marius404

I have been reading "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It has made me curious as to the nature of alcoholism in so far as evolution is concerned.

If alcoholism is genetic then what purpose does it serve? Life evolves through natural selection and so the genes that are effective proponents of life are favored while those that are not fall by the wayside.

Obviously, I see no apparent benifit of the genes that would be responsible for alcoholism. How can the instructions our body give us to be vulnerable to a poison that is life threatening bring about benifits to life or survival of the gene pool as a whole?

If anyone has any theories I would be interested in them. The only thing I have come up with is that purhaps alcoholism is a undesired consequence from a set of instructions given by genes having to do with something else all together.

CarolD

As far as I know...there is no solid proof
that alcoholism is soley genetic.

For me...it's not how I became an alcoholic that I find interesting.
my life as an alcoholic in recovery is fascinating.

collinsmi

[QUOTE]If alcoholism is genetic then what purpose does it serve? Life evolves through natural selection and so the genes that are effective proponents of life are favored while those that are not fall by the wayside.
[QUOTE]

Would it be culled out? I got to reproduce, as I'm sure did most others here.

barb dwyer

I dunno ... for the most part, I like it that for me, the colors are a bit brighter than the average bear, that the 'edges' are a bit crisper, the light sharper ...
I have begun to prefer feeling things deeper than others apparently do ... sometimes other's perceptions seem ... shallow comparatively.
*shrug*

Were we still a tribal society - we'd be the shaman, the artists, the storytellers, for sure ... no one can tell a story like an alcoholic, man.
We'd be the keepers of history, the healers...

what purpose does it serve?

We advance as Souls ... that's what. We get to teach ourselves ... how to live. We get to re-design our Selves ... from the ground up. We are gifted the opportunity to step out of what has always been expected of us ... into a new and improved version - of our own Original Intended Self ...
pretty dang cool, if you ask me!

What purpose does anything TRULY serve? One. One only.
And I'm grateful for the chance to do it.

thanks!
barb

Hush007

Barb,... that was just beautiful! Thanks!

marius404

@Collinsmi

I think it could be culled out given enough time. I would guess than an alcoholics lifespan is less than the average nonalc. Less time to live means less time to breed. Also, gotta think about the effects of alcohol on pregnancy,ect.ect.

There is the counter argument that drunk people have more unprotected sex which would result in more kids.That only holds up in a modern society though.

Tazman53

Okay part of the genetic studies have show that the longer alcohol has been available to a population the lower the percentage of alcoholics, the less time alcohol has been available to a certain population the higher the percentage of alcoholics.

The group of people with the lowest percentage of alcoholics is the people of the Mediterainian area of the world where it is beleived alcoholic beverages originated.

The group of people with the highest rate of alcoholism is the native Americans who have only had alcohol in thier societies for 600 or less years.

Logic would indicate that with thousands of years of exposure to alcohol that alcoholics would reproduce at a lower rate then non-alcoholics for numerous reasons resulting in a lower percentage of alcoholics in said population.

Logic would also indicate that with only 600 years of exposure to alcohol for most native Americans, or in the case of the Inuits with only 100-150 years exposure that alcoholics would reproduce also at a lower rate then non-alcoholics for numerous reasons resulting in a lower percentage of alcoholics in said population. BUT with far less time exposed to alcohol it takes time to see a signifigant drop in it compared to populations with thousands of years of exposure.

The genes that predispose some one to alcoholism are not a detriment to a person unless they drink alcohol as a result if a population is never exposed to alcohol the genetic trait has no detrimental effect on thier reproduction.

BBQBOY

Well done TAZ.....or should I say Proffessor......

Cathy31

For the joy of recovery. I think that's the reason.

UncleEarl

(Taz: 600 years is a genetic blink of the eye. If your stats are correct, the incidence of alcoholism is likely more a matter of, say, cultural "maturity" or so-called evolving cultural mores)

Assuming that alcoholism is caused by genetic predisposition alone (a theory to which I do not subrscribe), history is fraught with genetic mutations. A slight genetic mutation (for instance, becoming addicted to alcohol rather than, say, apples) might be magnified by all-too-human -i.e. error-prone- intervention.

