Jon

Hey Whiskey...Pop-Quiz:

What's the name of this particular forum?

Answer: Alcoholism.

Not Alcoholics Anonymous, Not 12-step fellowships, not Big Book thumpers.

Pop-Quiz #2:

What method of quitting drinking is used by more people than any other?

Wrong. It's not AA. More people quit on their own than any other method.

Pop-Quiz #3:

For those that use a "program' for recovery, which has the highest success rate?

Wrong again. Statistically, AA has no better track record than church, psychology, or other support groups.

Here's the deal. AA worked for me-that doesn't mean I know what will work for you or anybody else.

Pop-quiz #4:

What is the number one reason people stop going to meetings after their very first one?

Answer: Take a good, hard look in the mirror...

We don't shoot our wounded where I come from. And everyone is equal-we're all just a bunch of drunks with a few minutes under our belts...

Be kind to the newcomer, he may very well be your sponsor someday...

whiskysquicker

I don't know who appointed you as God of these boards,but there decision making processes are rather flawed,as far as your infantile personal attacks on me and others,leads me to question if AA indeed WORKS for you.
It is my opinion you are becoming a nuisance and your input is inflammatory and unneccesarry,there seems to have been instigated a great deal of hostility that was heretofore unknown previous to your arrival,I would like it put to a vote,I don't take any thing anyone does or says personal but there may be others here that are not quite as resilient as others.

Jon

Whiskey, I do not make "personal" attacks. At the same time, I have had no real response from you regarding my posts/information other than you getting defensive.

As far as "god"...it is your belief that your way is the only way. That's not just playing God, it's downright dangerous to the newcomer.

And a vote?

Now THAT'S funny..........

whiskysquicker

No what's funny,but not in the funny HA HA sense is that you talk about a code of love tolerance but you don't practice it,I'm very tempted to respond in like but like myself we are all spiritually sick and fault finding and argument are to be avoided like the plague,I have asked God to help me show you the same tolerance pity and patience I would cheerfully grant a sick freind,God save me from being angry,Thy will nt mine be done Amen

Jon

Actually whiskey, I don't talk about it. Read the book a little more and tell us all what page it's on...

marilyn s

whiskeyman,
It kind of weird how you write like one under the influence. Yet you are just SO sober and so wise. You just don't know when to shut up.

whiskysquicker

column one:Jon
column2:said I'm full of B.S.,need to do inventorysiad I am a problem
column 3: affects my:pride,i'm not full of BS,I'm trying to help people,I'm Spiritual
slef esteemI know whwt I'm talking about I'm an expert on AA
Personal relations: people should respect my opinions agree with me

column 4selfish:selfish taking things personally
selfseeking:retaliating
dishonest:saying I don't take things personally,subtle innuendos
frightened:maybe I'm really full of crap people will think I don't know what I'm talking about
security:I need to be right to be ok
I need to win arguments to be ok

defects pride ,arrogance self reliance sarcasm,judgindg disho
nesty

Jon I was wromg when I started out with accusations that you haven't read the book or that you know what you are talking about
every one else I was wrong when I failed to pause when agited and ask God to remove my anger nay fear and engaged in this hate ful dialouge,if there is any thing I can do to make it right,please let me know,or if there are any other harms I may have caused please let me know
Thanks

Jon

Nevermind, you took way too long. I guess your sponsor wasn't up this late.

Page 84, second full paragraph, last sentence:

"Love and Tolerance of Others is our Code"

Others=everybody other than me. Even if they don't get sober the way I want them to, or work the steps the way I want them to. Even if they drink or use again, or if they're wishy-washy about recovery.

I will love them and tolerate them anyway.

Why? Because I'm just like them. I'm a drunk and a dope fiend and I don't know what will work for someone else. I can only share what worked for me...

marilyn s

One step in the right direction would be, to be coherent.

Sit Tight

Jon won't say it, but I will: whiskysquicker - take a good look at Jon's avatar and the writing below it. The ask again who made him "God" of these boards. He built this site from nothing but an idea and a hope of giving back what had freely been given to him. He spends hours and hours on the phone lining up sponsors to help pay the bills around here. He spends even more time holding hands of those that need help, often at the expense of his own quality time, and with no strings attached. He gives and gives and gives, often excessively. Sometimes to a fault. He built this site and every page on it. Okay, I help a lot too.

