I kept drinking right up until I started to be honest with myself and every one around me.
I do not want to drink again, as a result I will not start lying again, I like being able to look people in the eye when I talk to them, not at their shoes.
"I have trained new hires in the art of belly button licking"
If you had a new hire or 2 watch you lick belly buttons thier first day, this would be an embellishment because your job was not to train them, thier boss told them to watch you lick belly buttons.
And lying on a resume:
"I was in charge of developing the training program for all new hires and actually training them in the art of belly button licking."
When in reality all you did was lick belly buttons while new hires watched.
I have participated in the firing of more then one person for lying on thier resume and I will not lie when some one calls for a reference, especially when it is a liar we just canned.
All one has to do is put down they were out of work fro personal medical problems. Oh yes the truth the truth will set you free.
Liars stay drunk has been my experience, that is one thing I was really good at when I was drinking, being a liar!!! I kept drinking right up until I started to be honest with myself and every one around me.
I do not want to drink again, as a result I will not start lying again, I like being able to look people in the eye when I talk to them, not at their shoes.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by tiburon88 
I think something like 70% embellish their resumes.
Allow me to talk about the resumes, then - so far NO ONE EVER replied to ANY of my broadcast letters, cold queries, job applications. Whenever I give my resume to anyone (in a bar, at a job fair, yesterday in One-Stop Career Center) they are impressed - "this is (one of) the best resumes I have ever seen" is a common reaction. I speak few languages, have several diplomas, have been successful etc., BUT, and this is the beauty, my resume belongs to the "top: everyone is telling me (I do not even know what that means) but "the top" does not need me.
I've been working in Rio de Janeiro, Tokyo, Zagreb, NYC, Montreal, so what's wrong with this guy? You do not have a healthy man 47 y.o., penniless and homeless, out of work. And I am all of that. Nothing nice to wear left. Btw, my financial circumstances have nothing to do with me being an alcoholic, all I have had in my life had been stolen from me in Brazil (and I was even sober for a year or so, then...) so what can I do, ces't la vie, things happen. At least this country is great, you always have a second chance. So far not me, but still it is cute to believe.
So now, today, I am waiting for SIBL to open (Science, Industry, Business Library in NYC) and will forge my resume. I am a big guy with a wide, stupid face, I speak English worse than I write, and even more so I speak it with a heavy accent i.e. from today I will be an illiterate, moronic immigrant, with a high-school diploma on my resume, maybe not even finished high-school diploma and will look for any frigging job.
Because all this is getting bizarre. I am sitting in that office (One-Stop Career) and that "career councilor" had no idea what are all those things in a resume mean. "We never have people like you here", she said. Good, I wish I had a penny for every time I heard that... so I told her that I need a job NOW, that I am HUNGRY, that I did not receive a SINGLE reply on so far more than 200 job applications and that I do not care about my profession and that I would like to work in parks, cleaning the parks, anything.
"Really?" - yes, really (and I mean it). $8.50 per an hour. FANTASTIC, that's me. Are you sure? This is not for you. OF COURSE I am SURE, I have $0.08 in my pocket, so with that salary I'd be a king of the world, able to invest in stock market options and make a fortune all over again. "What are stock markets options?" she asked. She's a nice lady and I ended up telling her that Alcan's June 70 calls went up more than 7,000% in one day (yesterday) and that such things happen all the time and that I know how this thing works even though I do not have a financial degree.
She did not believe me and turned the screen to me and handed me a keyboard. "Show me!", so I went to a few financial sites and started showing her. In less than a five minutes I had 15 people, all employees of that One-Stop Career Center over my head, asking questions, giving suggestions, etc. "Mad Money" live with me instead Jim Cramer. It was fun. I felt like a human for a brief period of time because, here I am, sharing my knowledge (what I told them on spreads could change their lives, one of the best strategies ever...) showing that maybe, just maybe I am not a bum but still a man that had misfortune in his life.
The boss came and the show was over. Afterwards we sent the application (no resume attached) for that position and after two hours I left her office, she called - the position has been filled "but anyway you'd need to have a basic maintenance diploma", the one I do not have. Great.
From time to time I still have fun with the disasters in my life. However, the sheer, utter dispair envelops me - I am invisible, my days are cold, dark and it will be like this forever.