It might be the case that every human has a set of addictive genes. A Darwinian explanation for such genes might be that they exist for such life-preserving functions as healthy eating habits, excersize habits, and the like. If the genes are sent confusing messages from drugs, alcohol, sex, too much chocolate, and all those other nasty little practices that can bring us to ruin, the genes might not be genetically evolved enough to differentiate between that with is life-preserving and that which is life-threatening.

OR: perhaps centuries of alcohol use has caused a genetic mutation. Hence, familial lines of the likes of alcoholism. If I could trace alcoholism back for 10 generations, it might be the case that the practices of my ancestors have mutated my "healthy" addiction-genes.

We have a genetic predispostion to seek sex for procreation. We do not have a genetic predisposition to have sex with monkeys. The result of someone having sex with a monkey? H.I.V. Is H.I.V. a selective genetic screening process? "Only those who engage in 'unclean' sex and drug behaviour will be eradicated?" Doubtful. It's another mutation caused by human intervention. (BTW, to the best of my limited knowledge, many other of our ailments -e.g. smallpox, some flus, etc- originate from non-human animals).

I'm with the recovery people on this one: no matter the cause of my alcoholism, the effect of my recovery process thus far has been nothing short of amazing.

Earl

Tazman53

Earl just check out the stats on alcoholism by culture/race, it is an eye opener. My father was an alcoholic, his parents were Jehovahs Witnesses so drinking was frowned upon, my mothers dad was an alcoholic, my little brother is also, but he wised up years before I did.

Scientist have not found the gene yet, but they have done test on children of alcoholics and thier livers process alcohol just like an alcoholics and not like a normal persons.

One can have the alcoholic gene and never have full blown alcohlism if they never drink, or only drink on occasions. There is speculation that children of alcoholic mothers who drank during thier pregnancy are already started into the progressive portion of alcoholism because of thier mothers drinking.

Have you ever known a person who the very first time they had a drink loved it and wanted more right then and there? This is speculation though, no in depth research has been done on this because many alcoholic mothers will not divuldge whether they drank during thier pregnancy.

fraankie

marius404
as in
PHD?
molecular biogiologist?
Mr. / MS. just plain curious?

the bottom line is
since the first grape was crushed,
the first beer hop hopped,
etc
if you, you, you
in 2007
have a problem with alcohol
you, you, you are an alcoholic
get help

genes, sm-enes
even if they did find you have an "alcoholic" gene
what do we do?
let everyone skate on a dwi?
give you a free tab at the local bar?
from the age of 6,
instead of kindergarten,
put the kid in a business course to run a bar?

i know this is a lol type of post
but
a teacher once mentioned
"the New York Daily News" is written on a 6th grade level
even the "times"
unless you are involved in the dna sequencing
whatever you read, research is
at best, mediocre info for the masses
put into simple english
for some conversation over morning coffee

and if you are involved in the dna sequencing
even if you have the "alcoholic" gene
you have got the time to become an alcoholic
'cause you are probably obsessed with winning the nobel prize
and
work about 22 hours a day
so
look at yourself
focus on yourself
have a laugh over this rsvp
ann
go to AA



best
fraankie

UncleEarl

Tazz: I wasn't disputing the stats. I was suggesting that there may be a discrepency between interpretations of the stats.

Either way, I suspect we ultimately agree that genetic or not, there are identifiable trends for addictions like alcoholism and life is SOOO much better without succumbing to the addictions.


Earl

Nuudawn

The book I'm reading given to my by a dear friend (and addictions counsellor) "The Spirituality of Imperfection" by E. Kurtz and K. Ketcham provides some very interesting insight into this in discussing the "once born" (the healthy minded) and the "twice born" (the sick souls). Definitely worth the read.

marius404

@ Frannkie...

Calm it down just a bit

Let me put this in perspective. I am an inquisitive person who is enjoying a good book right now. I am also an alcoholic (sober at the moment) who thinks about alcohol a good bit more than the normal person. So I just thought I would see what people here in this forum think about the question I possed. It isn't a right or wrong thing. Just a topic of conversation. And where you got the idea that I was somehow trying to use genetics as a scapegoat for drinking, well, I truly have no idea because I never implied that!

BTW, good responses! I never would have connected the dots between native american culture's short exposure to alcohol and the effects it has had. I would love to get more info on this topic. I am genuenly intrigued!

fraankie

It isn't a right or wrong thing.



i know
i just try to focus on myself
i read some of the responses
they are really good
it's good to be knowledgeable
like i said
it was a lol post


best
fraankie