But then what did Jon do? He gave the site to you people to help one another. What have you done in exchange? You have placed requirements on a newcomer: "...either you want it all the way or you don't. There are others waiting for my help."

Get over yourself and remember that you are a guest here. If you want to ask again who made Jon "God" around here: you folks did when you accepted his gift. This site. But Jon would NEVER think of himself as God. He knows that he is a man. I know him as a solid example of what recovery can be about. Experience, Strength and Hope.

Word of advice: quit preaching and for Pete's sake, keep your fingers off of the keyboard if you can't contribute helpfully. Newcomers don't want to be preached to. They need to learn for themselves that there is hope. And hope comes from hearing and reading the experiences of those that have sobriety, and of how it laters transforms into strength. Perhaps you should read the Spiritual Experience and refrsh your memory on how many "Educational Variety" members we have. We accept recovery at our own pace and in our own time. Not yours.

The Jay Walker

WQ

hey its all good, take care , this board hasn't seen this much action in a while.

justaround

Hmmmm...well I'm sober still! (anybody care?). I'm just kidding!

Well, I got some review. Resentments get us nowhere. Now where did I first bring that up again...

Well back to recovery, eh?


-------I am sober right now, I must be doing something right-----------

Morning Glory

There's a newcomer over on general recovery that could use some help.

Jon

Quick story:

In early sobriety I fell in with a group of men who were very service oriented. At 5 weeks sober, I began going on panels to Skid Row in Dowtown Los Angeles. My first night there was nothing short of a complete shock. About a hundred homeless men and women, most wearing rags and carrying their entire world with them, were sitting in folding chairs at this outside AA meeting. The smell from a lot of these men and women almost made me gag. Most don't have the luxury of daily showers.

While waiting for the panel to begin, the leader, Rick R., told me I would be speaking first. I asked rick what a newcomer lke me should say to these men and women. His reply was that these skid row alcoholics could relate much easier to somone with a few weeks sober, rather than someone with many years, because on Skid Row it was truly "A Day At A Time" if not a minute or a second.

When visiting with these alcoholics, some of whom I came to know and love very much, our mission was to simply let them know that they were not alone and that there was hope. Step 0.
I was told that quoting the book or the steps would mean absolutely nothing at that moment-that what I needed to do was learn to love these man and women, rags, smell and all, just as they were. Why? because other than environment I was no different. I was an alcoholic. They were alcoholic.

For several years I went downtown, and although things mostly stayed the same, once in awhile you would see 30, 60, 90 day chips being taken. And once in a great while, a one-year birthday. I was fortunate to spend 3 sober birthdays with the men and women of Skid Row.

Rick also imparted this: If I have a week clean, I help somone with a day; if I have a month, i'm to help someone with a week; ans so on. His words: "There is no time requirement for service, and it is an obligation, not an elective" In order to recover, I must start giving back at once.

Bob will be going in July for a volunteer gig, and I hope to join him.

I'll get to practice my Step 0 all over again.

whiskysquicker

Dude,
I am trying to understand you,are you trying to tell me that because there are some skid row winos that might not be able to comprehend much,that you do what ,just tell 'em uh hi there we're visiting from the suburbs,but hey man you're not alone.I mean what is your point about quoting or not quoting the big book,the truth is the truth when I quote it I'm speaking of my experience personally,alcohol'most killed me,half measures kill drunks like usYou don't appear based on some of your comments to believe a lot of the basic of recovery according to the big book,I could be wrong,and even if think the books full of crap,third tradition keeps me from bootin you out of AA I'm just tryin' to understand where you are coming from and why you seem to have so much anger,I mean I may or may not have been sober as long as you and I may have spent more time with hoboes than yo but I'll tell you one thing I've got is passion,you said you don't make personal attacks,youre' mistaken brother,I have forgiven you and Iwish you the best,don't forget rule 64

Sit Tight

Who the hell do you think you are? You have no ability to kick anybody out of AA. Check your profile.

whiskysquicker

Hey I thought you kicked me out ,what gives,I mean if you feel I'm that disruptive,I can find something else to do,I'm just trying to share my experience strength and hope in the best way I know how,it ain't for everybody but it is for those who need it that way it worked for me,I almost died tryin take what you like and leave the rest.

