Golfman

"I believe I've passed the age
Of consciousness and righteous rage
I've found that just surving was a noble fight

I once believed in causes too
I had my pointless point of view
But life went on no matter who was wrong or right"

Angry Young Man (Billy Joel)

We're all in search of the same thing here, being clean and sober from whatever our drug of choice is. We can debate till the cows come home and no one's opinion will change.

This is a lively discussion which I have thoroughly enjoyed. Both sides have made very valid points. I salute those who have attained clean and sober lives through other methods besides AA/NA.

I would hate to think that one would be "sentenced" to AA and be so miserable. However, as they say in AA, "Live and Let Live."

I've attended AA for over 20 years and not once have I seen any "recruiting" go on. For those of the "Secular" camp, I'm sure that if I were to come to you today for help, you would be kind enough to direct me to what you believe to be a program which has worked for you.

Likewise, for those of us in the "AA/NA" camp, we would direct someone who asked our guidance to the program that has worked best for us. There is so much room for everyone in every program. I respect to the utmost those of you who found AA/NA not to your liking. Again, "Live and Let Live."

While some of you may detest any reference to the AA program, I would like to point out that it is clearly stated that AA is not the only way to achieve sobriety, simply the way that the people who wrote the Big Book found works for them.

One of the 12 traditions of AA is as follows: "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution, does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes, our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion. As we have seen in this lively debate, there are those in AA who have a problem with the courts directing criminals to attend AA meetings. This practiced is not endorsed by AA, but AA is a willing participant based on a desire to help the still suffering alcoholic.

It is also clearly stated that there are other methods to achieve sobriety and AA encourages people to search out the program that works best for them. The desire to help another alcoholic is purely altruistic in nature.

Having said this, I do admit there are those in AA that we call "AA Nazis." I'm sure these types exist in practically every kind of support group. They are overly passionate individuals whose zeal can often times be a deterrent to someone seeking help.

Rather than concentrating on our differences, it might be useful, and this is only a suggestion, to find similarities between our "Secular" friends and friends of AA. Together we can do what we cannot do apart.

Not worrying how you got sober, just glad you're here.

One more little tidbit if you will allow...I would rather "Live and Let Live" than "Live and Let Die."

Iwanttobe1

Not worrying how you got sober, just glad you're here.

That statement says it all Golfman...

Thanks for this thread.

Carol

escape2day

nice post golf. i'm with you on the live and let live. if something is working for someone - i say more power to them. i've been to aa and it just wasn't my thing that would help me. but from reading posts here on the forum aa has been and continues to be a lifesaver for so many. i applaud anyone who has a system that is working for them and they work it.

bee62

I still feel-take what you need, discard the rest. I will use what I deem necessary from AA-fanatics of any sort scare me...it is working so far for me...I salute anyone who can stay sober and HAPPY no matter how they got there!
Thanks for making us think someitmes, Ed!
melissa

Rowan

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing it with us

Emimily

Steady Eddie strikes again!

I think you might be my favorite.

"Live and Let Live" is something everyone can take something from, even those not dealing with alcoholism or addiction. I think there's a lot to be said for some of the AA slogans, particularly "Live and Let Live" and "I'm Ok, You're Ok"... those two alone suggest the tradition in AA that states "we rely on attraction, rather than promotion... principles before personalities." (so I'm not verbatim, so what? ) I've hear time and time again that the steps get us sober, the traditions make sure we can keep doing our steps.

This is really important to look at, especially as a newcomer. Maybe this should be posted there as well?

Way to point out what lurks right under our noses, Ed. You're great!

fraankie

wow
like that is my song
haven't listened to it in years

lyrics, please

Golfman

Your wish is my command


There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl
and he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Give a moment or two to the angry young man
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand
He's been stabbed in the back, he's been misunderstood
It's a comfort to know his intentions are good
He sits in a room with a lock on the door
with his maps and his medals laid out of the floor
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage,
I've found that just surviving was a noble fight
I once believed in causes too, had my pointless point of view
Life went on no matter who was right or wrong.

And there's always a place for the angry young man
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand
He's never been able to learn from mistakes
He can't understand why his heart always breaks
His honor is pure, and his courage as well
he's fair and he's true, and he's boring as hell
And he'll go to his grave as an angry old man.

There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl
and he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

bee62

Probably my favorite Billy Joel song...
We used to listen to him a lot in the dorm at FSU in the early 80s. Great lyrics-I can relate even tho I is a girl...
Thanks for that!
Good Evening all
Melissa

GrouchoTheCat

Hey Golf,

Well said.

