Moderation drinking? can it work?
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,498
Katz, I am not an AA person.
But, the idea of Moderation Managment scares me to death. Audrey Kishline, who founded MM in 1993 was convicted of vehicular manslauter in 2000 after she killed a man and his daughter. She was sent to jail. The point with MM is how do you know if you can do it. Audrey believed she could do it. And, it only takes one moment when you cannot do it, to kill people and end up spending the rest of your life in jail.
And, I do not believe weaning is the best way to deal with stopping drinking. I tried it, many times, After a few days my drinking would increase. It was so much easier to just stop. That is just my opinion.
But, the idea of Moderation Managment scares me to death. Audrey Kishline, who founded MM in 1993 was convicted of vehicular manslauter in 2000 after she killed a man and his daughter. She was sent to jail. The point with MM is how do you know if you can do it. Audrey believed she could do it. And, it only takes one moment when you cannot do it, to kill people and end up spending the rest of your life in jail.
And, I do not believe weaning is the best way to deal with stopping drinking. I tried it, many times, After a few days my drinking would increase. It was so much easier to just stop. That is just my opinion.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: some where / no where
Posts: 1,019
Wow!
Carol hit on a good point when she said that many alcoholics try this. I tried MM, but it didn't work for me. The main reason it didn't work is that I was unwilling to do the 30 abstinence period which is required before you begin the MM program.
Kats, I'm curious to know how you found the manditory 30 abstinence peroid before you started MM.
Steve 58 How did it go for you?
I think the abstinence period helps seperate the real alcoholics from people who might be able to practice moderation. In my case, I would have gone through withdrawal if I stopped all together... Heck, if I could stop for 30 days, why would I even start again?????
Back to my personal experience...
I skipped the 30 days abstinence peroid, and went right for the guidelines. I found out that when I was controlling my drinking, I wasn't enjoying it. When I enjoyed drinking, I wasn't controlling it. Later, when I got AA's "Big Book" I read this very experience is very common among alcoholics.
I also read "The idea that he/she will one day control his/her drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker."
In a nutshell, when I tried the MM guidelines, I hated every sip. I figured out quickly that I'd be better off:
a) Drinking as much as I want.
or
b) Not drinking at all.
MM was a prolonged hell for me, and it was worse than being drunk all the time.
chip
Carol hit on a good point when she said that many alcoholics try this. I tried MM, but it didn't work for me. The main reason it didn't work is that I was unwilling to do the 30 abstinence period which is required before you begin the MM program.
Kats, I'm curious to know how you found the manditory 30 abstinence peroid before you started MM.
Steve 58 How did it go for you?
I think the abstinence period helps seperate the real alcoholics from people who might be able to practice moderation. In my case, I would have gone through withdrawal if I stopped all together... Heck, if I could stop for 30 days, why would I even start again?????
Back to my personal experience...
I skipped the 30 days abstinence peroid, and went right for the guidelines. I found out that when I was controlling my drinking, I wasn't enjoying it. When I enjoyed drinking, I wasn't controlling it. Later, when I got AA's "Big Book" I read this very experience is very common among alcoholics.
I also read "The idea that he/she will one day control his/her drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker."
In a nutshell, when I tried the MM guidelines, I hated every sip. I figured out quickly that I'd be better off:
a) Drinking as much as I want.
or
b) Not drinking at all.
MM was a prolonged hell for me, and it was worse than being drunk all the time.
chip
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 25
I just want to say thankyou for this thread. Although I have never heard of MM, I have just embarked on a 30 day abstinence period. I am on Day 6. Already the comment by Chip "Heck, if I could stop for 30 days, why would I even start again?????" has struck something in me.
I always had a kind of cut-off point with my drinking. Once I was nice and buzzy (ie. tipsy to moderately drunk) I didn't want any more. Until it wore off a bit and then I would "top up". I never became off-my-face intoxicated and never threw up, yet always looked forward to my first drink of the day (sometimes very much indeed, heading straight for the bottle as soon I walked in the door after work). Days off were rare.