And I am an alcoholic? I do not even remember that I am such. I do not even believe that I am the guy from those lines on my ridicilous resume on the one I can google and be puzzled over. I do not exist and most likely this time will die or kill myself. I went to "Ready, Willing, Able" with a friend of mine, a guy I met in my homelessnes, a heavy drinker. They helped him with a room and a job for $300.00 a week (cleaning Hudson River Parks, hehehe, holding my dream position) and in my despair that looked like a salvation. To cut a long story short they said that I do not drink thus am not in crisis i.e. they cannot help me because they are here for a people in much worse condition than mine.
Moral of the story? With RWA the drooling drunk would have a chance, a sobrered up drunk does not have one. With Ph.D., Masters, blah blah blah I had (have) no chance ih hell to get any job. So ALL that is left in front of me is to FORGE, dumb-down my resume and try to survive...
Coffee Drinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lobstah Land
Posts: 1,122
What the heck,
I once had a job making 50K+.
I now work at a big box lumber outlet for not very much.
I am very glad I have a job though.
For a long time I was 'OVER QUALIFIED' too. What this means is that they won't give you the minimum wage job because they think you won't be happy there and that you are going to leave as soon as something better comes along.
You can always tone down your resume', it's not lying, you just don't tell them about everything you are capable of.
Start visiting restaurents and ask if they are looking for a dishwasher. Believe me no resume is required or even a good idea, whip out a resume and you're history.
Keep trying,
Ted
I once had a job making 50K+.
I now work at a big box lumber outlet for not very much.
I am very glad I have a job though.
For a long time I was 'OVER QUALIFIED' too. What this means is that they won't give you the minimum wage job because they think you won't be happy there and that you are going to leave as soon as something better comes along.
You can always tone down your resume', it's not lying, you just don't tell them about everything you are capable of.
Start visiting restaurents and ask if they are looking for a dishwasher. Believe me no resume is required or even a good idea, whip out a resume and you're history.
Keep trying,
Ted
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
I think, "dumbing down" your resume is an excellent idea then. I myself have lied on applications in the past, got the job and was never "found out". Taz, I don't think you understand the severity of the situation. You have kept your job and it is easy for you to say, "don't lie, it's just not right". I have spent time in homeless shelters, sleeping on trains ect.... I don't have to be "honest" with anyone but myself. I certainly do not have to be honest with fellow AA members. The only difference between a reason & a excuse is whether or not the other person buys it. I have yet to figure out how to use the "ignore" feature so if anyone knows, help!
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
I don't have to be "honest" with anyone but myself. I certainly do not have to be honest with fellow AA members. The only difference between a reason & a excuse is whether or not the other person buys it. I have yet to figure out how to use the "ignore" feature so if anyone knows, help!
BTW if you wish to ignore reality all you do is left click on the users name.... you will get a pull down.... select the one that says "Filter Post By Taman53".
Maybe you should do a poll and find out how many people like liars.
Do you like to be lied to?
Do you trust people who lie to you?
Do you like people who get ahead by being a liar?
Do you feel being a liar is a good trait?
They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.
There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Bring up the topic of honesty at a meeting and listen to the number of folks who have found that life goes so much smoother with honesty.
I now can look any person in the world dead square in the eye because I know I have never lied to them.
What a world of difference to not have a conversation with some one trying to remember which lies I have told to them to where I will not get caught in a lie.
Man I can remember when I was drinking, I lied so much to so many people either I started to beleive my lies or I would get caught in a lie because I forgot what lie I had told to what person.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
I think I will bring the topic of survival at a meeting. I no longer need to be honest with "AA bullies" and "AA know-it-alls" who want me to follow THEIR directions. It is now 2007 and some folks in recovery cannot or will not grasp this. IMO that is as sad as someone actively drinking.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Yep the last thing some one who wanted to stay sober and learn to live life on lifes terms would want to do is listen to some ones suggestions that is sober and living life on lifes terms.
Tiburon I am not bullying you, nor am I belittling you, I am trying to share things with you that I learned were things I did for 40 years that kept me drinking and what I have changed about me that have kept me not only sober, but very happy and have also made it to where when I look in the mirror in the morning I can honestly say that I not only trust the man I see in the mirror in the morning, but I like him.
When I was drinking I was just like you, people who told me things about myself I did not like were either know it alls or bullies, now that I am sober I have slowly learned that they love me and want to share with me what they have found works for them and many others.
Tiburon I am not bullying you, nor am I belittling you, I am trying to share things with you that I learned were things I did for 40 years that kept me drinking and what I have changed about me that have kept me not only sober, but very happy and have also made it to where when I look in the mirror in the morning I can honestly say that I not only trust the man I see in the mirror in the morning, but I like him.
