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Attempting Moderation--why its not a good idea

Old 01-19-2007, 07:43 PM
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Lotta stuff about moderation on the forums lately. Here is what I was thinking...


Love it or hate it, most every alcoholic is gonna try moderation. Thats just the nature of the beast. So, we can argue about it all day long but in the end, its something you have to try for yourself. Just please, don't spend years of your life trying to moderate unsuccesfully.

Have a plan. Set your goals. Determine how much alcohol you consider to be drinking in moderation. And if after a few months you are not succesful at meeting your goals, well, its time to give it up and go for sobriety.

Really though, normal people don't crave alcohol so much that they can't imagine living with out it. Normal people don't sit around thinking about the next time they can justify getting a drink.

I do believe if a happy healthy mind is what you, as an alcoholic, are looking for you will be hard pressed to find it in moderation.

In the end,yes, moderation probably works for some people. If your one of those than congrats! But if your like most of the rest of us who have tried moderation many times before and always end up failing.....at some point you need to be honest with yourself and admit that it is NEVER going to work.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:18 PM
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In response to getting better, it is a little sad to think of a social circle where not drinking will make me feel like an outcast. I wouldn't mind if people out there could maybe share how they no longer drink and they have fun and fullfilling social lives and lots of great friends who aren't telling them to do one more shot with them. Well, there is one member out there with pictures of his motorcycle...that seems like a fun thing to do. And I agree with Marius 404...I think everyone will try moderation...if it works then great and if it doesn't then it seems like AA and no drinking would be the right thing, either way, I think it would be healthy to have lots of fun and good friends that are not related to drinking.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:40 PM
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Chitown, I have a bookclub comprised of myself and a bunch of moms from the kids' school. I used to use our outings as an excuse to drink and get myself just loaded enough not to completely humilate myself. (I thought)Then, of course, I would go home and finish the job, drinking till I passed out as usual. I still go out to the restaurants with them but I don't drink anymore. They know it and don't blink when I drink a cranberry juice or whatever. We still have as much fun as we used to. I used to think I was so witty when I was half loaded but I am starting to realize I was mostly obnoxious. I'm much wittier now that I can remember the whole English language. LOL.

I also have a ton of sober friends from AA. And, I have learned that two other moms at the kids' school are sober AAs, one through a meeting & one through a conversation. So, we have something in common-gosh it feels like grade school all over again, we have own little 'secret club.' I love it! It's a real sense of camaraderie.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:49 PM
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chitown, I aploigize for being harsh, I forgot about the realities of peer pressure and fitting in, even in "grown-up" situations. I, thank god, do not have an alcohol problem, or is alcohol a trigger for my drug use, but it can be for somebody off drugs, replacing one with another, or lowering inhibitions to someone who can't afford to. My new friends in NA drink coffee and are fun and nice people to be around.
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Old 01-19-2007, 09:02 PM
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Hits the nail right on the head. I've said before, if you spend all this time trying to moderate, that pretty much tells you that you can't drink like a normal person. I've seen people actually make charts! All we can hope is that person you care about, finally becomes honest with themselves.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:45 PM
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Hmm...I did not do moderate drinking
nor do I do moderate AA recovery.

I'm an all or nothing type of gal.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by best View Post
What is an alcoholic? What others think of me because of my drinking does NOT make me an alcoholic. What "I" think of my drinking and the effect alcohol has on me is what makes me an alcoholic.

Alcoholics Can Not Moderate.

People who use alcohol in large doses that are "not" alcoholic Can moderate if they so desire and have the will power. Alcoholics can Not.
True for alcoholics but not for all the heavy drinkers i.ee binge drinkers or problem drinkers. They are a different category and the one I am categorized in as of now. Not everybody in this forum is a full blown alcoholic. Some are troubled and disturbed by their behaviour and come here to seek advise. I speak on behalf of those people who are not yet alcoholics.

Moderation for me is 2 units of drink per night for males 1 and unit for females. If I say I am determined to keep my drinking habit within the limtis of moderation I can. It is my willpower as you AA'ers refer to your higher power.

Look I am not trying to create an argument here but saying moderation will never work is not true and discouraging. A behaviour modification can work.

Behaviours can be modifed, lifestyles can be altered and obsessions can be kept under control with professional help and self determination.

So in conclusion I say one can try and can be successful as long as one is determined.
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Old 01-20-2007, 12:14 AM
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wow, I can't help but to chime in. First I find it interesting that there are so many different thoughts regarding Categories, and levels of alcoholism. I read in this post where there are those questioning where knowledge of certain facts come from etc.