I guess my 30 days is a short term goal to see if I can do it. A bit like one day at a time - except the 'day' is thirty. To 'test' if my psycological addiction is also physical, if you like. Interestingly, although it is still early days for me, already I am planning to go for another month afterwards. Although I like the notion of having a glass of wine with friends every once in a while, I don't want to drink like I did any more and if that means not at all then so be it.
Best of luck everyone. This site has become very important for me and I really appreciate all your stories. XXX
I always had a kind of cut-off point with my drinking. Once I was nice and buzzy (ie. tipsy to moderately drunk) I didn't want any more. Until it wore off a bit and then I would "top up". I never became off-my-face intoxicated and never threw up, yet always looked forward to my first drink of the day (sometimes very much indeed, heading straight for the bottle as soon I walked in the door after work). Days off were rare.
I guess my 30 days is a short term goal to see if I can do it. A bit like one day at a time - except the 'day' is thirty. To 'test' if my psycological addiction is also physical, if you like. Interestingly, although it is still early days for me, already I am planning to go for another month afterwards. Although I like the notion of having a glass of wine with friends every once in a while, I don't want to drink like I did any more and if that means not at all then so be it.
Best of luck everyone. This site has become very important for me and I really appreciate all your stories. XXX
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
I can do it. I can do it....
But first I would need find some handcuffs and a person I could trust.
Handcuffs so I can't get up and grab a beer for myself and the person of trust that would only give me 2 beers and no more.
Some feel it can be done. I have not met a person yet that has done it. I know I can't. Alcohol is progressive in nature. Moderation may work for a time but before we know it (just like when I first started drinking) We end up wanting and needing more for that same buzz.
But first I would need find some handcuffs and a person I could trust.
Handcuffs so I can't get up and grab a beer for myself and the person of trust that would only give me 2 beers and no more.
Some feel it can be done. I have not met a person yet that has done it. I know I can't. Alcohol is progressive in nature. Moderation may work for a time but before we know it (just like when I first started drinking) We end up wanting and needing more for that same buzz.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: derbyshire uk
Posts: 73
half measures availl us nothing
what a great way 2 put something accross in life in general not just as a drinking issue. im 34 days without a single drop of beer. its been a breeze compared 2 some of the poor peolpes posts ive read onsr.and 4 that im very thankfull (to whom im not sure lol) as i dont belive in god i just put it down 2 my own self will and grit lol i have tryed moderation 4 yrs and in my opinion the jurys still out on the whole concept. i too know ppl that all of a sudden go from being massive drinkers 2 ur normal 2-3 beers a nite and r perfectly happy and have no desire 2 drink more than that. but.... i also know drinkers that continue 2 drink 10-15 beers everyday and r very happy and dont seem 2 have any problems whether it be physical or mental or finantial. and i say fair play 2 them if thats how they wanna live then thats cool. live and let live is my moto. and anyway who am i 2 judge when i was twice as bad as them lol. as for mm i think its a state of mind that ur in that determins if u can do it or not. BUT i suspect for 99.9% of ppl that post on here its not an option.ive got to 34 days and even in that very short period out of my life things r so so so very much better. i have the respect of my family and loved 1s back something which i never thought poss 34 days ago but i knew i had 2 give it a shot and try and acheive that. hell even my ex wife talks 2 me now lolololol. i have more money, better health, im fitter,sharper,i look better,more mentaly sound,no hangovers,and im loved again......must i go on???? so why the hell wud i want 2 drink again ever??? i do know that my situation is not unique like many others on sr i wouldnt put my family,friends and loved 1s through that liveing hell ever again. just imagine how they wud feel if lets say we was at a family meel and i said ok ill just have a couple???? wtf would they be thinking? theyd be like yeah mick we heard that 2534346372 times and all the hard work over the past months wud be shattered in 1 milli second so 4 me mm will never be an option not becouse i dont think i cud do it becouse doin total abstinence has taught me 1 thing and that is if u want something enuff and u try enuff u can acheve anything but ill never ty mm becouse i know my life is a billion times better without beer
mick
mick
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 363
Just thougth I'd throw in my 2 cents.
