CarolD

Hi scratchy Welcome to the SR Alcoholism Forum!

Signal30

Thanks scratchy, as Popeyed said, " I yam what I yam."


On dateline months ago the lady that created "MM", ( I think it stands for Method Management), anyway, it was a meeting type program for people who try to moderate what they drink.
Well the founder blacked out, went the wrong way on the highway, and killed two people.
The program she founded apparently didn't work for her.

I'm not saying that other ways won't work. I just know AA was the only way for me.

Taiman

You can argue till the cows come home about whether someone is an alcoholic or not. AA tries to separate big or problem drinker from alcoholics in its book but fails, but no offence to the AAers here but the big book has holes you can drive a truck through.

Many normal drinkers can crave a drink from time to time.

Personally I disagree with the AMA and don't buy the concept that alcoholism is a disease.

Now can a problem drinker control drink? Yes some can HOWEVER many can't. If you find you are unable to successfully control drink, be honest with yourself and quit.

Personally I think this forum is a great place to ask this question.

GlassPrisoner

Read under the influence Taiman. It explains, from a medical, scientific and physiological standpoint that alcoholics are physically different than non-alcoholics. The craving AA talks about is produced by our inability to create certain enzymes that break down the alcohol in our system, and we end up with too much acetaldehyde in our system. They just didn't know this in 1935, but they knew we were different.

BuryMeWithIt

And that is exactly what I plan on doing. If I find myself unable to moderate and I end up where I was a month ago I will be quitting completely. And I also thought that this forum was a great place to ask this question but apparently so many believe that you either have a disease or you don't, stipulating that there is no middle ground. I'm assuming it was AA that hammered that into everyones minds because everyone who has replied with that intent also seems to favor AA. Let me guess, is it something like "you have a disease, you are powerless over it, give yourself over to a higher power to see the error of your ways?". What if the reason you drink is purely depression, is the disease depression or is it still being an alcoholic. You cure the depression and the alcoholism goes away, or you stop the alcoholism and you have a depressed dry drunk. It just seems like AA should be focusing on the reason behind the drinking. I don't know, that's just my two cents. Thanks for reading my opinions.

GettinSober

Without this becoming some kind of mutual love fest I find myself agreeing with you again. This forum is split between hard line AA'ers and people trying a different approach. The only thing that depresses me about AA'ers is that most (not all but the vast majority) only seem to believe in one way, whereas Non-AA'ers seem to be more open minded?

I also don't believe in the whole powerslessness, disease, strange cell structure argument either for what it is worth.

That said - if I fail to moderate like a normal person (I haven't tried yet - I'm 17 days sober and not white knuckling it in the slightest) then I might turn to AA if I can't do it by myself. Even then I won't be buying into the powerless bit though. Sorry.

Tazman53

Actually the average alcoholic mind is of above average intelligence (at least in the beginning), alcoholism is a disease that does not have a single thing to do with intelligence. Alcoholics have three things in common:

1. A mental obsession with alcohol, I am an alcoholic, I think about alcohol all the time, to prove this very fact I am here right now writing about ALCOHOL! I used to obsess about when I would have my first drink of the day, now that I have quit drinking I obsess about not drinking ALCOHOL. I went through a 10 year period of trying to quit/moderate my drinking on my own and obsessing about ALCOHOL! In order to stay sober I need to obsess on not drinking ALCOHOL! My urge to drink has been lifted but alcohol is always in the back of my mind.

2. A physical craving for alcohol! As an alcoholic unlike normal people if I have one single drink I physically develop a craving for another drink followed by another drink and another....... I no longer have the physical craving for alcohol because there is no longer any alcohol in my system and as long as I do not have that first drink I will never have that physical craving again. One drink will cause me as an alcoholic to physically crave MORE! NORMAL PEOPLE ARE NOT THIS WAY, in the early stages of the progression of alcoholism many alcoholics do not have this physical craving but as they continue to progress in the disease the physical craving happens and never leaves even though they may quit drinking and not drink for 10 years, that first drink will immediately bring the physical craving back.

3. Spiritual Malady, as an alcoholic I know that spiritually I suffered, when I drank (even when I was sober sometimes), the totality of my life revolved around drinking and myself, I could have cared less about other people unless they provided me with something, sex, alcohol, money, drugs, or a smoke. As my disease progressed things became more and more about me, I hurt people left and right to please myself. Spiritually I was (and still am, but better) self centered and egotistical yet stangely enough I was at the same time towards the end hating myself for everything I did and did not do, I really did not give a damn about anyone, I thought I did... but looking back I see how many people I do now care about were hurt by me. I could write a book on this so I will stop there.

Alcoholism is a progressive disease as a result the three things I mention above progressively got worse as long as I drank.

By stopping drinking long enough to get all the alcohol out of my system I have elminated #2, #1 will always be with me.

#3 is what will determine whether I drink again or not, it will also determine if I will be a drunk, a miserable dry drunk, or a happy sober recovered alcoholic. Right now I am a happy recovered alcoholic and as long as I continue to follow directions and progress in the steps I will remain so. Do not get me wrong, life goes on and crap will happen, but if I am working my program and following directions the crap will be dealt with and overcome or addressed, they will pass.

GettinSober

Taz - I honestly think that's the best post I have read on here thus far.

I identified with a lot of what you posted in 1 & 2. I'm not sure about 3 and if that has applied to me (yet) but I can see how it could - if it hasn't already a little bit.

PS - one small debating point. I was talking about a weakness of mind - not intelligence - but as said - a brilliant post by you all the same.

Tazman53

You know I just erased a whole lot of personal experience along with references to scientific studies that all concur that alcoholism is a disease, because as Came2beleive said so well:

Signal30

Oops, I stand corrected "MM" actually stands for Moderate Management. Reguardless, as many have stated, if you have to plan to moderate with ratios, numbers etc., when you drink, thats kind of a hint that there's likely a problem.


Again, just my opinion.

resentful wife

Hi All,
I usually read the Family Forums and have only posted a couple of times but I had to jump in.
Not all who join S.R. a alcoholic, we are here seeking answers as Carol stated.Nor is the alcoholic mind weak.IMO it takes a strong mind to override what ones body is so plainly trying to tell it (fog,shakes,muddled thinking) But IMO it also takes a strong mind to see feel that they have to change what for them has been normal for so long.
Moderation is over rated. My husband tries it nightly. ie: 14 beers instead of 18.
And while I'm here, note to Buryme, Have you thought of how much people of "21" drink and the peer pressure you'll be under for trying to moderate while out parting with your friends? But good luck to both you and gettinsober

Tazman53

resentful wife thanks for bringing out the other victims side of alcoholism, the innocent side. It took my wife being right on the edge of leaving my sorry drunk ass before I stopped, and I did stop for myself, because in a moment of clarity I saw death staring me in the face. I knew that if I lost my wife and kids I would lose it all and drink my self to death and being a beer drinker it would have been a long slow alcoholic death.

I knew she was not BSing me about leaving, she threw her first husband out because he was an alcoholic and would not stop, that and she was already working with a real estate agent on getting her and the kids a place.