When I was drinking I was just like you, people who told me things about myself I did not like were either know it alls or bullies, now that I am sober I have slowly learned that they love me and want to share with me what they have found works for them and many others.
Silly Rabbit
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
hi woz... i visited this post a while back, i just wanted to check in with you. i can't imagine how frustrating it is to have to go out and seek high and low for a job when you're obviously a bright, hard-working man.
someone i love very very much is currently in a similar situation. she's been my hero for as long as i can remember, and now she's the "working poor." she has a job, but can't get ahead. she's trapped in debt, trying and trying and feeling like she's not getting anywhere. i know how that feels too, i'm paying off $25,000 in student loans and i didn't even get to graduate. it's so hard to keep your head above water sometimes, it stops being you LIFE, and starts becoming your survival.
all i wanted to share was that there are folks here who are sympathetic with your plight. there are lots of different avenues you can take to get to where you need to be, but i think the main thing you need to be true to right now is your own heart. if you are quiet with yourself, alone with the beating of your heart, maybe an answer will come to you.
the only other place i can think to apply for a job would be a driving position at fedex, dhl, ups, something like that. there's a high turnaround at those places and you can make a decent living.
good luck.
someone i love very very much is currently in a similar situation. she's been my hero for as long as i can remember, and now she's the "working poor." she has a job, but can't get ahead. she's trapped in debt, trying and trying and feeling like she's not getting anywhere. i know how that feels too, i'm paying off $25,000 in student loans and i didn't even get to graduate. it's so hard to keep your head above water sometimes, it stops being you LIFE, and starts becoming your survival.
all i wanted to share was that there are folks here who are sympathetic with your plight. there are lots of different avenues you can take to get to where you need to be, but i think the main thing you need to be true to right now is your own heart. if you are quiet with yourself, alone with the beating of your heart, maybe an answer will come to you.
the only other place i can think to apply for a job would be a driving position at fedex, dhl, ups, something like that. there's a high turnaround at those places and you can make a decent living.
good luck.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Monica
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Emimily
the only other place i can think to apply for a job would be a driving position at fedex, dhl, ups, something like that. there's a high turnaround at those places and you can make a decent living.
Moreover, after I drove from Buenos Aires to Salvador da Bahia (5,000 km) in three days, drunk, I trown away my licence and swear I will not get another one before I am at least one year sober.
And today is only 72nd day...
.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Taz, this is my last reply. You are condescending to me and are not worth anymore of my time. I will have you on my ignore. I do not enjoy following or reading YOUR directions. You drank for 40 years and suddenly have all of AA's answers for everyone. I have drank/drugged for only 10 so I could be 20+ years sober by the time I'm your age. I have the chance (if I stay sober) to live 2 lives in one lifetime. You probably don't, my friend. You are the perfect example of an "AA bully" in action. Why is your understanding of the BIG BOOK automatically the right & only way? Why do you insist on calling people liers? I am an alcoholic just like you but besides that please don't think you know everything about me. It is very insulting. I am tired of being a doormat for the bullies of AA. I am tired of being belittled my certain people. Why can I not have an opinion on honesty that differs from yours?? The AA that I am involved with understands the concept of 2007. I think our difference of opinions on things is mainly due to age. O well, I am done on this discussion.
You're not a bully for God sake. Your posts have much inspiration and heartfelt non-stop giving.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Why do you insist on calling people liers?
I don't have to be "honest" with anyone but myself. I certainly do not have to be honest with fellow AA members.
Why can I not have an opinion on honesty that differs from yours??
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
Originally Posted by tiburon88
I think I will bring the topic of survival at a meeting. I no longer need to be honest with "AA bullies" and "AA know-it-alls" who want me to follow THEIR directions. It is now 2007 and some folks in recovery cannot or will not grasp this. IMO that is as sad as someone actively drinking.
"Blessed is he that follows instruction".
Tib, before AA, I didn't follow instructions at all. If I had a new RC controlled plane kit, I'd put it together, screw it up, then read the directions. Alkies, in general, are like that. We like to do things OUR way, and take suggestions as an insult.
It was only after I followed a few simple suggestions that I was able to put some sobriety into my life. But it wasn't by choice. I had no other options, no one to turn to, and no where to go. I was desperate, and damm near dead.
Don't got there if you don't have to. It ain't fun.
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