I've been trying to do something about my drinking for many years now. In that time, I've tried moderation and abstinence.
Abstinence worked best for me, for a short time. I'd get maybe a few weeks, once 100 days, and then relapse. Currently with the help of antabuse and REBT I'm at 7.5 months and feeling pretty good about that.
I'd usually try moderation after a particularly successful binge. A successful binge for me would be enough time off so that I be able to drink for many days straight and still have enough time left off to get over the worst of the shaking, sweating, and puking before I had to go to work. Not dying was key to my successful binge as well. I'd feel so good about it that I would limit myself to 4 or 5 beers a night until weekend. Then, look out.
Abstinence for me is the only way to cure my alcohol addiction.
Please note that I am not an AA person either and I reject most of their basic tenets such as powerlesness and disease theory.(Me only, no debate needed on this thread please)
Moderation would have worked for me IF the reasons for my abuse were that I enjoyed the taste of wine, or beer, or I was satisfied with that little itty buzz.
Moderation may be an option for some people, but after much experimentation and considerable thought on the matter, not for me.
Best wishes, and keep well
Ron
I've been trying to do something about my drinking for many years now. In that time, I've tried moderation and abstinence.
Abstinence worked best for me, for a short time. I'd get maybe a few weeks, once 100 days, and then relapse. Currently with the help of antabuse and REBT I'm at 7.5 months and feeling pretty good about that.
I'd usually try moderation after a particularly successful binge. A successful binge for me would be enough time off so that I be able to drink for many days straight and still have enough time left off to get over the worst of the shaking, sweating, and puking before I had to go to work. Not dying was key to my successful binge as well. I'd feel so good about it that I would limit myself to 4 or 5 beers a night until weekend. Then, look out.
Abstinence for me is the only way to cure my alcohol addiction.
Please note that I am not an AA person either and I reject most of their basic tenets such as powerlesness and disease theory.(Me only, no debate needed on this thread please)
Moderation would have worked for me IF the reasons for my abuse were that I enjoyed the taste of wine, or beer, or I was satisfied with that little itty buzz.
Moderation may be an option for some people, but after much experimentation and considerable thought on the matter, not for me.
Best wishes, and keep well
Ron
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 363
Hi Firstnm
Here's a link to moderation management: http://moderation.org/
The 30 day abstinence is a period for 30 days without alcohol which I think they use to help decide if moderation will work for an individual.
Best wishes
Ron
Here's a link to moderation management: http://moderation.org/
The 30 day abstinence is a period for 30 days without alcohol which I think they use to help decide if moderation will work for an individual.
Best wishes
Ron
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
I think if alcohol has already brought you to your knees in some sense....it would seem most sensible to discard it completely. The preoccupation or simple desire to reintroduce anything into your life (person/thing/substance) that has caused you enormous distress and/or pain seems like problematic thinking to me (self sabotaging or desire to control). Why not simply give it up altogether?
For me, yes I wish I had the ability to have the one great glass of wine with dinner. It's just not possible...sooner or later I will actually crave or strive for absolute oblivion if the circumstances summon it within me. I need to learn how to suit up and sit at the table of life....purely ME...without any substance that alters my thinking. I crave clarity of thought and sound judgement these days...alcohol will always hinder me if it's in me.
For me, yes I wish I had the ability to have the one great glass of wine with dinner. It's just not possible...sooner or later I will actually crave or strive for absolute oblivion if the circumstances summon it within me. I need to learn how to suit up and sit at the table of life....purely ME...without any substance that alters my thinking. I crave clarity of thought and sound judgement these days...alcohol will always hinder me if it's in me.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 666
"the success of total abstainence is poor at best."
Total abstinence to me means total success. If you totally abstain, I guarantee your life will get better. Mine did, along with just about every AA member I know of - even those not affiliated with AA. I'd say that's successful.