SobrietyFirst

Whiskysquicker,

On the nose and direct, and I appreciate muchly the clarification. I've been doing quite well of late having begun to integrate steps 10 and 11 into my routine, plus continuing the amends process. My responses and understanding are getting a bit watered down.

I've been in the disease so very much up to this point, and having begun to experiencce the solution as promised through taking these steps, I find my awareness drifting out of the painfulness and discomfort of the disease.

You are quite correct about our own personal experience being the key, and though I do not have a desire to shut the door on my past, I am watering it down a bit. Thats not particularly helpful to those trying to understand their condition.

Justaround,

Whiskysquicker's reply is AA Book based, and quite correct. It is important to be armed with the facts of the disaese, then rely upon one's own experience to see if they apply.

Blessings and keep on trucking.

SobrietyFirst

I hadn't read the entire thread prior to my last post, and it reminded me of something I found to be very true for me.

Forgive the quotes from the Book of AA below here, but I have found these passages to be quite true in my own experience.

The point of all of this is at the end of the post, so feel free to skip all of this, as I can be verbose at times.

AA Book, Pg62:

"Selfishness, selfcenteredness. That we think is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self delusion, self seeking, and self pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Some times, they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt."

AA Book, Pg64:

"Being convinced that self manifested in various ways had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations.

RESENTMENT IS THE NUMBER ONE OFFENDER. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else.

AA Book, Pg66-67:

"It is plain that a life which includes deep resentment leads onyl to futility and unhappiness. To the precise extent we permit these, do we squander the hours that might have been worthwhile. But with the alcoholic, whose hope is the maintenance and growth of a spiritual experience, this business of resentment is infinitely grave...For when harboring such feelings, we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the spirit. The insanity of alcohol returns and we drink again."

From my experience:

One of the first things my sponsor did with me was discuss at length the disease as outlined in the Book of AA. He emphasized repeatedly that the book itself is based upon the experience of the first one hundred. He further emphasized to me, as a new comer, how crucial it is to recognize whether or not I am an alcoholic.

He said things to me like my mind was dellusional, that I couldn't see the truth, that ignoring my mind and emotions is irrelevant, and pay attention to the facts of my experience based upon a careful review was pertinent.

I was resistant from the very start, particularly with his approach, and what it boiled down to for me was that I didn't like at all what he was telling me or how he was telling it to me.

Upon review of my experience, though, I could not deny the truth of what his directness was revealing to me. When I shared with him my not liking it, his was response was "I didn't ask you to like it. No where in the book does it say you have to like it."

What he was preparing me for was the first step, where it is absoultely required that I concede to my innermost self that I am powerless over alcohol.

Later, I really got it that resentments, even in the tiniest degree, will in point of fact kill me as an alcoholic. I'd like to say it was from taking step four that convinced me of this fact for me, but it was actually my stinky feet.

My roommate had complained a couple of times about how smelly my feet were. He went to the extreme of buying me a can of lysol disinfectant spray, repeatedly reminding of the stench in the room.

I got angry, as I didn't seee it as being such a big thing, and being the good alcoholic I am, I didn't like being told what to do. It was then that the light dawned on me.

I saw that even if I did the things I needed to to keep the room smelling fresh, he would find something else. As I responded to that, he would find something else. The resentment would only get bigger and bigger, and no matter what I did, he wasn't going to change at all. I HAD TO CHANGE!!!

Freedom from these resentments isn't about changing someone else. It is in the recognition that the resentment occurs within me, sometimes out of a harm that is real, while at other times from a harm that is only fancied. My roomate wasn't picking on me at all, so the harm was a figment of my imagination. Amazing that such a small thing, when harbored for long enough, will in point of fact kill me.

Blessings

justaround

Once again, as Jon has said, this is not an alcoholics anonymous forum. All you have to do if you want to quote three or so pages from it, is simply go down one line and there it is! Amazing. Don't get me wrong, I read the Big Book everyday and go with the steps but there is a reason I did not go on that forum. I am trying to learn other views and approaches on dealing with alcoholism. Jotting down a paragraph here and there is quiet alright. Remember that a lot of people who go to this forum haven't read a page in the BB. Well, keep on truckin