came2believe

As Mark Twain said: "There are lies, damn lies - and statistics."

AA works for me, that is all I need to know...

tiburon88

Yes, Taz I laugh too when the court mandated people (I was once) bring in their papers to be signed. If a person can't figure it out that they can just forge some name on the sheet, then they really do have some problems. Here in IL the court system places more emphasis on treatment and rehab then AA meetings. Judges like to see graduation diplomas and stuuf like that.

Tazman53

In my area they do both now, it used to be just AA, but they figured out that AA does not work for someone who wants to keep drinking and simply wants to stay out of jail.

I have no problem with the court ordered folks, I know a few of them who actually found the solution in the rooms, they were ready, the courts just sped it up for them a little!

PurpleReign

I get a good chuckle from this thread - because it's just us being us.

Let's not forget that the disease doesn't just cause us to drink/desire drink but it causes us to be egotistical, dramatic, and stubborn.

C'mon now, group hug!

PR

hope3

Hi all, if it's working, don't break it.

If it ain't working, fix it, what ever works....

I love you guys.....((((((((((hope3))))))))))))

fraankie

how now, brown cow
i mean, like
you make a good point
but
this is 2007
even if all alcohol vanished
well, pass that joint, my friend
i'm sure
many would just switch addictions
as in food, drugs, gambling, cigarettes, etc
and
purple reign makes a good point
"......................................but it causes us to be egotistical, dramatic, and stubborn...................."

it's a disease of the attitudes
so to speak

finally,
Any thoughts or am I just crazy?
get away from this
there is no stupid question in AA
i'm going crazy
i'm crazy
am i nuts?
don't play
check out wikipedia for some psyche 101


best
fraankie

GettinSober

I think what Scotty is suggesting is that alcoholism is primarily a mental disorder as opposed to a physical disease (especially in its outset).

I have stated before I have a personal difficulty accepting alcoholism as a 'disease' / 'illness' in the same way that diabetes is (for example). Type 1 diabetics had no choice in suffering their illness - we all chose to drink that first drop - so there was an element of 'choice' for us although we were unaware just how things would turn out.

Anyway as for Scottys question / statement? I have a tendency to agree with him. Nonetheless - It doesn't change what I am.

scorpy

Hi Tazman, I don't want to source all the links here from other internet sites so that you think I am trying to bash AA, I am not. But you can just do a quick search by typing Alcoholics Anonymous success rate. There are also publications from the quarterly journal of studies on alcohol backing up the stats. But we both know that's not the point. If you are really determined, you are the 25%.

As far as the 7 weeks program, the success rate is based on the follow up interviews with each client. The first is at 6 months, showed that 92% were abstinent and 85% had remained continually abstinent since treatment. The second interview is 3.5 years after treatment. They locate 95 out of 100 clients, and find 74% remained abstinent. They later published this result in the international journal of biosocial and medical research.

Tazman53

Scorpy I understand you are not AA bashing, but statistics are totally usless unless one knows how the stats were gathered. I just do not want those who truly want to get sober to be misled by statistics.

I understand better now how the stats were gathered for the program you are talking about. There are several things that make their stats good:

1. No one is court ordered to use their program so they are not part of the stats. (Think about what thier stats would be if the same number of people that were court ordered into AA were court ordered into thier program)

2. It cost money as a result the only people who participate/buy thier program are serious about quitting, so this eleminates two huge groups of people:

A. Those who are not sure if they really want to quit.
B. Everyone who can not afford thier program.

3. Unemployed and homeless people I highly doubt would try thier program.

4. In a nutshell this program is great for folks who really want to quit and have the financial means to use it.

5. This program is for the cream of the crop of the alcoholic world. Simple logic dictates that they will have high success rates.

Scorpy there are an awful lot of folks on here and out in the world of alcoholism that hardly can afford a pot to pee in, little lone this program, for those that can obviously it works well, but to compare them to AA stats is total BS.

Once again how can any group including AA itself gather stats on a group of people with:

No member list?
No attendance list?
No record keeping of its membership of any sort?

Sorry but stats for AA good or bad are a joke and totally unreliable no matter what the source is.

Ask a statistician if even semi accurate stats could be gathered on a group that is world wide with absolutely no records of attendance, membership, or participation? The answer is, NO it can not be done.

I could claim 100% success rate for AA if you only counted people who followed all the suggestions in the program and that would be an accurate figure, but there is no way possible to tell how many people that would be because there is no record keeping. Of course all programs would have 100% success rate if they only included those who followed the program. LOL

Now Scorpy if you want to come up with a small select poll to gather some stats try it right here!

Start a poll with the criteria that you must have 90 days of sobriety out side of a detox/rehab facility before you can participate.