Mike in Boston
Total abstinence to me means total success. If you totally abstain, I guarantee your life will get better. Mine did, along with just about every AA member I know of - even those not affiliated with AA. I'd say that's successful.
Mike in Boston
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: some where / no where
Posts: 1,019
Best spoke about handcuffs...
I had crazy ideas about putting locks with timers on my beer fridge. I even tried to get my wife to use a combination lock that I didn't know the combo to "cut me off" with. Later, in sobriety, I look back at the insanity of these endeavours.
The interesting thing to note about these endeavours is that they rely on a power outside of myself to deal with my drinking problem. At this early stage, I started to realize that my problem is greater than I am. I started realizing that I can't fix this problem alone. Even the fact that I had to look at a program like MM showed me that my alcohol problem was too big for me to beat on my own. If I was so smart, why did I need MM to tell me how to drink like a normal person??? If I could be a normal drinker, why was I googling alcoholism on the computer and posting in an alcoholism forum??? Why did I need to cry out for help??
All this stuff helped me realize that I am an alcoholic. It also helped me realize that I want to quit drinking and be free from this burden.
I rely on a power greater than myself to solve my problem today. It isn't a magical lock for the beer fridge ;-)) I admitted that I am powerless over alcohol, and this surrender was the first step into freedom.
For me, my addiction to alcohol will stop at NOTHING to get me to drink again. I will try and justify it right to my grave....
It wasn't untill I joined AA that I aquired the tools to fix the problem, day by day. I can now say that the craving and obsession has been lifted from me. I consider my sobriety to be a gift, and I consider it to be a miracle.
chip
I had crazy ideas about putting locks with timers on my beer fridge. I even tried to get my wife to use a combination lock that I didn't know the combo to "cut me off" with. Later, in sobriety, I look back at the insanity of these endeavours.
The interesting thing to note about these endeavours is that they rely on a power outside of myself to deal with my drinking problem. At this early stage, I started to realize that my problem is greater than I am. I started realizing that I can't fix this problem alone. Even the fact that I had to look at a program like MM showed me that my alcohol problem was too big for me to beat on my own. If I was so smart, why did I need MM to tell me how to drink like a normal person??? If I could be a normal drinker, why was I googling alcoholism on the computer and posting in an alcoholism forum??? Why did I need to cry out for help??
All this stuff helped me realize that I am an alcoholic. It also helped me realize that I want to quit drinking and be free from this burden.
I rely on a power greater than myself to solve my problem today. It isn't a magical lock for the beer fridge ;-)) I admitted that I am powerless over alcohol, and this surrender was the first step into freedom.
For me, my addiction to alcohol will stop at NOTHING to get me to drink again. I will try and justify it right to my grave....
It wasn't untill I joined AA that I aquired the tools to fix the problem, day by day. I can now say that the craving and obsession has been lifted from me. I consider my sobriety to be a gift, and I consider it to be a miracle.
chip
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 61
Chip:
I didn't do the 30 day abstinence period. As I said in my previous message, MM didn't work for me, however, I did find that I drank less while I was participating on their message board. I also met a number of other members who were enjoying great success with the MM program. I also said in an earlier message that it's my belief that if you are a hardcore, daily drinker, I don't believe MM will work.
And to Carol -- I *know* this is not "Drinking in Moderation" -- I never said it was. I am here because I want to quit, abstain, climb onto the wagon, stop, stay sober. I was simply relating my experience of MM because the question was asked. I think MM is a viable option for SOME, but certainly not for me, and not for all drinkers.
I didn't do the 30 day abstinence period. As I said in my previous message, MM didn't work for me, however, I did find that I drank less while I was participating on their message board. I also met a number of other members who were enjoying great success with the MM program. I also said in an earlier message that it's my belief that if you are a hardcore, daily drinker, I don't believe MM will work.
And to Carol -- I *know* this is not "Drinking in Moderation" -- I never said it was. I am here because I want to quit, abstain, climb onto the wagon, stop, stay sober. I was simply relating my experience of MM because the question was asked. I think MM is a viable option for SOME, but certainly not for me, and not for all drinkers.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: .