While I do find the conversation interesting, I question categorizing alcoholics, and moderation for an alcoholic, and I will suggest why I feel this way. First of all, I do come from a long line of Alcoholics. To suggest that there of varying degrees of alcoholism is like saying who stinks less ? Stink is stink. Alcoholism is just that. If a person has a problem with alcohol..ie., can't put it down, wake and drink, binge drinkers, whatever, and that person is powerless over alcohol, they are by definition an alcoholic. Not a lite alcoholic, a weekend alcoholic, or a heavy alcoholic.

Attempting Moderation can work, sure. If it does - and long term, then that person is excercising power over alcohol and by definition, is not an alcoholic. I would not even consider condemning anyone with this label, only that person can decide if the label fits. Unfortunately for me, it fits like a glove. I don't need to describe how I drank or frequency or amounts. If I could drink in moderation, then I would probably not be reading and posting to this site right now.

Is it a disease, hereditary, environmental, a political agenda? I'll leave that for others to seek. For me, I seek sobriety, and that means no moderation.

Best to all....
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Old 01-20-2007, 12:40 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Moderation Management
http://moderation.org/

I joined Sober Recovery.
To me...recovery is finding a new life
by not drinking alcohol.

This can happen for alcoholics or problem drinkers
or heavy drinkers or alcohol abusers or binge drinkers

Recovery can not happen for active drinkers.

JMO
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Old 01-20-2007, 02:11 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ay100 View Post
Not everybody in this forum is a full blown alcoholic. Some are troubled and disturbed by their behaviour and come here to seek advise. I speak on behalf of those people who are not yet alcoholics.
Seek answers does not make a person an alcoholic.
What an alcoholic is... someone who is affected by alcohol to a point of it being an addiction OR a control that they can not handle.

Full blown alcoholic?

There are no degrees of being an alcoholic. You either are or you are not.
My body<<< put alcohol inside>>>> alcohol
You end up with someone who can not say no to more alcohol. My control is gone when alcohol is added. I do not need be sleeping in the gutter before I become an alcoholic. There is no caste system with alcohol. It can have the same affect on the rich as well as the poor. Male as much as female. Young as much as old.

Originally Posted by ay100 View Post
A behaviour modification can work.
"If" you are not an alcoholic.

An alcoholic in denial is still an alcoholic.
An alcoholic that has never had a drink so they don't yet know if they are an alcoholic is still an alcoholic.
Alcoholics can not moderate.

If you find that you can moderate... you are not an alcoholic.
If you find that you "can not" moderate... well we could help you find solutions.
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Old 01-20-2007, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CarolD View Post
Moderation Management
http://moderation.org/

I joined Sober Recovery.
To me...recovery is finding a new life
by not drinking alcohol.

This can happen for alcoholics or problem drinkers
or heavy drinkers or alcohol abusers or binge drinkers

Recovery can not happen for active drinkers.

JMO
Carol,

Are you suggesting that anyone attempting moderation or espousing the idea that moderation can work (is working) for them should post at http://moderation.org/ instead of SR?

I ask this as I have been concerned that people like me, that argue moderation might be able to work for some (hopefully me - I admit), are viewed by the majority of SR as unhelpful to their own recovery? I might be wrong here but I would rather post elsewhere than affect another persons thinking (in a bad way) whilst they are trying to recover?

Carol? Anyone else?
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Old 01-20-2007, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GettinSober View Post
Carol,

Are you suggesting that anyone attempting moderation or espousing the idea that moderation can work (is working) for them should post at http://moderation.org/ instead of SR?

I ask this as I have been concerned that people like me, that argue moderation might be able to work for some (hopefully me - I admit), are viewed by the majority of SR as unhelpful to their own recovery? I might be wrong here but I would rather post elsewhere than affect another persons thinking (in a bad way) whilst they are trying to recover?

Carol? Anyone else?
I'll chime is as "anyone else". I've been told (over and over) that I can't get anyone else sober and I can't make anyone else drunk, so I don't see anything wrong with discussion (or spirited but civil debate) on any topic related to recovery. As others have said, most alcoholics try moderation at some point during their drinking careers. This would seem to make moderation a topic related to recovery. I suspect Carol posted the link to provide a resource for practical details on moderation as most people who post here have not found success in moderation.