Then simply list AA and all other long term recovery programs and see which program has the highest number.

Now if you wish you could take it a step further and ask for everyone with more then 10 years of sobriety what program they are using.

I would be willing to bet money I know what program would be at the top of the list by a long shot.

collinsmi

There have been a lot of treatment programs developed for alcoholism over the years, they come and go regularly. There is a lot of money to be made off the disease. I had a speaker tape by Clancy I " Alcoholism: a disease of perception" that outlined a few that were trotted out in the 60s and 70s. I've also heard wildly varying success rate statistics over the years, and I can't help viewing them with a lot of scepticism. One thing cannot be denied: AA grew, on it's own, from 2 alcoholics in Akron Ohio to a worldwide fellowship with millions of members in about 80 years.

Tazman53

AA is also the ONLY program that does not promote itself, its members attract other alcoholics who want what they have.

I always am a bit skeptical of the for profits. They have a financial incentive to have good results!

Heck even some of the de-tox places push certain recovery programs either due to kick backs or belonging to the same company, thank God the one I went into was honest and said flat out that if you want long term sobriety your best chance is in AA. They did not say a single thing against any other programs and even offered literature on the other ones.

scorpy

Yes, there are many programs out there and I believe you don't have to pick only one to follow. Many programs are mutually exclusive that can be followed together, and individual should do their own research to find out which ones are best for them.

Bill Wilson himself was actively investigating the biochemical basis of alcoholism. He discovered the benefits of niacin replacement therapy and published 3 communications to AA physicians that summarizd research supporting niacin's many benefits for alcoholics. His hope was that continued research would find a means whereby those alcoholics who want to stop but are too ill to grasp the AA program could be released from their bonage and enabled to join AA.

Tess37

Any one watch Craig Ferguson a few nights back? he said something so classic...

"I dont have a drinking problem... I can go out and get one real quick, but I dont have a drinking problem. I have a thinking problem"

Budfrog

A decent link:

worldwideweb.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.htm

You will need to edit link as I do not have enough posts to submit a link (crazy rule or what ... enough to drive you to .. well .. another cup of tea !!)

hope3

Ah, GS, but, when we decided to take that first drink, so did between 10- to 15 other people that are non-alcoholics.

It's like russion ruelett I guess, but you know, I certainly didn't know

these facts when I did pick up that first drink, I might not have if I did.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda, is just a hinsight, gone wrong.

Interesting debate though, one that will probably never be 100%

provable either way.

More importantly, theres some of us that just can't do it, period, so now I made the choice, not to.....

Bles you all in your recovery roads. ((((((((((((((hope3)))))))))))))

SaTiT

here's a monkey wrench to rack your brain scotty.lol
what if it's three deminsion ??
mentally, physically, spiritually...sick

CarolD

Anyone considered that active alcoholics are often liars?

I am the only alcoholic I know for certain that is sober!
So...for me AA has a success rate of 100%

I would venture to guess that is true of any program
and for those who have quit not using one.

Be a winner
Quit drinking!

Budfrog

I also have a major problem accepting that alcohol is a disease and prefer to refer to it as a chronic addiction.

Diseases to me are things like Cancer, Smallpox, Cholerra and are totally differant to alcohol dependancy in the respect that they attack the body even if a normal healthy lifestyle is followed. Whether we like it or not we have all brought alcoholism upon ourselves to a greater or less degree, admitedly some with mitigating circumstances in the extreme.

That said I have no issues with alcoholics who refer to their problem as being a disease because I think for ceratin individuals it is easier to cope with things and maintain a better self image by doing so. However I would never be brazen enough to stand before a terminal cancer patient and say that my alcohol problems are a disease.

Tazman53

budfrog scientist have proven it is a disease, it is physical.

Any one who takes heroin often enough will develop a physical addiction to it.

Any one = physical addiction

Only a person who is physically different from a normal person can become and alcoholic.

A normal person can drink hard for 10 years and quit with very little difficulty because their body handles alcohol differently then an alcoholic.

An alcoholic develops physically due to being physically different then normal people in the way his body handles alcohol, several things a normal person never gets:

1. A physical ever increasing tolerance to alcohol.
2. A physical craving for more alcohol after one drink.
3. A mental obsession for alcohol.

This is proven scientifically, it is not theory!

Check out NIH's web site, do a search on alcoholism, it is defined as a "Disease", next do a search on drug addiction, take notice that it is not a disease.

Only those different physically = disease

PurpleReign

Well, my question is would being an alcoholic be more or less difficult if it were officially a disease, chronic condition, or psychological disorder?

Pick one:
A. No
B. Nope
C. Not really
D. Negative Ghost Rider

So, what's all the fuss?

PR