Posts: 299
"when I was controlling my drinking, I wasn't enjoying it. When I enjoyed drinking, I wasn't controlling it."
Chip's neat phrase sums up my experience too. There may be many people who can learn to drink socially, to take or leave the thing. But I've tried far too many times and too many different ways to want to try and fail again. The "benefits" of social drinking are in any case so tiny compared to the benefits of not drinking for me. It's a quite rational choice, in every way.
That's me. YM, of course, MV...
Chip's neat phrase sums up my experience too. There may be many people who can learn to drink socially, to take or leave the thing. But I've tried far too many times and too many different ways to want to try and fail again. The "benefits" of social drinking are in any case so tiny compared to the benefits of not drinking for me. It's a quite rational choice, in every way.
That's me. YM, of course, MV...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 51
After a 35 year drinking career, with the last 10 or 12 years being a succession of 10 day or so round the clock drinking binges, followed by extremely unpleasant detox periods.......I'm now just ten days or so away from 6 months sober.
I've completely lost the desire to drink, I can't even imagine wanting to drink in moderation....it's over, it's done with....I'm so happy about it and so much a better person for the change.
I failed at all kinds of drinking, moderation included..it's the only thing in life that I can think of that I can honestly say I'm happy it beat me, that I failed at it.
Scott
I've completely lost the desire to drink, I can't even imagine wanting to drink in moderation....it's over, it's done with....I'm so happy about it and so much a better person for the change.
I failed at all kinds of drinking, moderation included..it's the only thing in life that I can think of that I can honestly say I'm happy it beat me, that I failed at it.
Scott
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 51
I drank very heavily for about fifteen years, then spent another twenty trying to cut down and drink moderately. And I could drink moderately for a few days, a few weeks, a month or two. But then I found myself slipping deeper, drinking a bit more each night, suffering the consequences and obsessing about alcohol while I waited for the cocktail hour. Finally I got into AA, and I haven't had a drink for 850 days.
It's more complicated that some people think, but at the end of the day, moderation is just too much hard work for me. And I like the sober life I have now, which includes meetings, a sponsor, and real peace of mind.
It's more complicated that some people think, but at the end of the day, moderation is just too much hard work for me. And I like the sober life I have now, which includes meetings, a sponsor, and real peace of mind.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
I was speaking with a woman at an AA meeting just last night. She said she had been sober about 8 years and then "went back out there" for about 2 years then came back to AA and has been sober a number of years again. She told me she never got drunk in those 2 years out there. I was shocked. I asked her why she came back to AA then. She said her thoughts again became obessive..she found herself always in wait as to when she could drink and then it difficult when she did. She was just as miserable as when she was drinking full out.
Kinda echo's that wonderful quote of Chip's
Kinda echo's that wonderful quote of Chip's
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: library
Posts: 131
No. I wasn't a super heavy drinker, just a heavy drinker (about 1 pint vodka per day) for ten years. I tried moderate drinking hundreds of times. Never worked. It took so much effort and it didn't leave me totally buzzed.
Finally about 2 1/2 years ago I saught help and it was the best decision I have ever made (except for marrying my husband and having my wonderful kids). I am not an AA'er (tried but definetly not for me) but did have intensive outpatient therapy, a great psychiatrist and a supportive family.
It wasn't until about the 2 year mark that things feell into place. I still follow the boards, DON"T COUNT DAYS (think of it as a lifestyle change) and have fully accepted that alcohol is no longer an option.
jane
Finally about 2 1/2 years ago I saught help and it was the best decision I have ever made (except for marrying my husband and having my wonderful kids). I am not an AA'er (tried but definetly not for me) but did have intensive outpatient therapy, a great psychiatrist and a supportive family.
It wasn't until about the 2 year mark that things feell into place. I still follow the boards, DON"T COUNT DAYS (think of it as a lifestyle change) and have fully accepted that alcohol is no longer an option.
jane
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