I now know what works for me to stay sober.

I did a great deal of rather painful research.

What I do may very well work for others or it may not.

If anyone out there has found a way to become sober, happy, and free, whatever it is, I think that is wonderful.

What I do is attempt to simply tell others how it works for me. I only make suggestions and would never _tell_ someone to do something 'my' way.

Somewhere in the big book there is a statement about people who seem to be able to remain sober without AA. One of these days I'll find it again.

So even the authors of the BB acknowledge that there are alternatives.

So, I guess I'll state, if what you are doing works for you, more power to you!

If what you are doing is not working, you may wish to try something else!

Live and let live,

Ted

Golfman

Groucho,

That's all we can do, stay sober and hope that others find a way to as well.

Love the attitude man, sounds like you're at peace Ted.

ed

GrouchoTheCat

Yes, I would have to say that I do feel peaceful (most of the time).

As I have said elsewhere I finally came to a place where I am at peace with the fact that I am an alcoholic. I just stopped fighting the idea. Where alcohol and certain drugs are concerned I simply have no control whatsoever and thats OK.

I is what I is. I am an alcoholic.

Wow, what a concept. It took me many years to finally truly accept that.

Ted

teej

Great post Ed!

nolonger

I have a hard time dealing with anger. First, because there's still so much resentment and fear and pointless anger inside of me, it's very very hard to let go. The hardest thing, harder than not drinking one day at a time.

But also, because there are a lot of things in the world that we *should* be angry about - and I don't want to lose that kind of anger, and just be like "relax, everything's fine..."

Hard to tell the difference though - I think I need "wisdom to tell the difference" there too.
peace, nl.

mtnmagic

Thanks for posting Golfman. I have been conflicted about AA in the past. All I do know today, after multiple relapses and being only one week sober is that it works for me. When I go to meetings and stay very focused on my recovery I stay sober. When I don't sooner or later I drink and relapse hard. For me it is that simple, although I try and complicate things and muck it up with all sorts of crazy thinking. Go to meetings and I don't drink. Stop and I sink.

Golfman

So happy you are doing "something". It's so important to be where you can identify with people around you. Keep going to meetings and don't drink, that's the deal. One other thing....as time goes on, meetings and not drinking will not be enough. Give it some time, then find yourself someone who will work with you to go through the Big Book and help you work the steps. That's where we get our real relief.

Golfman

Nolonger,

I have a way of getting rid of that anger, even if you feel it's justifiable. You see, our realy problem is not alcoholc...whoa!! did he just say what I think he said? Yes, drinking is just a symptom of the reall causes and conditions. If you knew how to deal with them, you would not find it necessary to drink.

You asked the question "HOW" Try this on and see if it fits:

H - Honest
O - Openminded
W - Willing

If you can be these three things, you can begin the road to recovery. Let me know if you'd like to delve into this further. If not, that's okay too. One thing I was told was that if I'll just try something different, maybe things will change. It didn't cost me anything, but they told me that if I didn't like it, they would refund my misery any time I wanted. When I weighed the options...try something different vs staying in misery and anger, it was a pretty easy choice to make. I tried something different and I haven't found it neccessary to take a drink for a long time

Yours in sobriety,
Ed

TINLIZZY

Thank you Ed -

I have received great comfort, understanding, fellowship and support from the groups I attend. I only hope that others find the same through THEIR group of choice!!

Country, rock, blues, jazz, classical - Is one correct and the others incorrect. I think not -

TinLizzy

hope3

Thank you Ed, you are a very generous person.

Getting to know you though your post has and

continues to be an honor for me, thanks.

I think the most thing to remember is, compassion.

Most who come here are struggling, and like the experts in the field of

alcoholism say, a doctor is a great resource to start the initial assessment process, and to get other resources in your area.

2nd step is Treatment: treatments vary from counseling alone to counseling and anticraving medications and etc.

Treatments for some may involve rehab centers, inpatient, or out patient centers.

3rd step usually requires long term programs, either 12 step (A.A. eg.) or other types of long term recovery programs.

There isn't one set of things that all people would use, that is why it is sometimes important to be assessed by a professional in the field, if you feel, and many do, that you need help.

Many have gotten sober and stayed sober just with a program like A.A., but this is all for you to decide.

There are allot of great information about types of programs and treatment center phone numbers in the stickies under the alcoholism forum.

If there is any questions you have, fire a way, there are many people who have or are where you are now, that would love to help, me included.

Like Ed said if we look at the big picture, (getting sober) there isn’t any one way, but usually help is needed. What will be your help is up to you.

I love you guys, hope3