For me, with my personal history, attempting to moderate would be just another piece of evidence pointing to my obsession with alcohol. I don't believe that I could have found what I've found in recovery if I had been able to successfully moderate my drinking. I needed to accept that when I drink things go badly in order to discover that alcohol is just not a requirement for a happy life.

One size fits all statements about recovery are a risky proposition but so tempting to make. Most of the people I know who are successful in recovery are very passionate about it and that passion can lead us to forget that we are not all the same square peg that needs to be pounded into the same round hole. Maybe it's safe to say that if you are an alcoholic, you are better off not drinking and you'll have an easier time of finding serenity if you stop looking for it in all the wrong places. For sure I can say that I am and I did.
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Old 01-20-2007, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ay100 View Post
I respect everyone's opinion here. But here is my 2 cents on the subject. Every individual who has problems with drinking does not necessarrily an alcoholic or in other words there are degrees to alcoholism. Some can not go through a day without having an "eye opener" early in the morning and others drink only at night. There are also "binfge" drinkers or "problem drinkers". While I agree alcholosim is a disease and it is a progressive one that eventually wrecks the individual's life, there are some individuals who after years of drinking senseless moderated thier drinking and remained within the boundries of moderation.

If I can give a parallel example to this is as follows. Cigarette smoking is as bad as alcoholism and highly addictivte. A physical addiction like alcohol. There are some people who smoke on and off. I know a few people who smoke 3 months and do not pick up a cigarette for another 6 months or a year. (And yes they inhale). I know sevarl people whom drank as much as an alcoholic and considered as alcoholic by everyone, stopped binging and moderated thier drinking as normal people.

So what I am getting at is this: It is a YMMV thing, it is the strength of the will power. Let's do not categorize everybody in one class. Some individuals can successfully moderate.

For someone who is hoping they arent an alcoholic,...you sure think you know all about alcoholism. Their arent any "types" of alcoholics. Only alcoholics. You tell yourself this so you can believe you are not one. I dont blame you though,...as we all went through this phase. There are, however, "stages" of alcoholism. The first stage is where we get into minor troubles with our drinking and tell ourselves that its no big deal,....everyone has this happen once in a while or everyone drinks and drives, and we just happened to get caught. In the 2nd stage, our family and friends begin to notice our drinking as a problem and they may or may not even say anything to us yet (causing us to believe that if nobody says anything, it must not be a problem). If they DO say something, however, we go into damage control mode. We deny, deny, deny. Close to the end of the 2nd stage, or beginning of the third, we, deep down, KNOW we are an alcoholic, but, we tell ourselves "Thank God Im a 'functional alcoholic' ". We tell ourselves that since we get to work everyday, dont drink in the morning, havent lost any friends or family yet, havent lost our license to drive, or home, that we must be able to manage it. That is the biggest lie we tell ourselves, next to telling ourselves we arent alcoholic,... in this disease. Functional Alcoholics,...DO NOT EXIST. It is not a "type" of alcoholic. It is a "Phase" of alcoholism. Every single one of us had a point in our drinking careers where we could still say that we still had our job, home, family, relationships, license, no DUI's, and no other consequences from drinking. ....YET...

Then we did. It happens like a landslide. A tidal wave. We cross deeper into Third Phase Alcoholism and we are no longer 'Functional'. This is where friends and definitely family, begin to mention our drinking to us. They even sometimes plead with us. Ultimata are issued. We lose respect from others. The job goes downhill or altogether. DUI's enter our lives. Alcoholism grabs us my the ears and violently shakes us into seeing what we have become. Once we see, we try to picture our lives without drinking. We cannot. Nothing will be fun. Watching others drink and have a good time will "kill us". We MUST find a way to still be able to drink. Thats where Moderation Management comes in. Thats where we think "ANYTHING,....ILL TRY ANYTHING,...as long as I can continue to drink".

Thats where we lose many. But, that is also where we gain alot of people who FINALLY surrender. They let go of that rope and just fall. Its just too bad that some alcoholics prolong their torture and suffering by adding on that extra time to their active addiction by "telling themselves" that they can moderate. Alcoholics never drank in moderation, because thats not how we like to drink. Drinking one or two is pointless to an alcoholic. What makes an alcoholic think that ,...yes,....I think, yes,...NOW I wil be cool with only one? I will tell you. FEAR. FEAR of NOT drinking.
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Old 01-20-2007, 06:54 AM
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By the way,...Steve58,....there was nothing harsh or judgemental about my post. I stated FACT. What I posted is the 'rule' in Alcoholism as it pertains to our family and friends. A few cases here or there otherwise, do not change the rule. They are the exception. Exceptions PROVE the RULE. It being the RULE, means MOST times what I outlined in this threads beginning post WILL happen. Ask your mother, father, girlfriend or any one else in your life what THEY would think of you if you were an alcoholic and wanted to "try" and drink socially or moderately. You will find I am dead-right.
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by earlybird View Post
By the way,...Steve58,....there was nothing harsh or judgemental about my post. I stated FACT. What I posted is the 'rule' in Alcoholism as it pertains to our family and friends. A few cases here or there otherwise, do not change the rule. They are the exception. Exceptions PROVE the RULE. It being the RULE, means MOST times what I outlined in this threads beginning post WILL happen. Ask your mother, father, girlfriend or any one else in your life what THEY would think of you if you were an alcoholic and wanted to "try" and drink socially or moderately. You will find I am dead-right.
Earlybird,

you are so right about exceptions. Who knows maybe I am going to be one of the exceptions. I am not denying the rule. It is a matter of control. I am strong, I feel strong and so far I am doing quite all right. So my "Higher Power" is my "will power".
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:39 AM
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Lotta hairsplitting and doubletalk in this thread. When we are talking about alcoholism are we not talking about addiction here? Types of alcoholism yadda yadda...nonsense. And any smoker who can pick up now and then is not an "addict". Once addicted to any substance I do not believe it can be moderated. And of course there will be a lot of heated debate about the possiblity of "moderation" on a forum entitled "alcoholism". I don't believe any definition of alcoholism would encompass and ability to moderate as I do not then believe you are an alcoholic. Suffice it to say if you still hold out hope that you can moderate....you do not believe your are an alcoholic (and fantastic if you are not!). Once you have fully registered that you are an alcoholic and accepted as such, moderation simply is not an option. Any poster on here who truly believes they can moderate, truly does not believe they are an alcoholic...which is a personal matter that only the individual can truly decide....no one else.
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Old 01-20-2007, 10:45 AM
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Good news everyone. I successfully moderated again last night. I was meeting with a few friends of mine for a business meeting (we started our own business about 6 months ago). And where I met them is an hour and half away from where I live. Well after we discussed progress and whatnot they decided to start drinking, A lot. They bought two 24 cases of budlight and there was four of us. I drank one beer enjoying the taste but not even slightly obsessing about a buzz. Then at around 12:30 am when I started to get annoyed with the fact that everyone was drunk (not because I was craving alcohol but because being sober around a bunch of drunks can be annoying for many other reasons). So I left and got home at about 2:00 am and took some melatonin and fell asleep around 3. Of course everyone bitched and moaned about me not getting wasted with them but it really didn't bother me. If anything it made me feel good to know people are going to miss hanging out with me because they still have to get wasted to think they are having a good time. Meanwhile I wake up today without a hangover.
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Old 01-20-2007, 11:07 AM
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I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. It reminds me of the fable of the blind people who came across an elephant, and after examining it, were asked to describe it, and they each had a different impression of what the elephant looked like, because each had only examined a small part of it. So it goes here.

As I may have commented, the more I read, the less I know about this thing. There is simply too much conflicting information out there.

I'm not trying to alter conventional wisdom. The cases are overwhelming. It seems for most, after a certain point (determined by individual, not quantity or time) moderation is not an option. But the same conventional wisdom seems to know that a large majority of these people must follow certain paths themselves, and the moderation attempts are well documented.

I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know about myself yet, but I read what I can find, and incorporated life experience into it, and try to do the best for myself.

I don’t think anyone here has the right to lay down hard and fast facts, or tell someone this will not work, don’t even try it, your an alcoholic, and that’s that!

Most agree there are many degrees (and/or phases) of alcoholism. For each of them I would suggest there are at least 10 times as many recovery roads.

I wish you all well, and I will report in from time to time on my progress.

Take care,
Steve
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Old 01-20-2007, 11:28 AM
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Good luck dude! But I've got to disagree with you on one thing - Best is right, if you can moderate, you're not an alcoholic! The two terms are mutually exclusive.
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Old 01-20-2007, 12:32 PM
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paul, I agree with you on that...

...then attempting modertation is almost a necessary step to dicovering that one is an alcoholic after all it is not like there is a test.

I know pleny of people that drank very heavily when we where younger, those are the ones I stopped hanging out with when I couldn't moderate my drinking and they could.
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